why do people still use macs?

[narquespamley]

I appreciate the more recent sane, informed, and civil discourse.

Re/the $400 matx system in particular. Sounds like a good solution for you. That's great. As another pointed out, I take some issue from the realism of the price stackup including Windows. But if that number was incremental off stuff you already owned, hey that's fine too. Recapturing previous investment is a valid way to rationalize a purchase.

Personally, I had tried a similar system before, using a specially insulated chassis with low-speed fans, etc., and found that it was still too loud for the home theater application. For me. Another big issue was the full-size hard drives. I tried shock mounting them and special noise housings, but nothing really licked the irritation.

This is the chassis I repurposed into my Linux server, and it hums away happily in the closet of my home office.

Best case for a standard desktop PC these days is a 65W TDP Core2 Duo. More typical cheap PC's use 90W TDP CPu's. That's well above the worst-case power dissipation of my entire Mac Mini. Typically, it's closer to 30W while operating. Cheaper PC's tend to use even higher power CPU's. Not only does that take more fans to keep happy but power is not cheap either. BTW, the Mac Mini sits on a shelf which uses only about 1/2 the rack space of a best-case matx setup, and even that's a bit of a stretch given the need for increased airflow. Also, the machine is small enough that the wireless keyboard can sit next to it, the mouse and remote nestled in front.

I spent about $200 more than you did for a complete setup - true, complete, out-of-pocket costs - and as I have said am completely satisfied with the power and noise savings along the convenience I achieved with my choice.

[narquespamley]

Comparing company strength by stock price? Puhlease. Stock price is a completely artificial measure because you have to consider shares outstanding. Microsoft could do a 10:1 reverse split to get their stock price higher than Apple's but it would be a meaningless exercise which real investors would laugh at.

Look, I'm no Microsoft lover (while I'm generally satisfied with XP) but let's be clear on some facts.

Microsoft market capitalization: $280 billion
Apple market capitalization: $150 billion

Microsoft's total annual profits are about 4x that of Apples. Apple gets a higher share premium because their profits are rapidly increasing. That legitimately values their stock significantly higher as a multiple of earnings because the share price reflects a claim on all future earnings. Microsoft's earnings (and revenue) are essentially flat, largely due to the Vista debacle, which the market has rejected so vigorously that they're having to kill a perfectly good OS (XP) in order to force people to buy Vista. A year and a half after Vista's introduction for enterprises, most companies (including my own) continue to soundly reject it as too resource-intensive and too unstable (with little of benefit to justify) to roll out. The main reason people buy it is because PC OEM's typically don't offer a choice - other than to enterprise customers.

Both companies have fantastic franchises - Microsoft with PC OS and office suite, Apple with ipod and Mac. IMHO, Apple's franchise is more vibrant, while Microsoft is simply riding the momentum it inherited from monopolist market tactics. Virtually everything Microsoft has done outside of its direct monopoly control has been an abject business failure. (e.g. MSN, xbox, etc.)

But the reality remains that Microsoft will continue to dominate the desktop, with Apple (and IMHO Linux) slowly chipping away. The software and hardware ecosystems and user investments are simply too strong for anything else to happen. Microsoft the company - by all indications - will continue to stumble along, its profits and market entrenchment so strong that there is little incentive for the company to get its operational act together.

[ffooky]

From medium-sized acorns...

Most individuals in those markets may not pay for Windows granted but mindshare has value nontheless.

[iMacMan]

Wish I had money to fart around with like you. I remember when Apple was at $16. Now it's $168.94. Looks like they are doing something right!

They sure are - overcharging for products knowing that there are enough drooling people out there to be taken in by it all.

Thankfully, I'm not into form over function. Except for a few exceptions. And computers ain't one of 'em.

Overcharging? This is total BS! There's a reason why people are drooling.
If you want to buy a Yugo do it! At least you saved some money? Or did you?
All I hear from PC users is how much cheaper they are... I don't hear to much about how great they are?

http://bits.blogs.nytimes.com/2008/04/25/microsofts-vista-problem/?ref=technology

[iMacMan]

Comparing company strength by stock price? Puhlease. Stock price is a completely artificial measure because you have to consider shares outstanding. Microsoft could do a 10:1 reverse split to get their stock price higher than Apple's but it would be a meaningless exercise which real investors would laugh at.

