Trying to get consistent results creating stereo YouTube videos

[brassplyer]

After discovering a stereo video on YouTube I thought I'd try my hand at creating one but have been running into some aggravation in that the same steps don't seem to yield the same results from one instance to the next.

I read that the trick is to create an flv file to upload that manages to "fly under the radar" of YouTube's encoding process. My sense is that part of it is there's some threshold of data/time ratio you need to be below, but that apparently isn't the only criteria.

I first tried making a simple test file. In Pinnacle Studio 9 Plus, I created a black background with the words "Stereo Test" and combined with a .wav file I put together in Soundforge of a 44khz/16 bit tone with the pan alternating L to R. Saved as DV. Using the free version of Any Video Converter (AVC) I created the flv file and the following specs:

Size 220x176
Video bitrate 256 kbps
Framerate 15fps
Audio Codec mp3 (the only choice on flv files)
Audio rate 128 kbps
Sample rate 44.1
A/V Sync Basic

When loaded to YouTube and saved as a private video, it yielded good results - obvious stereo, the tone panned L & R.

However, when treating a short snippet of stereo video I captured as DV avi via pass-thru with my digital camcorder, with the same settings, this time the stereo field didn't survive the "YouTubization" process.

After some additional experimenting with parameters in AVC I was able to land on a combination that yielded a stereo field and pretty decent sound.

Video -

Dim - 220 x 176
Bitrate - 192
Frame- 15 fps

Audio

mp3
128 kbps
Sample rate 44.1
A/V Sync basic

Under audio tab

CBR default quality
Volume Normalize

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kU3gUZxQrLo

I happened to have a high quality video of this but there were some dropouts in the sound so instead of using the original audio from the video tape, I actually ripped the track off the album and sync'd it with the video. After combinging and resaving as DV avi via Pinnacle Studio, in Virtualdub I cropped and resized it to get rid of the switching noise on the bottom and some black space on the left, and also deinterlaced it. I think it came out pretty decent.

However, trying applying exact same treatment on another video segment, I don't get the same results even though the video is run through the same series of software. With some experimenting, I got a segment to come out stereo but at 48khz instead of 44.1 as on the previous video. At 44.1 YouTube now converts to mono. I tried lowiering the initial bitate for audio and using VBR and high quality, but find that doing anything with Variable bit rate in audio seems to ensure it won't stay stereo on YouTube. Also tried cutting back to 22050 hz on the audio but that doesn't seem to work out either.

Hoping someone can enlighten me on whatever issue(s) I'm not aware of that's the path to consistent success in getting stereo video to stay stereo on YouTube.

I'm also having issues with AVC giving strange results - at certain audio rates, I get no image, even if the audio is pretty good. Any explanation for this other a bug in the app?

Is there a better free flv converter than AVC? Are there any that give you more control over the parameters?

I'm going on minimal sleep fooling with this so if anything isn't clear please let me know and I'll be happy to clarify any points.


All input sincerely appreciated.

[jman98]

I'm not a YouTube uploader, but it seems to me that YouTube may be deliberately converting your sound to mono for 2 possible reasons.
1) Mono sound will take up less space than stereo. This will result in a cost savings to them in having to buy fewer disk drives to hold the videos. Just a slight change like this in all their videos could add up to substantial savings in money.
2) They may be deliberately trying to degrade the quality of submissions because they are not real found of people downloading the videos and encoding them to other formats.

Most likely it's #1, but I can't rule out #2. If it's #1, expect them to soon implement the same thing on 48 KHz audio.

Finally, I don't recommend using 22 KHz audio (surely you meant this instead of the 22050 Kbps you listed). It just unnecessarily screws up your audio (introduces all kinds of nasty artifacts) with no space savings. It makes things worse for no real reason.

[brassplyer]

I'm not a YouTube uploader, but it seems to me that YouTube may be deliberately converting your sound to mono for 2 possible reasons.

1) Mono sound will take up less space than stereo...
2) They may be deliberately trying to degrade the quality of submissions....

Now they're offering 2 levels of resolution on many videos - normal and "HQ" which I assume has to take up tremendously more resources so they don't seem to view this as a prime directive - video takes up a lot more space than audio. Of course "high quality" by YouTube standards from what I've seen basically means "less noticeable artifacts" I've seen videos from earlier days on YouTube that already looked tremendously better than others, I assume because some people got how to work the system - check out trailers for "Beowulf" among others.

