25fps AVI > NTSC DVD - am I doing this right? (AviSynth, CCE, DGPulldown

[fischkopf]

I am trying to convert a 25 fps AVI with XviD video (720x416, progressive I think, and no pre-existing black bars or borders) and MP3 audio into NTSC DVD format. I'm using an AviSynth script with CCE SP 2.70.02.11 to encode. I would like to know if I'm doing anything wrong and also to solicit suggestions. I'll outline my process below.

First though, here is a GSPot screenshot for the original AVI:


Now, on to the process.

1. Load AVI into VirtualDub, turn on full processing mode in the Audio menu, and save a WAV file.

2. Make a simple AviSynth script as follows:

AviSource("C:\Folder\Video.avi",false)
AddBorders(0,32,0,32)
AssumeFPS(25)
ConvertToYUY2()

3. Start a new project in CCE, add the AviSynth file (.avs extension), and edit the settings as shown in these images.

CCE - Encoder settings:


CCE - Encoder settings - Advanced:


CCE - Encoder settings - Picture Quality:


4. Use DGPulldown (25 -> 29.97) on the MPEG-2 file that CCE produced.

5. Start a new project in TMPGEnc DVD Author. Add the MPEG-2 file along with the WAV file I made in step 1 for the audio. No menus. Complete the project and output the files to desired folder.

(Yes, I'm aware I could have compressed the audio, but considering the already low quality original audio, compressing it yet again seemed unwise. Plus it is monoaural, and therefore smaller than typical stereo audio would be anyway.)

6. Finally, burn the files to a DVD+R with ImgBurn, ISO9660+UDF filesystem, bitsetting set to DVD-ROM.

That's it. Am I doing this correctly? One of the things I'm not fully sure on is the aspect ratio and borders. Not sure if the DGPulldown method is widely compatible either. Any suggestions on these things, or other matters, would be much appreciated!

[ecc]

I use HCEnc even with AVI to M2v files but is there a way to de-select pulldown in CCE (or does it not gray out the 2:3 and 3:2 buttons even when pulldown is not being applied) since you're going to be flagging it for 25-29.97 with DGPulldown?

[fischkopf]

Pulldown in CCE is deselected and unselectable, I assume because the output is set to 25 fps, which is the same as the source. I'm fairly certain the 2:3 and 3:2 radio buttons have no effect if pulldown is not selected.

[manono]

Hi-

CCE isn't applying pulldown there. Although there are things I'd do differently, your process will work fine. You provided lots of information. Good. But your AddBorders is off, and will give you a DVD with the wrong aspect ratio. If you really want to encode for 4:3 (are you sure about that?), then FitCD gives me:

LanczosResize(720,384,4,0,712,416)
AddBorders(0,48,0,48)

If for 16:9, then different again. I'm suspicious of the original AVI's resolution, as there aren't any 1.73:1 movies, or even very many 1.78:1 ones. That's if it's a movie and not a TV show. But if the original encoder knew what he was doing, then he could have cropped and resized so the AR was OK.

Get your Crops, AddBorders, and Resizes from FitCD is my advice. Oh, and I have Output TFF checked, the Offset line set for zero, and the Luminance Level set for 0-255. I'm not positive that's all correct, though.

[fischkopf]

I'm not clear on why one would resize it vertically only and then add larger borders. Wouldn't it be squished vertically? Not to be argumentative, but won't simply adding 32 on top and bottom with no resizing come out to 720x480, with no squishing? If this is incorrect as you say, please explain why.

The source is indeed 720x416 and was encoded from an old VHS movie. I'm not sure if 4:3 or 16:9 would be best. I just don't want the video distorted or chopped off on the sides. I do not presently have a widescreen TV, though I may get one someday.

I thought I read somewhere that CCE always outputs Top Field First anyway. Also, one of the guides I looked at (http://www.eggshellskull.com/pal2ntsc/) had a screenshot from an older version that lacked that option, so I was unsure it mattered.

[manono]

Not to be argumentative, but won't simply adding 32 on top and bottom with no resizing come out to 720x480, with no squishing?

Yes, if you're making another 1:1 AVI. But you're not. You're making a 4:3 DVD. That 720x480 VOB file should have everything looking slightly flattened (people looking slightly short and fat, a ball looking like someone's sitting on it), but at playback time it gets resized to 640x480 and everything becomes "normal" again.

