Where does a noob find help for building own computer?

[usually_quiet]

I am starting to think about a new computer. My current one is from Dell, delivered in January of 2002. I have been very satisfied with it, and it is still working well, but it can't run Vista and I'll probably need to some point.

While I am definitely not a power user, I am thinking of building my own PC because of the limitations imposed by Dell's motherboards and cases that one encounters when contemplating upgrades. I would like to be able to make some gradual improvements to my system, for a change, instead of having to junk the whole thing at once, even if it costs me a bit more initially.

I subscribe to Maximum PC. but a lot of the articles are geared towards gaming and case modding. (I only have it because I needed to cash in some airline miles, but didn't have enough to go anywhere. ) Although XOxide's website had some useful information, they are geared towards gaming too. The other sites I have found on my own are rather outdated.

Some of the members here are seasoned veterans at building their own computer. ...So, where are good places for a beginner to look for information on building one?

Power supplies especially are a bit of a puzzle. How does one determine wattage needed? Then there are connections to consider. I understand 24 pins is a must for new motherboards, and that I will need a mix of molex and sata connectors for my hard drives and optical drives, as well as one for a floppy drive (probably). However, what about other devices? From some of the schematics I've looked at, case fans seem to connect to the motherboard, but I read a complaint from one guy about a power supply not having the right connector for his video card, which I never heard of before.

[Soopafresh]

http://www.journeysystems.com/?power_supply_calculator

We seem to like the Intel Q6600 Processor around here.

You don't need a fast video card for video processing

There's never enough disk space. Consider 2 x 500 or larger drives.

What's your budget ?

Here's a basic video on PC construction. It's pretty up to date.

http://www.5min.com/Video/How-to-Build-Your-Own-PC-6867

[jagabo]

NewEgg barebone systems:

http://www.newegg.com/Store/SubCategory.aspx?SubCategory=3&name=Barebone-Systems

[MOVIEGEEK]

The best way of upgrading is to buy a motherboard/CPU combo,the easiest and most cost effective method is use your current mobo and buy a faster CPU and buy more memory.If you have an old CPU(<1.4GHz) then it has an outdated pin configuration so you will have to buy a mobo/CPU combo.
As for a power supply(PSU) I recommend one that is at least 400w and has at least four SATA connectors and four Molex,that way you are future proof.High end videocards need power so buying a PSU with a PCIe16 connector is a good idea:
http://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.aspx?Item=N82E16817371006

[Soopafresh]

Moviegeek, he can't do that on a Dell. Just about everything is proprietary on those machines.

[MOVIEGEEK]

Moviegeek, he can't do that on a Dell. Just about everything is proprietary on those machines.

He can buy a CD and do a clean install,he can then download the drivers from Dell.com.
As I said the easiest solution is to buy a new CPU/memory,that way he wouldn't have to do a clean install.
BTW:XP will no longer be sold after June.

[Soopafresh]

MovieGeek is right about getting a copy of XP before they stop selling it. The problem with "onesey-twosey" upgrading is that it's like trying to turn a Volkswagon into a Porsche, and all you end up getting is a weird looking Volkswagon when you're done. You can build a low end system for $700 and it'll work quite nicely for the next several years.

[redwudz]

I did post a guide at the top of the computer section for assembling a economy computer. A bit out of date now and not the easiest to navigate, but it may help a bit. https://forum.videohelp.com/topic315746.html

The best answer is to spend a fair amount of time looking around and considering your options. It's not really hard to assemble a computer, just plug in the parts. Finding the right CPU, motherboard and case is the best place to start. I would recommend the Intel Q6600 at present for a good price point, and I like the Gigabyte motherboards. But the available options change daily.

[usually_quiet]

The the Intel Q6600 Processor is way out of my league at present, and not necessary. The most demanding things I do are a bit of video editing, authoring and burning, and watching DVD's. I though about recording TV, but I think a stand-alone DVD recorder is probably a better solution for me, at present. I don't own a digital video camera, and all I ever work with is mpeg2 video from my DVD recorder. No overclocking anything for me. The most advanced games I have are some old Tomb Raiders.

I was thinking about a very small budget (under $600) with the option to change to a more powerful CPU when they are much less expensive. I would re-use my 2 HDD's which are relatively new IDE's totalling 200GB, and my CRT monitor. I could add another SATA drive at some point though. Here is one configuration I considered.