If I wasn't trying to make the file stereo, I could have made the video I posted look better, but the video data rate appears to be crucial in trying to slip stereo sound through. And the better your source material, the better the results. On the video I posted, the video bitrate is actually quite low but it ends up looking decent. I don't think I've seen one with stereo that looks better.

Finally, I don't recommend using 22 KHz audio (surely you meant this instead of the 22050 Kbps you listed).

It was late...

It just unnecessarily screws up your audio (introduces all kinds of nasty artifacts) with no space savings. It makes things worse for no real reason.

My initial goal was doing what I could to save space while retaining a stereo field. Btw, now it's my turn to correct you a lower sample rate will yield a smaller file size - more samples means more data, and also higher frequency. Also just trying things to see what might work since the YouTube system is apparently finicky about how it handles certain things. But 44.1 or 48 in stereo is obviously better.

[k.]

[brassplyer]

Total bitrate (audio + video) must be under 345 kbps. The reason why the first video made it is because since there was no movement a much lower bitrate than the one you specified was actually used. Check out the specs with MediaInfo before uploading.

I appreciate the tip. Looks like an excellent utility.

a lower sample rate will yield a smaller file size

Not true. Sample rate is independent from file size.

I believe you're incorrect. Show me an example of two .wav files of the same material/length, say a minute long, where the only difference is the sample rate where file with the higher sample rate isn't larger than the file with the lower sample rate.

[webvideopro]

I thought that the no reencode FLV loophole was plugged a while back?

[k.]

[brassplyer]

I thought that the no reencode FLV loophole was plugged a while back?

I think I read something about that. Wasn't that something where people found a way to fool the YouTube system into allowing a higher bitrate file? As far as I can determine, you simply have to get under a certain bitrate threshold.

The one I posted above shows to be 326 kbs per Media Info

[k.]

[brassplyer]

YT doesn't allow the hack anymore: https://forum.videohelp.com/topic336882.html
The only way to "fool" the system now is by adding black frames at the end of the video.

How/why does this work? Is it because there's no audio on the huge blank portion therefore making the average bitrate lower?

You can't have a file with more than one video bitrate can you?

[kodaismahhussy]

It's very simple. The black portion of the video has a bitrate of approximately 35 kbps. Doh, the picture is depraved of information, and there's no sound.

It's really a game of calculations. You calculate how much bitrate your clip is going to take at a certain bitrate, but you have to keep it under a 350 kbps average, so you add as much blankness as possible while still keeping the video under 350 kbps (on average) and under 11 minutes in length. Your flv filesize should be kept under 28875 KB, in FLV1/MP3/ .flv format. Some of my results:
http://youtube.com/watch?v=RCk_7K7rc_Q
http://youtube.com/watch?v=57c2gE6ys1w

However, as it was stated in another thread, this may not have much meaning now that YouTube is reencoding clips to H.264/AAC (superior video/audio standards) on their own. You may be able to do a better job at encoding it manually to flv1/mp3 to some bizarre bitrate of 1100-1600 kbps than YT's 850 kbps H.264/AAC, but YT's routing or bandwidth limitations may disturb playback with slow loading times. So at this point you have to ask yourself whether the method is worth the end result. Gains may simply be too small.

I may be guilty of encoding YT clips to this hacky version in the future as well, but if you want YT to convert the videos for you, I suggest a nice H.264 encode at a constant quant that won't leave many artifacts (q 16-20) for your own work, but try keeping the source intact if it's not a 1st generation encode, and upload it as is if you don't plan on editing the material.

[brassplyer]

I may be guilty of encoding YT clips to this hacky version in the future as well, but if you want YT to convert the videos for you, I suggest a nice H.264 encode at a constant quant that won't leave many artifacts (q 16-20) for your own work, but try keeping the source intact if it's not a 1st generation encode, and upload it as is if you don't plan on editing the material.

Let's pretend I'm a bit fuzzy on what H.264 is...I assumed it's a video protocol/codec. What would I need to encode a video to this? Will VDub do it?