Look, I'm no Microsoft lover (while I'm generally satisfied with XP) but let's be clear on some facts.

Microsoft market capitalization: $280 billion
Apple market capitalization: $150 billion

Microsoft's total annual profits are about 4x that of Apples. Apple gets a higher share premium because their profits are rapidly increasing. That legitimately values their stock significantly higher as a multiple of earnings because the share price reflects a claim on all future earnings. Microsoft's earnings (and revenue) are essentially flat, largely due to the Vista debacle, which the market has rejected so vigorously that they're having to kill a perfectly good OS (XP) in order to force people to buy Vista. A year and a half after Vista's introduction for enterprises, most companies (including my own) continue to soundly reject it as too resource-intensive and too unstable (with little of benefit to justify) to roll out. The main reason people buy it is because PC OEM's typically don't offer a choice - other than to enterprise customers.

Both companies have fantastic franchises - Microsoft with PC OS and office suite, Apple with ipod and Mac. IMHO, Apple's franchise is more vibrant, while Microsoft is simply riding the momentum it inherited from monopolist market tactics. Virtually everything Microsoft has done outside of its direct monopoly control has been an abject business failure. (e.g. MSN, xbox, etc.)

But the reality remains that Microsoft will continue to dominate the desktop, with Apple (and IMHO Linux) slowly chipping away. The software and hardware ecosystems and user investments are simply too strong for anything else to happen. Microsoft the company - by all indications - will continue to stumble along, its profits and market entrenchment so strong that there is little incentive for the company to get its operational act together.

So what company would you invest in?

[Dv8ted2]

Wish I had money to fart around with like you. I remember when Apple was at $16. Now it's $168.94. Looks like they are doing something right!

They sure are - overcharging for products knowing that there are enough drooling people out there to be taken in by it all.

Thankfully, I'm not into form over function. Except for a few exceptions. And computers ain't one of 'em.

Overcharging? This is total BS! There's a reason why people are drooling.
If you want to buy a Yugo do it! At least you saved some money? Or did you?
All I hear from PC users is how much cheaper they are... I don't hear to much about how great they are?

http://bits.blogs.nytimes.com/2008/04/25/microsofts-vista-problem/?ref=technology

Then you have not been listening. I love my computer. It is Great. It has more hardware and software choices.

[guns1inger]

Wish I had money to fart around with like you. I remember when Apple was at $16. Now it's $168.94. Looks like they are doing something right!

They sure are - overcharging for products knowing that there are enough drooling people out there to be taken in by it all.

Thankfully, I'm not into form over function. Except for a few exceptions. And computers ain't one of 'em.

Overcharging? This is total BS! There's a reason why people are drooling.
If you want to buy a Yugo do it! At least you saved some money? Or did you?
All I hear from PC users is how much cheaper they are... I don't hear to much about how great they are?

http://bits.blogs.nytimes.com/2008/04/25/microsofts-vista-problem/?ref=technology

Then you have not been listening. I love my computer. It is Great. It has more hardware and software choices.

But it's not a Mac, so you must be lying, and he can't hear you anyway.

[Dv8ted2]

Wish I had money to fart around with like you. I remember when Apple was at $16. Now it's $168.94. Looks like they are doing something right!

They sure are - overcharging for products knowing that there are enough drooling people out there to be taken in by it all.

Thankfully, I'm not into form over function. Except for a few exceptions. And computers ain't one of 'em.

Overcharging? This is total BS! There's a reason why people are drooling.
If you want to buy a Yugo do it! At least you saved some money? Or did you?
All I hear from PC users is how much cheaper they are... I don't hear to much about how great they are?

http://bits.blogs.nytimes.com/2008/04/25/microsofts-vista-problem/?ref=technology

Then you have not been listening. I love my computer. It is Great. It has more hardware and software choices.

But it's not a Mac, so you must be lying, and he can't hear you anyway.

He can choose to turn a blind eye and deaf ear to my statements, but that does not make it less true.

[iMacMan]

Wish I had money to fart around with like you. I remember when Apple was at $16. Now it's $168.94. Looks like they are doing something right!