$ 52.99 - hec 6K28BS Black / Silver 0.8mm SECC Steel MicroATX Mini Tower Computer Case 585W Power Supply - Retail
$ 89.99 - GIGABYTE GA-EP35-DS3L LGA 775 Intel P35 ATX Intel Motherboard
$ 71.99 - Intel Pentium E2180 Allendale 2.0GHz LGA 775 65W Dual-Core Processor Model BX80557E2180 - Retail
$ 68.99 - CORSAIR XMS2 2GB (2 x 1GB) 240-Pin DDR2 SDRAM DDR2 800 (PC2 6400) Dual Channel Kit Desktop Memory
$ 49.99 - ASUS EN8500GT TOP/HTP/256M GeForce 8500GT 256MB 128-bit GDDR3 PCIExpressx16 HDCP Ready Video Card (after rebate)
$ 6.99 - SAMSUNG Black 1.44MB 3.5" Internal Floppy Drive Model SFD321B/LBL1 - OEM
$ 26.99 - LITE-ON Black LH-20A1S
$ 16.99 - Microsoft CA9-00001 Black PS/2 Standard Basic Keyboard and Mouse Mouse Included - OEM
$ 18.99 - Hercules 4769177 5 Watts 2.0 Stereo Speaker Kit
---------
$402.88
$ 89.99 - Microsoft Windows Vista Home Pro SP1 OEM Version
--------
$493.87

The included power supply may be a little iffy, and I will probably wind up getting an empty case and a better power supply. I think I could add a fan in front of the hard drive bays too, but I'm not sure it would accomplish anything with this case.

You'll all have a good laugh, but remember it's still a vast improvement over what I have now. I would have liked to have Windows XP Home but as you say, it's disappearing.

PS: Sorry MOVIEGEEK, Soopafresh is right about Dell's motherboards being proprietary. The cases don't even fit standard motherboards, so I can't put in a new one either. ...and the case isn't properly ventilated for anything newer anyway.

[DarrellS]

I would like to be able to make some gradual improvements to my system, for a change, instead of having to junk the whole thing at once, even if it costs me a bit more initially.

The days of upgrading are gone. You have to completely rebuild with all the new technology. Intel and Microsoft have made sure of that. You can't buy new boards to support old technology and if you have to build with new technology, you might as well build something that you won't have to completely rebuild in a year or two.

[Soopafresh]

usually_quiet, that config looks like it would work. I'd encourage you to consider the E4600 processor, as it'll be better at playing h264 video (which is already becoming the dominant media format) . It's around $40 more than the E2180.

http://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.aspx?Item=N82E16819115032

I'd recommend the Pioneer DVD driver over lite-on, just because the Lite-On emits a high pitched sound when it spins up.

http://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.aspx?Item=N82E16827129020


You're also missing a hard drive (unless you already have one)

250GB Seagate for $60 http://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.aspx?Item=N82E16822148261

[usually_quiet]

I was debating about the E4600 processor, but I wasn't sure how much it would benefit me. Thanks, Soopafresh, for giving me a reason to get one, and some confirmation that I'm on the right track. I don't have the money yet, but practice makes perfect, so when I do, I'll be prepared to make better choices.

I made a mistake with the case. This one is the one I wanted. I think it's better for me since it's a little roomier.

$52.99 - hec 6C28BSX585 Black / Silver Steel ATX Mid Tower Computer Case 585W Power Supply - Retail

I'll be reusing my newish IDE hard drives. One is literally brand new.

[aedipuss]

check the motherboard. most p35 chipsets only have 1 ide channel for 2 devices. usually used for optical drives. sata is the hd of choice.

[usually_quiet]

check the motherboard. most p35 chipsets only have 1 ide channel for 2 devices. usually used for optical drives. sata is the hd of choice.

The motherboard I chose does have one IDE connection that supports 2 devices. My 2 HDD's are newer than my present DVD burner, so if I can, I'd prefer to replace the burner, which has a shorter lifespan anyway, with a SATA device, and keep my IDE HDD's. Are you saying that the IDE devices have to be optical drives for the motherboard to work well with them?

Part of the reason I want to do this is to avoid pitching two fairly new and still useful IDE drives. I am also on a very tight budget.

