Import @ 1920x1080 or 960x540 (or why the Mac sucks for HD compared to PC)

[ArthurDaley]

Blindly like a sheep, I though Macs have a better name for video editing etc. (i.e. the creative stuff), so I bought a Mac Book Pro.

On the PC (XP) I'd used Sony Vegas or the free HDVsplit software to import my 1080i camcorder (HDV) tapes. It gave me a bit for bit import of HDV at 11 GB/hr (the output is .m2t files). Life was good. I wanted it better so got the Mac.

On switching to the Mac I found (iMovie, FCP) could handle the Sony files I'd imported on the PC; that is .m2t files without transcoding (!) to something call the Apple Intermediate Codec (AIC). My conclusion was there was no real option but to reimport everything from tape all over again (!) if I wanted my HD tapes to end up in a format that the Mac played nice with (every method to get .m2t to something the Mac liked seemed time consuming and nasty). Apple - 1

So once I'd accepted I'd need to start all over again importing from tape, I did my first import on the Mac and the output is 40 GB/hr - yes four times that of the PC! (and correct me if I am wrong but it's stored transcoded to AIC and still not a true bit by bit conversion). Apple - 2

I did a bit of background reading and Apple wants you instead of importing at 1920x1080 they want you to import at 960x540. Apple claims there is about a 4:1 ratio, file size wise between 1920x1080 compared to 960x540. So right enough I did an import at 960x540 and downscaling everything to Apple's proprietary format gave 12 GB/hr (for 960x540 video). Apple -3

Furthermore I've not had it confirmed but from iMovie08 reviews, it seems to be the case that even if you import and export at 1920x1080, iMovie will internally process it at 960x540.

A quick trawl around the web reveals quotes like "Ordinarily I'm among the strongest of Apple & Mac supporters, but this nonsense is inexcusable. And I'm not the only one who sees problems with Apple's wanderings. At this point there's no certainty about where Apple's video strategy is headed. I feel my time, money, and video is much safer with Sony Vegas as Sony's direction is crystal clear. Certainly they're not going to take their HD editor and chop it down to an SD editor as Apple has done." and "I've been upset with Apple's crppy MPEG2 support for years, and that's not going to get any better. Meanwhile, the Windows OS alternatives to this Apple mess just keep getting better. Sony Vegas has a huge-and-growing following including quite a few former Mac users. It's the new 'switch' campaign in reverse. Sony Vegas, BTW, offers no-hassles Blu-Ray burning since last year. It works directly with HDV "

So it would seem for HD, that your probably better off running a PC with Vegas. Which is a bummer since that is what I had!

My objective later on is to use Blu-ray discs for pristine 1080i distribution.

Now it COULD be the case that I'd not notice much difference between 1920x1080 or 960x540 (output display is 1080p, 42" and a few years down the line larger) assuming it's easy enough to make a blue-ray compat. disc with 960x540 res. material. Since my camcorder is 1080i and h.264 (used by BR) isn't as efficient with interlaced material and the camera really is 1440x1080 as with most 1080i camcorders, it scales to 1920x1080 on playback.

BUT it seems hard not to see it that Apple are really forcing you to near SD levels!

So two questions:

1) Can anybody refute the evidence above that Apple suck for consumer HD and I should have stuck with PC+Vegas?
2) What does the jury say, should I import at 1920x1080 or 960x540? If so doing it at 40GB/hr on the Mac sucks against 11 GB/hr on the PC.

[Rand HOPPE]

Arthur,

I'm experiencing a related frustration.

Presently looks like I'll have to export a 45 GB AIC .mov out to some kind of uncompressed 100+ GB .avi (I'm not really sure this is my best option), and then bring it over to my windows box and try to figure out something from there. I'm surprised, especially with the mac community being able to use -nix tools, that no one's wrestled with this before and is able to provide a clue. From AIC .mov to an .avi with lossless compression, anyone?

[ArthurDaley]

bump

[rumplestiltskin]

http://discussions.apple.com/thread.jspa?messageID=7163448

That might answer some of your questions.

Forget iMovie as a solution for 1080 HD footage; that app is not designed for it. Don't blame the app for not doing what you want if it wasn't designed for it.

The discussion at Apple, by the way, yielded a plug-in solution from Sony:

http://support.d-imaging.sony.co.jp/www/pro_hdv/fcp_plugin/

Let us know how it goes.

[Baldrick]

Moving you to our mac section.

[jman98]

I'm surprised, especially with the mac community being able to use -nix tools, that no one's wrestled with this before and is able to provide a clue.