They sure are - overcharging for products knowing that there are enough drooling people out there to be taken in by it all.

Thankfully, I'm not into form over function. Except for a few exceptions. And computers ain't one of 'em.

Overcharging? This is total BS! There's a reason why people are drooling.
If you want to buy a Yugo do it! At least you saved some money? Or did you?
All I hear from PC users is how much cheaper they are... I don't hear to much about how great they are?

http://bits.blogs.nytimes.com/2008/04/25/microsofts-vista-problem/?ref=technology

Then you have not been listening. I love my computer. It is Great. It has more hardware and software choices.

But it's not a Mac, so you must be lying, and he can't hear you anyway.

Thanks for showing us your intelligence and slinging your BS as usual.
You want to post shite about Macs your gonna get some shite back PC!
I don't care if you use a Yugo as your computer but I'm not going to take cheap shite from someone who knows MS DOS!

[Dv8ted2]

Wish I had money to fart around with like you. I remember when Apple was at $16. Now it's $168.94. Looks like they are doing something right!

They sure are - overcharging for products knowing that there are enough drooling people out there to be taken in by it all.

Thankfully, I'm not into form over function. Except for a few exceptions. And computers ain't one of 'em.

Overcharging? This is total BS! There's a reason why people are drooling.
If you want to buy a Yugo do it! At least you saved some money? Or did you?
All I hear from PC users is how much cheaper they are... I don't hear to much about how great they are?

http://bits.blogs.nytimes.com/2008/04/25/microsofts-vista-problem/?ref=technology

Then you have not been listening. I love my computer. It is Great. It has more hardware and software choices.

But it's not a Mac, so you must be lying, and he can't hear you anyway.

Thanks for showing us your intelligence and slinging your BS as usual.
You want to post shite about Macs your gonna get some shite back PC!
I don't care if you use a Yugo as your computer but I'm not going to take cheap shite from someone who knows MS DOS!

What does DOS have to do with this discussion? I am merely stating fact. You walk into any computer or electronics store, and you will find more stuff for PC's. You also never learned that vendor lock-in does not work. IBM learned that lesson in a very painful way. Most companies starting making computers that were IBM compatible. IBM eventually became an afterthought in the PC business.

[JohnnyMalaria]

I've put in more than 2000 hours using Vista. I've had exactly one BSOD - that was on the day I installed it. I was trying to get an old soundcard to work on the XP installation (which it didn't) and I needed to remove it. Since then, not a single glitch. No lock ups. No crashes. Reliable. 32- and 64-bit. 64-bit Vista is excellent. I do not like using XP anymore.

If you are going to bitch about something - e.g., Vista - do so from experience. i.e., use it for many hours (not just a quick play to subjectively validate your preconceived notions).

My experiences are Apple/Mac are:

1. I hate the company because of their attitude and business model
2. I find the products unappealling - especially the keyboards
3. I refuse to install any Apple software on my Windows machines because Apple break many of Microsoft's guidelines. Bits of iTunes and Quicktime are still littered throughout my XP install. If I want (no, need - I'll never want) to play a .mov file, I don't want f*cking iTunes as well. Maybe they've changed that. I believe QuickTime on Windows has been deliberated engineered to be crap so it can fair poorly against QuickTime on a Mac
4. I've never used OS X and likely never will. The Apple display at my local BestBuy won't let you actually *use* the computers. Just gawp at them with the demos running. I'd try OS X if it were available sans hardware.
5. Given the convergent evolution of the hardware, I'm sure that the computers are as robust as a decent Windows platform.

[Dv8ted2]

Microsoft's earnings (and revenue) are essentially flat, largely due to the Vista debacle, which the market has rejected so vigorously that they're having to kill a perfectly good OS (XP) in order to force people to buy Vista. A year and a half after Vista's introduction for enterprises, most companies (including my own) continue to soundly reject it as too resource-intensive and too unstable (with little of benefit to justify) to roll out. The main reason people buy it is because PC OEM's typically don't offer a choice - other than to enterprise customers.