[MOVIEGEEK]

EDIT

[budz]

I'd suggest getting a better computer case and power supply. The Cooler Master Elite 330 case is a good mid tower case and get a good power supply like Thermaltake, Enermax & PC Power and Cooling. I used to like Antec but their quality control lately is hit or miss.

Cooler Master 330 Elite Case, $39.99, no power supply
http://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.aspx?Item=N82E16811119115

Thermaltake 600 watt Power supply, $89.99 but with mail in rebate cost is $59.99
http://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.aspx?Item=N82E16817153042

Get a E4500 cpu if you can afford it or you can always upgrade your cpu in a year with that Gigabyte motherboard you've chosen. I use to run a E2160 that was overclocked to 3.00ghz which I knew I would upgrade when other cpu prices dropped this year.

Most motherboards now come with only 1 IDE connection. If you're keeping your 2 IDE pata hard drives then buy a Sata SAMSUNG S203B or Sata PIONEER 215D drive to replace your older model dvd burner.

You can always buy another dell pc for about the cost of those components you've chosen. Dell Business section has some good deals for the budget you have in mind. I configured 2 dell pc's for coworkers which included XP HOME & 20inch lcd monitor for under the cost of $600.00. Check the Dell website under the business section. Just my 2 cents!

[lacywest]

Well .... I shall add my two cents ...

On Ebay ...
I was getting some Dell GX280 PCs lately for the past year .... they run 2.8 GHZ and some at 3.4 ghz and 3.6 ghz .... I'm not really crazy over the clamshell open and close design.

And now ... I'm getting on Ebay ... AMD ATHLON 64 4200+ AM2 DUAL CORE BAREBONES COMPUTER

Item number: 350059296895 ...... a few weeks ago I got one and I fired it up a few days ago ... it worked from the moment I stuck a hard drive in it and some ram ... oh .... and a old Sony DVD ROM reader .... for burning DVDs ... I have a Plextor PX-740A in a USB enclosure sitting next to it.

I also have been getting some ACER PCs from Ebay ...

Acer Aspire AST180-UD440A Desktop 2.3GHz 1GB 320GB DL DVDRW

Specifications
Processor Speed 2.3GHz
System Bus 2000MHz
Cache Memory 512KB + 512KB on die Level 2
System Memory (RAM) 1GB
System Memory (RAM) Expandable To 4GB
Type of Memory (RAM) DDR2
Hard Drive Type Serial ATA (7200 rpm)
Hard Drive Size 320GB
Graphics NVIDIA GeForce 6100 and nForce 430 MCP
Video Memory Up to 256MB as allocated by Windows Vista
Personal Video Recorder (PVR) No
TV Tuner No
MPEG Yes
Audio High-definition (7.1-channel support)

I have been getting mostly the ... Acer Aspire AST180-UD440A

I just recently won one ... for $187 + 37 bucks for shipping ... if this one has included what it says ... the Vista Home Premium will be installed and ACER includes software to burn reinstall Disks from the OS already installed.

I know this because I've already got 4 of these two weeks ago and one was ready to go out of the box ... one had no harddrive and ram ... and one of them .... the harddrive was dead ... no biggy ... I've got plenty of HDs sitting around.

I also won one yesterday ... doesn't work supposely ... ASE380-UD440A Desktop 2.2GHz 2GB 250GB DVDRW

Something about the wires from the power supply being " NOTE: Unit does not power on. Power supply has ripped spliced cables running from it. Operating System is not included "

What I like about these ACER PCs is ... the power supplies can be easily replaced with bigger ones.

The Dell GX280s .... the power supplies in them can also be replaced ... but I have to use a tin snip nibbler tool to remove some of the back plate to get a power supply with a higher wattage to fit.

....... enuff said

[stiltman]

$ 52.99 - hec 6K28BS Black / Silver 0.8mm SECC Steel MicroATX Mini Tower Computer Case 585W Power Supply - Retail
$ 89.99 - GIGABYTE GA-EP35-DS3L LGA 775 Intel P35 ATX Intel Motherboard .

Am I missing something

MicroATX case and a regular ATX motherboard?

I don't think the board will fit....I also didn't check the specs for each, but I would make sure the board fits in that case before buying.

[Soopafresh]

Good catch stiltman, but it looks like he changed his mind for the 6C28BSX585 mid tower case, which seems to be full ATX. I recently made that mistake. A 40 mile round trip to fix it.