It looks to me like you've read the Doom9 CCE guide. He does some things with which I don't agree, but you have the Green/Black rectangle in the Picture Settings screen just as he does, and not many people know to set it that way because it's not the default setting. And he also uses TFF with the Offset line set for zero:

Keep Output top field first stream checked unless you have a bottom field first stream (rare and normally only interlaced content).

The Offset line is a source of much confusion. It should always be set to 0, unless you're dealing with interlaced bottom field first content (in which case it should be set to 1).

Even that's confusing (and wrong) if the video is interlaced BFF, but in your case it's progressive and you want to make sure to encode for TFF. I believe it was once true that CCE output was always TFF, but it's no longer true, beginning with ver. 2.70.

http://www.doom9.org/mpg/cce270.htm

The Afterdawn guide has it right:

Interlaced video can be either TFF (Top Field First) or BFF (Bottom Field First). If Output top field first stream is checked CCE assumes the top field is dominant, meaning it needs to be displayed before the bottom field. If the bottom field is actually the dominant one, you'll need to either uncheck this box or set Offset line to 1. Unless there's some reason your playback device doesn't support bottom field first video, I'd recommend leaving Offset line at 0 and using the checkbox to set the field order of the output file.

http://www.afterdawn.com/guides/archive/deciphering_cce_basic_page_5.cfm

[fischkopf]

I see. Thanks manono, for clarifying about the reasoning behind resizing like that. It escaped me totally that it would be squeezed horizontally to 640 upon display, thus countering the vertical squeeze.

What if I wanted to go for 16:9? Or does my source AVI's resolution / AR make that less than ideal? Would it display right on a 4:3 TV?

One other thing, I do not quite understand the syntax for the resize filter.

LanczosResize(720,384,4,0,712,416)

Can someone please explain what each number is for? 720,384 is fairly obvious, but the rest isn't, even after reading the avisynth.org wiki page for the *Resize filters.

[FulciLives]

Looks good to me but I would resize to a 16x9 WS ratio.

Based on the original 1:1 of 720x416 I would use the following:

LanczosResize(688,480,0,1,720,414)
AddBorders(16,0,16,0)

This will make it 16x9 WS anamorphic.

Also do as manono says in regards to, "I have Output TFF checked, the Offset line set for zero, and the Luminance Level set for 0-255"

Also if you go 16x9 WS anamorphic make sure you set that up in CCE SP instead of 4:3

Oh and be sure you are using a good bitrate to make it fit etc.

- John "FulciLives" Coleman

[Alex_ander]

I do not quite understand the syntax for the resize filter.

LanczosResize(720,384,4,0,712,416)

Can someone please explain what each number is for? 720,384 is fairly obvious, but the rest isn't...

the rest four are the numbers for cropping before resizing:
left, top, resulting width, resulting height;

alternatively, if you use negative numbers for the last 2:
left, top, -right, -bottom (in the quoted case would be 4,0,-4,0)

[manono]

What if I wanted to go for 16:9? Or does my source AVI's resolution / AR make that less than ideal? Would it display right on a 4:3 TV?

FulciLives explained how to adjust the script to encode for 16:9, and I was implying by something I said in my first reply that I'd do it for 16:9 myself. Would it display right on a 4:3 TV set? Don't you already have a bunch of 16:9 DVDs (assuming you have any DVDs at all)? And don't they display properly on your TV set? The answer is yes, they'll look fine. Some of the resolution is lost and black bars are added to keep the AR for 4:3 TV sets:

Anamorphic video as it appears on a Standard 4x3 TV. The DVD player performs a mathematical downconversion on the video signal, in effect combining every 4 lines of vertical resolution into 3 until the correct aspect ratio is achieved. The black bars at the top and bottom of the image are generated electronically, completing the image. Visually, it's nearly indistinguishable from a non-anamorphic (letterboxed) DVD image.

http://www.thedigitalbits.com/articles/anamorphic/anamorphic185demo.html

[fischkopf]

Thank you all very much for the help and explanations. I am impressed by the promptness and thoroughness of your replies.

[RickA]

Greets,

Looks like you are on the right track. You have already gotten guidance from some of the great sages here on the forums. I reckon they have forgotten more about video than I will ever learn .