I have used Vista in varying forms over the last year. I like it. It is very stable, and it is more secure that it's predecessor. I know of companies that are rolling out Vista. It is not as bad as you make it out to be. If you optimize it, it runs very well. Enterprises usually customize it to the way they want it, so you are way off base.

[aedipuss]

johhny malaria - for "testing" purposes if you have a spare intel p35 based comp hanging around, this is what i downloaded and successfully installed and then removed after a couple days, to move on to ubuntu 8.04.

KALYWAY_LEO_10.5.1 intel_SSE2_SSE3 - usenet or p2p

i really wanted it just to take final cut pro 6 for a test spin, but after reading all the bad customer feedback on it's homepage(which has been removed recently), i decided to skip it.

[ffooky]

I've put in more than 2000 hours using Vista. I've had exactly one BSOD - that was on the day I installed it. I was trying to get an old soundcard to work on the XP installation (which it didn't) and I needed to remove it. Since then, not a single glitch. No lock ups. No crashes. Reliable. 32- and 64-bit. 64-bit Vista is excellent. I do not like using XP anymore.

Is the wave of anti-Vista hysteria a product of user-idiocy and insufficiently powerful machines ? I've never used it myself but literally everyone I know personally who has, has some tale of woe (admittedly usually driver related). If a Linux distro could you run every application you use, would you still prefer to use Windows ?

My experiences are Apple/Mac are:

1. I hate the company because of their attitude and business model

Fair enough. Brings up the old H***** and the VW Beetle thing again

2. I find the products unappealling - especially the keyboards

We simpering metrosexuals feel your aesthetic/ergonomic pain

3. I refuse to install any Apple software on my Windows machines because Apple break many of Microsoft's guidelines. Bits of iTunes and Quicktime are still littered throughout my XP install. If I want (no, need - I'll never want) to play a .mov file, I don't want f*cking iTunes as well. Maybe they've changed that. I believe QuickTime on Windows has been deliberated engineered to be crap so it can fair poorly against QuickTime on a Mac

My XP partition has QuickTime Alternative and fb2k + VLC

4. I've never used OS X and likely never will. The Apple display at my local BestBuy won't let you actually *use* the computers. Just gawp at them with the demos running.

Blimey, the diametric opposite of an Apple Store. One bloke managed to write his entire novel in one, they let you play all day.

5. Given the convergent evolution of the hardware, I'm sure that the computers are as robust as a decent Windows platform.

Old hands will tell you that the convergence has led to a drop in quality control but I'm more willing to bet that stuff built in Newport/Cork/Prague was always more likely to be better than stuff built in Shanghai.

[lordsmurf]

I was referring to LordSmurf, or LordCheapo as the case may be. But as an answer, I don't remember ever purchasing a computer to meet a need. Ever. I always purchase the best I can afford or am willing to spend at the given time. Need is wayy to undefinable as a quantifiable measure to reflect a purchase of anything. In over 20 years of IT Managing or Administrating, or Consulting; I believe you will find it much more helpful to inquire when asked what their "plans" are for it rather than what their "needs" currently are. But that's getting into semantics and not really helpful..
As to what i'm referring to; the whining about Apple being the purveyors of selling less is more is soo weak as an argument. The Mini is not a desktop, nor is it a laptop. I've never seen it marketed as a laptop with parts missing, or a desktop that's half the overall computer for almost as much money. It's a computer.. That's all. It's not a baby, or a philosophy, or a piece of wisdom to be passed down from generation to generation. It's a computer for those who want what it offers. That's it. Nothing more. If the reason you do not like it is because of it's capabilities, then by all means look elsewhere.
But (and i know this happens more than you think) if you don't like it because the Price is too high for you. Then may I suggest looking to kiva.org and applying for one of their loans that will apparently change you life. Maybe that loan could be for a new Apple Computer. Think of the possibilities, you too could change your life with the simple act of borrowing money you don't have and paying more for that great computer deal later....

Thanks for being such a perfect example of how Mac users can sometimes be pricks.

For the record, your "needs" are supposed to already include your current plans. That's why you need it. Needs include planning for growth and other factors.