[usually_quiet]

I'd suggest getting a better computer case and power supply. The Cooler Master Elite 330 case is a good mid tower case and get a good power supply like Thermaltake, Enermax & PC Power and Cooling. I used to like Antec but their quality control lately is hit or miss.

Yes, those look like good choices. Thanks.

You can always buy another dell pc for about the cost of those components you've chosen. Dell Business section has some good deals for the budget you have in mind. I configured 2 dell pc's for coworkers which included XP HOME & 20inch lcd monitor for under the cost of $600.00. Check the Dell website under the business section. Just my 2 cents!

Don't get me wrong, my Dell has served me well, but if I ever buy one again it will be because I have decided that buying a system and keeping it more-or-less as purchased is what I want.

I looked at new Inspiron 530's. The configuration that is closest to what I was planning to build costs $599 without a monitor. The silver case is handsome. (I am a little tired of black/charcoal electronics.) Although it allows only 2 hard drives, I could live with that. Maximum memory is 4GB. I looked at the specs, which are probably out of date because one can order up to a Q9300 CPU. I really can't afford the higher end CPU's being offered, and if I ordered something less powerful, it doesn't seem likely that the motherboard and power supply would be the same ones as for the best CPU's. I would have to go by what the specs say a about a 300 watt power supply.

Right now even the mid-range CPU's among Dell's offerings seem great. Memory and hard drive capacity seem like way more than I will ever need. But when I bought my current system, up to 512MB memory (I maxed it out with an upgrade 3 years ago) and up to 120GB for each of 2 HDD's seemed like more than I would ever need too. Vista and my DVD recorder have proved me wrong on both counts. Who knows what Vista's successor will need, and Vista's reception has been so unenthusiastic that I don't think it will be around for long.

To laceywest: I'll keep the possibility of buying a used system in mind as a last resort if I have an emergency and need an even lower cost alternative, but I probably won't be shopping on EBay. I'm not that much of a gambler. With my luck I'd buy from a crook. I would look for companies selling reconditioned PC's with a short warranty, at a somewhat higher price. Though, unless it was an emergency, and that is all I could afford, I wouldn't buy a used business PC. Things happen and it may well turn out that my PC money needs to go elsewhere, but if that's the case, I'm definitely going to wait until I absolutely have to get a new system.

From what I could learn, most of the ones being offered are adequate to run Vista if you add all the memory allowed, but are not very upgradeable otherwise. For example, it looks like the Optiplex GX280 series could be configured with 2GB of memory (maximum) to run Vista without choking. and is otherwise moderately better than what I have now, but only has room for one HDD, probably no more than 160GB. I want a minimum of 2 HDD's, and I don't want to resort to an external one if I can avoid it.

To Stiltman: I think I know how I made that mistake. I thought I had changed that in my notes, but apparently I didn't save the change before a brief power failure occurred. The price for that version of Vista is also wrong. There is an arithmetical error too. I'm off by $1.

Anyway it's good to know you are all paying such close attention to this. I'm flattered that you'd bother because most of the people here who build their own go for something nearer to the bleeding edge.

[stiltman]

I'm flattered that you'd bother because most of the people here who build their own go for something nearer to the bleeding edge.

Bleeding edge today is out of date tomorrow, well maybe a week later

That said, my last system was a Dimension 4200 that I bought about 5-6 years ago
It came with
P4 1.6
256 Ram
40gb HDD
CR Rom

The same case, MB and PSU now has
P4 2.6 (max for the motherboard)
768 Ram (all paper work says 512 is max, but it took 768)
2 160gb HDDs
2 DVD burners
ATI AIW 9000
ADS Pyro 3 port fireware card
Generic 4 port USB 2 card
Intel 100/1000 Pro NIC card

So don't believe all the gripe about Dell's propitery systems
I bought the computer off the refurb site too.

I would recommend buying a Dell unless your dead set on building your own. Just pick a model and head to their support forums to find out what Intel chipset they are using. That will usually tell you the max CPU and RAM you can upgrade to.

[budz]

Don't get me wrong, my Dell has served me well, but if I ever buy one again it will be because I have decided that buying a system and keeping it more-or-less as purchased is what I want.