When I did my conversions a year or so ago like you are doing now. I started out using CCE then switched to HCenc as the encoder midway through the project. Converted about 2 seasons of shows this way. I tended to use Lanczos to resize and get NTSC resolutions instead of using addborders. Your vid resolution is closer to dvd spec than mine were. I did not see it on your screencaps but would like to mention that if there is a 'Force DVD Compliance' setting in your workflow chain to not use it. I forget if CCE has that option or TDA (been months since I used either). I used BeSweet and AC3Machine to convert the WAV into AC3 before authoring with TDA. You already mentioned your reasons on not messing with the audio. Good luck on your project.

Cheers,
Rick

[Claude001]

Hi, maybe you can anwser me.

I converted an AVI pal to ntsc, 25 fps to 23.976.

Every thing is ok, but the movement of the pictures are irregular ???

Somebody have a idea ??

I tried TMPGENC and CCE

[MistaED]

I KNOW that you guys like being nerds and videoheads...BUT...everything this guy would like done, including using CCE as the encoder can be done using Thefilmachine, which is an outstanding application that also includes authoring. I recommend that you give it a shot.

[manono]

I converted an AVI pal to ntsc, 25 fps to 23.976.

Every thing is ok, but the movement of the pictures are irregular ???

Somebody have a idea ??

I tried TMPGENC and CCE

You probably should have started your own thread about this, as fischkopf's thread isn't very closely related to your problem.

But, the obvious question is how did you do this framerate conversion? If jerky, most likely one frame every second was removed from the video, rather than slowing it down to go from 25fps to 23.976fps. Either that or duplicate frames were added to go up to 29.97fps. Perhaps if you follow fischkopf's (and many other people's) method, your problem will go away.

Or maybe read the other post completely unrelated to the subject of this thread and take MistaED's advice.

[Guest34343]

Not sure if the DGPulldown method is widely compatible either.

Don't worry about that. With the latest versions, I've never heard of any incompatibility. It generates perfectly legal MPEG2, which decoders are required by spec to decode and display.

[FulciLives]

Not sure if the DGPulldown method is widely compatible either.

Don't worry about that. With the latest versions, I've never heard of any incompatibility. It generates perfectly legal MPEG2, which decoders are required by spec to decode and display.

As far as a video sage ... can't get much better than neuron2

- John "FulciLives" Coleman

[Claude001]

Thanks i m gona try your method and i come back after

[Claude001]

In your method you convert the avi file 25 fps into a mpeg2 file at 25 fps after you do the pulldown from 25 fps to 29.97 ??

[manono]

No, you encode for 25fps at 720x480 and after the MPV comes out of CCE (or any other MPEG-2 encoder) you then apply DGPulldown for 25->29.97fps. That makes it NTSC DVD compliant and ready for authoring. The audio length remains unchanged, but may have to be converted to a DVD compliant format (AC3, WAV, MP2 if for PAL).

[FulciLives]

In other words ensure that you leave the frame rate at 25fps but use a NTSC resolution like 720x480 instead of a PAL resolution like 720x576.

In other words do NOT convert to 25fps with a PAL resolution. You need to change the resolution.

In CCE if you leave FOR DVD checkmarked it will resize to a PAL resolution when you set the frame rate to 25fps so you have to uncheck that option. If all your other settings are "on mark" then the encoding will be good.

- John "FulciLives" Coleman

[Claude001]

Ho ! ok, this is my mistake, I will try it right now thanks again...

[Claude001]

It s me again

Wow its working...I did a test with a sample of my AVI file. But now i have a new problem, when i m made the authoring with the DVD author, i have a GOP of 39 fields, and when i did the convert, i put a max of 18 frames in GOP.

So now i dont understand why the dvd author warning me like that?

Now I reduce the max of GOP to 1 and its working.
I whant to know what is the better setting for the GOP, and the consequence ?

[manono]

The longest allowable NTSC GOP is 18 frames (=36 fields). When applying pulldown the number of frames increases by a factor of 29.97/encoded framerate. If applying pulldown to a 25fps encode, it increases by a factor of 29.97/25= 1.1988. If using CCE I set M=3 and N/M=4. Copy fischkopf's settings in his pics above. Except the ones we corrected, of course.

I recommend you do the encoding all over again.

[Claude001]

Good, thanks a lot

I m doing again....

Ciao

[Claude001]

Wow it s working very well

Thanks a lot guys, specialy to FulciLives and manono.
You are the King of video.
I am very happy

Thanks again.

Ciao