Unix and related systems suck for doing video work. I work as a Unix system administrator, so I'm not just some Windows fanboy talking. I wish I had a good non-Windows solution for you guys, but the reality is that as a general rule, if you want to do serious video or audio work and you don't have tens of thousands of dollars to spend on professional Mac software, you use Windows. There are a lot of tasks that are trivial in Windows and can't be done easily, if at all, on non-Windows systems. Certainly not with cheap/free software.

[SERBIAN]

On switching to the Mac I found (iMovie, FCP) could handle the Sony files I'd imported on the PC; that is .m2t files without transcoding (!) to something call the Apple Intermediate Codec (AIC).

So? Why do you expect that some other software on different platform should process files you captured on another? Also you can capture directly in .m2t with Mac too...very easy...

My conclusion was there was no real option but to reimport everything from tape all over again (!)

Good conclusion..Why you are surprised?

So once I'd accepted I'd need to start all over again importing from tape, I did my first import on the Mac and the output is 40 GB/hr - yes four times that of the PC! (and correct me if I am wrong but it's stored transcoded to AIC and still not a true bit by bit conversion).

You are wrong.

I did a bit of background reading and Apple wants you instead of importing at 1920x1080 they want you to import at 960x540.

?????? Read again or find more reliable source cause above is pure nonsense and not true.

At this point there's no certainty about where Apple's video strategy is headed.

Same direction as Hollywood, unlike Sony.

I feel my time, money, and video is much safer with Sony Vegas as Sony's direction is crystal clear.

heheheeheh...Well, good for him..Bon Voyage...

Certainly they're not going to take their HD editor and chop it down to an SD editor as Apple has done.

Another nonsense and total lack of knowledge.

Well I wont go any further with quotes, however PLEASE note the following all of you before flame Apple cause its not working with your precious camera or any other recording device...m2t and ALL other MPEG Transport or Program stream formats are NOT, and I repeat NOT the production but the delivery format..So stop whinin about not able to edit something which is not made for editing and postproduction /although Sony told you different/..Apple has great uncompressed format choices /true HD and SD/ which is far better and superiror then anything on any other platform especially of those various MPEG TS streams...1080 HD and 1080 HDV and/or any other type of 1080 MPEG TS are 2 VERY different things...There is NO WAY to do accurate in-frame editing with TS formats... So buy a PC and edit whatever you want but dont blame Apple for not taking the every single format in Final Cut Pro or any other app...Actually thats a very good thing...Sony has its own platform which is based on windows..So buy Vaio, install Vegas and do your thing...

[ArthurDaley]

Bump,

Over year later, same question outstanding.

On the Mac do we need to burn 45 GB (AIC .mov) to import and HD tape compared with 11 GB (.m2t) on the PC?

Regards

[rumplestiltskin]

*sigh*

He's back...and still hasn't learned how to read.

[ArthurDaley]

Dude - post something helpful. If you are suggesting something has not been understood please quote. I don't see an answer above.

I see some rant in favour of Apple but I'd like concrete. On PC I can play the tape over, it takes 11gig and is lossless. I can load Vegas and edit. Simple. How can I do likewise on the Mac? Or do I really need to play with AIC etc and burn 45 gig a tape?

[guns1inger]

Turn on BootCamp, install XP, then Vegas, and get to work. Apple hardware is expensive for what you get, but it looks pretty and will run Windows. So run Windows.

[ArthurDaley]

Right after the smart ass comments I found the solution so for anyone else Googling etc to convert from .M2T into .MOV for the Mac with loss use https://www.clipwrap.com

[Direwolf]

Wow, I can't believe you actually bumped your own thread from over a year ago.

Bump,

Over year later, same question outstanding.

On the Mac do we need to burn 45 GB (AIC .mov) to import and HD tape compared with 11 GB (.m2t) on the PC?

Regards

Maybe you could have googled and posted your tip first, https://www.clipwrap.com, instead of proceeding to insult people here and moan about your Mac purchase.

Dude - post something helpful ...

Right after the smart ass comments ...

But, hey, I guess you can add this post to your list of "unhelpful" replies.

Peace

[Kryton]

Does anyone know if this kind of situation will be easier to handle under the new revamped QuickTime in Snow Leopard?

[ArthurDaley]

Direwolf - I bumped it because I still did not have answer and of course I did some Googling. The slight insults comebecause Apple Fan Boys jump on everything in the most cult like manner, to such an extent that you don't get an answer to a straight question. In the end due to the Fan Boy Rage, rather than answers, I eventually found the answer and posted back. I love Apple products and OSX - but I wish the Fan Boys would tame it as they only act to discredit, when they jump into OTT reactions.