I looked at new Inspiron 530's. The configuration that is closest to what I was planning to build costs $599 without a monitor. The silver case is handsome. (I am a little tired of black/charcoal electronics.) Although it allows only 2 hard drives, I could live with that. Maximum memory is 4GB. I looked at the specs, which are probably out of date because one can order up to a Q9300 CPU. I really can't afford the higher end CPU's being offered, and if I ordered something less powerful, it doesn't seem likely that the motherboard and power supply would be the same ones as for the best CPU's. I would have to go by what the specs say a about a 300 watt power supply.

Right now even the mid-range CPU's among Dell's offerings seem great. Memory and hard drive capacity seem like way more than I will ever need. But when I bought my current system, up to 512MB memory (I maxed it out with an upgrade 3 years ago) and up to 120GB for each of 2 HDD's seemed like more than I would ever need too. Vista and my DVD recorder have proved me wrong on both counts. Who knows what Vista's successor will need, and Vista's reception has been so unenthusiastic that I don't think it will be around for long.

The DELL SMALL BUSINESS SECTION sells the VOSTRO's line of pc's. The Inspiron 530's are from the home use section.

http://www.dell.com/content/products/productdetails.aspx/vostrodt_200mt?c=us&l=en&s=bsd&cs=04

Here's a VOSTRO 200 pc for $638.00

Vostro 200:
Intel® Core™2 Duo Proc E8300 (2.83GHZ, 6MB L2 Cache, 1333FSB) E83
Operating System:
Genuine Windows® XP Home Edition XPHOME
Warranty & Service:
1 Year Basic Limited Warranty and 1 Year NBD On-Site Service
Monitor:
No Monitor NOMON [320-5671] 5
Memory:
1GB Dual Channel DDR2 SDRAM 667MHz - 2DIMMs 1GB667
Optical Drives:
Single Drive: 16X DVD-ROM Drive 16XDVD
Primary Hard Drive:
80GB Serial ATA Hard Drive (7200RPM) w/DataBurst Cache™ 80GB72K
Establish Hard Drive Partition:
Custom Hard Drive Partition, 40GB Primary, Remainder Secondary 1PART40
Video Card:
128MB NVIDIA® GeForce® 8300GS 8300GS
Floppy Drive and Media Reader:
No Floppy Drive NOFD
Modem and Wireless:
No Modem Option NOMODEM
Sound:
Integrated 7.1 Channel Audio INAUDIO
Office Productivity Software (Pre-installed):
Microsoft® Works Plus 2008 - Works + Word 2003 WKPLS08
Security Software:
No Pre-installed Anti-Virus/Security Software NOPRTCT
Windows XP™ VCD [310-8591] 750
Speakers:
No speakers (Speakers are required to hear audio from your system) NOSPKRS
Keyboard:
Dell USB Keyboard USBKYBD
Mouse:
Dell Scroll Mouse SCRLMSE
Adobe Software:
Adobe Acrobat Reader ADOBEAC
Dell DataSafe Online Data Backup:
No Online Data Back Up Installed NODSAFE
Standard Vostro Services Tools:
No Dell Automated PC Tune Up Installed NOPCTUE
Standard Vostro Services Tools:
Dell Network Assistant NTASIST
Internet Access Service:
No ISP requested NOISP
Purchase Intent:
Purchase is not intended for resale. NOT4SEL
Network Interface:
Integrated 10/100 Ethernet INT

As you can see the Intel processor is a Wolfdale E8300, 2.83GHZ, 6MB L2 Cache, 1333FSB which is much faster than the Intel Allendale 2180 processor that you posted. For $638.00 that's not a bad deal at all which also includes $10.00 to partition the 80gb hard drive.

[stiltman]

I would check out their outlet section before the new stuff.
I found Thr. to be the best day of the week, You have to really stick with it though...tons of F5s (refreshing) the screen to see stuff that pops up and then you only have like 15 mins to decide before it gets removed from your cart

On a quick inspection
I filtered
<500
Dimensions and XPS desktops
2gb RAM

Remember I didn't sit and hit refresh for a couple of hours until the right system popped up....but you get the point
Also Dell's site USED to get much more detailed info....I haven't used their refurb site in awhile


This one seems good.
FSB is 1066 so it can be upgraded to a Q6600
Ram can be upgraded to 3gb for 32bit and 4 or more for 64bit OS


_____________________________
XPS 210
(System Identifier: E6TXKAVA)


XPS 210 Small Form Factor: Intel Core 2 Duo Processor E6600 (4MB L2 Cache,2.4GHz,1066 FSB)
Genuine Windows Vista Business