Also, will this H.64 conversion that YouTube does retain stereo?

[kodaismahhussy]

I can't say, but I assume you just need to up a video/audio that's as flawless as possible.

[k.]

[brassplyer]

It's very simple. The black portion of the video has a bitrate of approximately 35 kbps. Doh, the picture is depraved of information, and there's no sound.

The only problem is, how do you create the black portion with NO sound. If I try joining a black section of say 8 mins that has no audio to a 2 minute video in Pinnacle Studio, while the resulting DV file has 0 volume level, there's still an audio track. That portion by itself registers on MediaInfo as having an audio bitrate.

If I try appending an audio-less black section to the video with Virtuadub, it won't let me, says the "files have different sampling rates" showing the sound portion as 29.97000 and the black with no audio as 29.97003

[kodaismahhussy]

I use this program called FlvBind.exe that joins different flv clips together. I encode my video clip normally to flv1/mp3, then I create a second clip with ffmpeg and AviSynth using a script like this one:

blankclip(length=1580, width=480, height=360, fps=23.976, color=$000000)
killaudio()

After that I use FlvBind. There are other ways of doing this using AviSynth by directly appending blankclip(). Example script below:

LoadPlugin("E:\Fansubbing\dgdecode\DGDecode.dll")
basesource = mpeg2source("E:\chaoshead.d2v")
basevid = basesource.bicubicresize(480,360,0,1.00).converttoyv12().killaudio()
baseblankclip = basevid.blankclip(length=9700)
basevid+baseblankclip

But then you have to mux the audio in with a separate process, and also use a 2-pass encode for which you have to carefully calculate bitrate allocations.

[brassplyer]

I use this program called FlvBind.exe that joins different flv clips together.

Hey I really appreciate it.

However, how do I get it to read the folder my files are in. I got it to switch to reading my D: drive by typing D: but can't seem to get it to point to the particular folder. I tried a couple of test runs by copying files to the D: but would like to be able to steer it more precisely.

What dimensions are you using on those vids you were posting? Those are amazing.

[kodaismahhussy]

I just have the .exe in my work folder where I keep all the created .flvs.

FlvBind.exe merged.flv mergeme.flv blclip.flv

It's just a simple CLI tool, so I'm guessing that if you enclose your file path with " " it'll work just fine.

My usual YT video dimension is 480x360, but you can specify pretty much whatever you wish as long as you keep it under 350 kbps average and 11 mins.

[brassplyer]

Is there some way to tell YouTube where to get the sample frame from besides the 3 it gives you at the top? I discovered I get 3 black frames to choose from, not surprising since that's what makes up the majority of the video.

Does it always take the frames from the same place? If so it would be simple enough to insert a few frames in that spot.

Yeah, I know - what do I want, egg in my beer?

[TrevorM]

Hi - I've been reading this topic with interest.

I've been succesfully uploading in stereo to YouTube for the past few months (YouTube i/d: TrevMid). I've been using Any Video Converter to turn my mp4 files into flv, and it's always worked well; until now...

I've recently been trying to upload a new video, using exactly the same settings as previously. However, now, the video initially plays in stereo, then after about ten minutes it reverts to mono.

The AVC settings I use are as foillows:

FLV at 320x240 px
192 kb/s video (25 - fps)
128 kb/s audio (mp3) and 44100 Hz

and the MediaIno readings for this new video are

General
Complete name : C:\..........\The Smoke Of Eden (YouTube uload).flv
Format : Flash Video
File size : 9.50 MiB
Duration : 3mn 59s
Overal bit rate : 333 Kbps

Video
Format : H.263
Duration : 3mn 59s
Width : 320 pixels
Height : 240 pixels
Display aspect ratio : 4/3
Frame rate : 25.000 fps
Bits/(Pixel*Frame) : 0.000

Audio
Format : MPEG Audio
Format version : Version 1 / Layer 3
Format profile : Version 1 / Layer 3
Duration : 3mn 59s
Bit rate mode : VBR
Channel(s) : 2 channels
Sampling rate : 44.1 KHz
Resolution : 16 bits

Following advice from this and other threads, I've tried reducing the audio bitrate, reducing the video bitrate, adding black space on the end etc. I've managed to get the Overall Bit Rate as low as 192Kbps, but still the audio defaults back to mono after a few minutes up on the YouTube site.