It's not about the price being "too high" or funding being unavailable, but rather a question of pissing money down a hole. Wasting funding is stupid. Especially if all you're getting from it is a so-called "aesthetically pleasing" interface. As you said "it's a computer". Who the hell cares if it has a curvy pink monitor, or the OS does all this fancy eye-candy crap? Certainly not a person who sees a computer as the tool it is.

If you want something expensive and pretty, quit wasting your time on a Mac. Go buy a ******* vase or a painting. Then you'll really be able to have those "measuring contests" with your friends, family, co-workers and neighbors. Although I must say, most people who do that don't really have friends, they piss of family, and it's the co-workers and neighbors that they measurebate with.

Apple makes great machines, they serve several purposes. But you'll pay for it. To think otherwise is to be divorced from reality. If it suits yours needs, great, budget for and buy one. If you just like it "because it's pretty", then you're a moron.

[thecoalman]

Who the hell cares if it has a curvy pink monitor, .

I think I would have to draw the line at a pink curvy monitor no matter how cheap it was.

[JohnnyMalaria]

Who the hell cares if it has a curvy pink monitor, .

I think I would have to draw the line at a pink curvy monitor no matter how cheap it was.

Surely, by its very definition, a pink curvy monitor IS cheap (and very tacky to boot).

[videopoo]

There are 2 reasons I HAVE to use a Mac:

Final Cut Studio & DVDAfterEdit. It all depends on what you do but I there are no affordable tools which come close to FCP tool set. Yes I could do the same work on a PC but it would take much longer.

AfterEdit is a must for anyone working in DVD production.

If you just like it "because it's pretty", then you're a moron.

Yeah...it's pretty dumb reason to buy a computer...but people eat it up. Folks love the interface and thats what sells Macs. Thats whats sells iPods as well. Folks who think they're buying a better computer don't know or care. I convinced my mom to buy a mac because shes clueless.....she called me the other day so happy how easy it is to use compared to her old PC

[ffooky]

There are 2 reasons I HAVE to use a Mac

Would you prefer not to have to use a Mac/OS X ?

[JohnnyMalaria]

But (and i know this happens more than you think) if you don't like it because the Price is too high for you. Then may I suggest looking to kiva.org and applying for one of their loans that will apparently change you life. Maybe that loan could be for a new Apple Computer. Think of the possibilities, you too could change your life with the simple act of borrowing money you don't have and paying more for that great computer deal later....

I hope you are being flippant or sarcastic.

I hope you are not seriously suggesting getting into unnecessary debt to buy something that depreciates to zip in less than half a decade. I suspect your red car is on tick. Enjoy it - for your will be working to the day you die to pay off your measurebating (great word from lordsmurf).

A marketeer's wet dream.

[videopoo]

Would you prefer not to have to use a Mac/OS X ?

If FCP and AfterEdit were PC, I wouldn't touch a Mac as long as I live. It the little things I hate about macs...renaming files, expanding windows. Not a big deal but it makes me so angry when I'm in a hurry.

[ffooky]

I get the expanding windows but not renaming. Forgive my ignorance but I've never renamed a file in Windows; how is it quicker ?

[aedipuss]

renaming a file in windows - right click on file/choose rename/give it the new name/done. mac?

[videopoo]

I have to rename files all the time. Let say I want to work on a copy of an original Photoshop file and want to use it in another project. I like renaming those files. It all depends on workflow but for me PCs just seem more responsive to simple tasks.

Its all Apples and Oranges but the truth is that there are just some great tools out there which are Mac only. FCP and AfterEdit are two that are a must for me.

DVDSP is another tool. I use Scenarist so its of no use to me but nothing affordable comes close to it in features and functionality. Yes, there is DVDLab but I'm wary of using it since they have advised not to use it in a professional environment. I'd post a link to that statement but they've since taken it off their site a couple months ago. Maybe this has changed if they have been licensed but just the fact they don't have an emulator is reason enough.

[ffooky]

renaming a file in windows - right click on file/choose rename/give it the new name/done. mac?

Click on file, hit return, rename the file. If you have extensions displayed, in Leopard only the filename is highlighted for renaming which is a major improvement on earlier versions where you'd have to manually dehighlight it which was indeed a pain.

[aedipuss]

ffooky sounds about the same to me...

[Video Head]

I appreciate the more recent sane, informed, and civil discourse.