System Price : $489.00

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------


Operating System
Genuine Windows Vista Business
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Memory
2 GB DDR2 Non-ECC SDRAM 533MHz (2 DIMMs)
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Hard Disk Drive
160 GB SATA Hard Drive (7200RPM)
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Certified Refurbished
Certified Refurbished
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Base
XPS 210 Small Form Factor: Intel Core 2 Duo Processor E6600 (4MB L2 Cache,2.4GHz,1066 FSB)
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Media Bay
24X CD RW/DVD Combo Drive
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Software Upgrade
Microsoft Works 8.5 with MS Office Trial Version Software
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Hardware Upgrade
USB Keyboard
No Floppy Drive
Dell Optical USB 2-button Mouse

[stiltman]

OK, I deleted this post several times before I hit submit this time

OK, I changed my mind and deleted it

If you saw it cool

[usually_quiet]

Thanks guys. The used systems seem to be a better deal, and I'll spend some more time looking around there later to see what is available.

I haven't given up on building my own system though. I think I could do it if I took the time to study, and this isn't urgent. I still have plenty of time to investigate. It might be a good intellectual execise for me. Even if they're 20 years out-of-date I did manage to earn a BSME and a BSCS, so I think I can handle this, if I decide I want to.

[DarrellS]

If you have time to study, my friend at Intel tells me that the Core 2 Quads will be dirt cheap this summer when the new technology hits the market.

[kush]

They already are. Microcenter has the Q6600 @ $179 + $6 shipping. I paid nearly $80 more only about 3 months ago...

[edit]
link
Note: that's the OEM (no heatsink). I use a Xigmatek S1283 (<$40), keeps my quad under 60c @ load, all the while greatly overclocked/volted (3.6 / 1.475v). If you're not into overclocking at all the stock Intel HSF would be sufficient probably...

and Microcenter has the retail boxed Q6600 @ $200 - link. However, they're only available IN-STORE for some reason, unlike the OEM version. $220 @ Newegg, free 3-day UPS shipping. Also, Newegg's got a combo deal on the Q6600 and you're previous choice of the Gigabyte board - $305, $7 shipping. And 2x2GB A-Data PC6400 @ $78 shipped, there was a $15 off promo code last week (just got mine today), however the code seems to be dead.

[DarrellS]

I got mine three weeks ago from newegg for $224. The next day they were $219. I got a Pentium D in January cause I was sure I wouldn't be able to get the Q6600. I would've saved myself $300 dollars on the CPU, Intel board and memory if I could've waited four months but my Socket 478 MSI board burnt up.

I got the Gigabyte GA-EP35-DS3P for $149 last week with an HD2600XT for $80 after $20 rebate and 2GB of G.SKILL 8500 DDR2 1066 for $60.

My friend from Intel is talking lower prices than what we have now. I wouldn't be surprised if the Q9xxx CPUs sell for under $200 from the way he was talking.

[lacywest]

Good Reading guys ... WOW ... I've been a AMD fan for years ... but ... I have to admit ... switching over to Intel has been swimming around my head.

GX280s ... there are two bays for hard drives ... one used already and an empty one up above.

And if you look at my "Computer Details" ... I did build that one myself and I have been using it since 2004.

... and only recently ... a few weeks ago ... I took out the [single core] 3500+ cpu and put in a dual core 4200+ cpu ... I've got a dual core 4400+ to put in ... I bought it same time period as the 4200+ but Canada Post lost the package and it took about 32 days for it to finally arrive at my door ... the Ebay Seller stuck it in a number 10 envelope and actually had it stamped on the envelope ... insurance value ... $200 bucks ...... geez ... its a wonder it arrived at all.

But I do have another Tower with a MSI K8N Neo2 mother board installed sitting at in the garage waiting to be ressurected ... but I'm spending too much time playing around with those ACER pcs ... I've been getting from Ebay folks .... enuff said.

[jagabo]

The local Fry's is selling the Q6600 with an ECS G31T-M motherboard for US$180 this weekend. In the same ad is 2 GB of Crucial DDR2 PC6400 DRAM for $20 (after $30 mail in rebate), a 750 GB Seagate SATA 300 drive for $110 (PATA for $100), an Antec 430 watt TruePower Trio PSU for $10 (after $50 MIR), and lots of other good deals.