Does anyone have any idea why this is happening? Any advice as to what can be done to bring this video in "under the radar" will be greatly appreciated.

[brassplyer]

Hi - back to mono after a few minutes up on the YouTube site.

Does anyone have any idea why this is happening? Any advice as to what can be done to bring this video in "under the radar" will be greatly appreciated.

That method of getting an average bitrate under 350kbps worked until YouTube changed the way their encoders work within the last few weeks.

You can still get stereo by uploading a high quality stereo file other than .flv - avi, xvid, .mov, but there's a trick. Apparently YouTube now creates both an .flv and an mpeg-4 file, probably by sensing when the file is over a certain bitrate. However, to get stereo, you have to add &fmt=18 to the URL when playing it. As far as I've seen, simply selecting "play in high quality" doesn't invoke stereo. I don't believe you can get stereo at all if you upload an .flv file.

Example, play this file which was uploaded as a .mov file

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eYhG1MnwZ_4

Now with the &fmt=18 added

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eYhG1MnwZ_4&fmt=18

Now that they've put the kibosh on "bitrate stuffing" I don't think it's possible to get YouTube to play stereo by default on newly uploaded files.

[rajman]

Well it looks like a New Stereo hack has been found...check this out:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uS2sXfYCz2E

[TrevorM]

Thanks for this, brassplyer.

Can you tell me the size of the AVI file you uploaded for your piece?

For my 3mins 59sec clip, a full screen (DV) AVI comes out at a massive 866MB. Full screen (MJPEG) AVI takes 219MB, and a medium quality 352x288 screen comes in at 93.2MB; but that is really quite poor quality...

Thanks again for your help.

[brassplyer]

Thanks for this, brassplyer.

Can you tell me the size of the AVI file you uploaded for your piece?

For my 3mins 59sec clip, a full screen (DV) AVI comes out at a massive 866MB. Full screen (MJPEG) AVI takes 219MB, and a medium quality 352x288 screen comes in at 93.2MB; but that is really quite poor quality...

Thanks again for your help.

The file I uploaded was a 37.8 meg 25fps 640x480 .mov file, approx 1700 kbps total which was made from a DV avi that was around 800 something megs, essentially like the one you mentioned.

[TrevorM]

Hi - I've been away for a week, so sorry about the gap in coming back on this.

I've tried creating a high-quality AVI file, converting to MOV, then uploading and playing back with a &fmt=18 addition to the URL. Sadly, it just doesn't seem to work for me - don't know why.

Are there any more thoughts, or have YouTube stuffed us? The track I'm wanting to upload really benefits from stereo, and I'd rather not bother than have it artificially reduced.

Cheers.

[brassplyer]

Hi - I've been away for a week, so sorry about the gap in coming back on this.

I've tried creating a high-quality AVI file, converting to MOV, then uploading and playing back with a &fmt=18 addition to the URL. Sadly, it just doesn't seem to work for me - don't know why.

Are there any more thoughts, or have YouTube stuffed us? The track I'm wanting to upload really benefits from stereo, and I'd rather not bother than have it artificially reduced.

How long have you waited before trying it? From what I've seen, the .flv file is created first and it can take some time for the higher quality file to be encoded by YouTube.

[tworegon]

If the link below doesn't play in wide sixties stereo, then you need to upgrade your browsers flash player. I couldn't get any stereo videos on youtube to play stereo with the &fmt=18 trick until I upgraded my flash player. You should be able to right click on the youtube video window to check your flash player's version. You should see "about adobe flash player. . .". Click on that, it should take you to the upgrade page on Adobe's website.

The latest version is:

9,0,124,0

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=97JDFPpf69Y&fmt=18

[TrevorM]

Cheers, guys! It looks like my problem was one of impatience!

It now works with the &fmt=18 suffix - check out http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2-7YQAmhnSM&fmt=18 for the proof of the pudding.

That said, I've set up an account with Dailymotion - an unfortunate name, but maybe a useful second string to YouTube.

Thanks again for your time and thoughts.

[freeloader105]

Hey guys, any new solutions to this situation? &fmt=18 is not really a good one.