Re/the $400 matx system in particular. Sounds like a good solution for you. That's great. As another pointed out, I take some issue from the realism of the price stackup including Windows. But if that number was incremental off stuff you already owned, hey that's fine too. Recapturing previous investment is a valid way to rationalize a purchase.

Personally, I had tried a similar system before, using a specially insulated chassis with low-speed fans, etc., and found that it was still too loud for the home theater application. For me. Another big issue was the full-size hard drives. I tried shock mounting them and special noise housings, but nothing really licked the irritation.

This is the chassis I repurposed into my Linux server, and it hums away happily in the closet of my home office.

Best case for a standard desktop PC these days is a 65W TDP Core2 Duo. More typical cheap PC's use 90W TDP CPu's. That's well above the worst-case power dissipation of my entire Mac Mini. Typically, it's closer to 30W while operating. Cheaper PC's tend to use even higher power CPU's. Not only does that take more fans to keep happy but power is not cheap either. BTW, the Mac Mini sits on a shelf which uses only about 1/2 the rack space of a best-case matx setup, and even that's a bit of a stretch given the need for increased airflow. Also, the machine is small enough that the wireless keyboard can sit next to it, the mouse and remote nestled in front.

I spent about $200 more than you did for a complete setup - true, complete, out-of-pocket costs - and as I have said am completely satisfied with the power and noise savings along the convenience I achieved with my choice.

$400 easily...did you check out redwudz $247 mITX build?

Mine sits in my A/V rack perfectly and looks like a piece of A/V gear not an oversized iPod. I have a glass door on the front of the rack and with it closed there is no fan noise - exhaust at the rear using a 120mm 800rpm Scythe with the Sony bearing and passive intake at the front. Runs all day at a constant 38 degrees with the door closed. I never hear the drive - it would never stand a chance over the surround sound anyways. My mouse and remote control are on the other side of the room because that's where I operate the system from. I hardly ever use the keyboard and it sits on a shelf in the rack that used to be occupied by a DVD player. I am considering one of the new Logitech Dinovo Bluetooth mini keyboards in the clamshell to replace the fullsize keyboard and mouse. The cost of power for the media center is not a concern.

I considered the Mac Mini when I first started investigating building a media center. I quickly dismissed it due to the complete lack of expandability, small hard drive and the Intel graphics with 64MB of shared memory. I have 128MB of dedicated video memory on an ATI AIW 9800 Pro Radeon AGP card. And yes, that is included in the $400 - I guess Mac'rs just can't believe that a purpose built computer can cost so little. Probably because they are so used to paying so much to get so little. Or maybe I am just a better shopper, spec'ing and sourcing components that meet the technical requirements but are, or are close to, EOL. I also don't pay exhuberant sums to have it built. 30 minutes with a philips screwdriver and Arctic Silver is all that is required. If you want something done right...but some people are not comfortable with building things and I have now assembled a half dozen similar builds for friends.

It's a media center...it should have card slots for all the media cards you use, it should have front USB ports for connecting MP3 players, phones, cameras, etc. And it should fit into the look of the system. One of my build goals was to make it look like it belonged, I never wanted anyone to ask "what's that?". But I think that's exactly what Mac owners do want... "Please notice my Mac. PLEASE!"

This was not susposed to be this long!

[ffooky]

Yep.

[Video Head]

As with most (all ?) tech stocks, the share value bears little to no relationship the actual value of the company or it's product.

If you have heard of the company RIM (Research in Motion) then you probably know what a Blackberry is. Blackberry is kind of popular out there. RIM stock has been Wallstreet's sugar daddy for a while now. But everyone is always trying to find the next RIM and buy in early. Several analysts have suggested that with Apple revamping the iPhone to meet more corporate user demands and compete with the Blackberry that Apple could be the next RIM. Those statements spawned quiet a few buy orders that drove the stock up on speculation not on business results.

Apple's business results have also been impressive and have contributed to the healthy share price. Most of the business results are attributed to the iPod and Apple's on-line music store, not computers. Once again, it is difficult to tell if Apple is a media company or a computer company.

[JohnnyMalaria]

ffooky sounds about the same to me...

You can also left double-click slowly...