why do people still use macs?

[louv68]

the convincing argument is they(macs) work with less hassle and allow you to actually get work done instead of having to call the IT department or deal with driver hassles and don't even get me started on the malware, virus situation that exists on pcs..it is also well documented that macs are cheaper in the long run and there is a quicker ROI..yes, macs are more expensive the day you purchase them but most users fail to see the long term cost..i know several people that have switched from pcs to macs and they all had 1 big complaint, that they didn't make the switch SOONER...

Perhaps some of this is true, but how much good audio/video freeware is available for Macs? I think they are good computers, but if you want no cost to low cost applications, you're hosed if you use a Mac. Just take a look at the Mac tools section and you'll know exactly what I'm talking about. My friend who is a Mac fanboy, hands me projects he or his friend who also uses a Mac cannot do. He gets so flustered when I tell him I use mostly free tools. I've also told him that if he wants, he can use his Windows emulator to run those same tools.

[guns1inger]

the convincing argument is they(macs) work with less hassle and allow you to actually get work done instead of having to call the IT department or deal with driver hassles and don't even get me started on the malware, virus situation that exists on pcs..it is also well documented that macs are cheaper in the long run and there is a quicker ROI..yes, macs are more expensive the day you purchase them but most users fail to see the long term cost..i know several people that have switched from pcs to macs and they all had 1 big complaint, that they didn't make the switch SOONER...

If all you want to do it browse the web, type up a word document and answer some emails, and you get one that doesn't have hardware issues, then this is probably true. However, Apple products have a disproportionately high number of hardware quality issues - to the point where Australian Choice Magazine named the iPod as lemon product of the year for 2006 because the fault rate.

Again, if what they can do, and the software you need, is available, then by all means. Next time my parents need to by a new PC, I will probably suggest they get a Mac because they don't need to do a lot with it.

However the software I use daily has no equivalent on the Mac. Nothing even comes remotely close. I happily run XP SP2. I never have virus and spyware problems, it has never crashed, and all my software runs very nicely. For less than the price of the cheapest Mac Book I run a quad core with 2 GB DDR2, 20x DL burner, 500GB of HDD and a 23 inch LCD screen. To do the same with an iMac (to compare desktops to desktops) would cost me twice as much. And this kit will grow with my needs and parts of it will last 5 years. The iMac will be too old and slow in two years (unless all I am doing is email and web browser (but not streaming HD video like everyone else will be by then).

So please, don't use Apples advertising campaign as an argument - it simply doesn't hold up.

[pixel zombie]

what projects are they trying to do exactly?

[pixel zombie]

it's not a campaign, it's a well documented fact..we're not talking about ipods btw...

[guns1inger]

I am talking about iMacs and Mac Book Pros. We have 8 iMacs and 2 Mac Book Pros. 6 out of the 8 iMacs have had to be returned for hardware failures. 3 of them have been returned twice. One of the Mac Books has been back for repairs. These machines get treated a lot more gently than the 600+ Toshiba notebooks, yet we have far fewer failures per unit of population with the Toshibas.

We also have another 15 Mac Books belonging to students. Most were purchased over Christmas, and so came with Leopard. They are all uniformly sluggish to use, and all of them have had issues with connecting to our wireless network using secure protocols. While they will happily connect, they will not do so automatically, and must manually connected after a reboot or returning from sleep state.

We also have a large selection of software that seems to have to be updated after every point release of OS X. 10.3 -> 10.4 breaks them. 10.4 -> 10.5 breaks them. The same software running under XP has worked through the life of XP.

As I said in my original post, the TCO for our small community of Macs is 5 - 10 per times per unit than that of our windows boxes. It should not be. But the fact is that's the case. And to get it rectified will cost 1.5 - 2 times the hourly rate of an equivalent Windows engineer, and take more hours (based entirely on the quotes provided to me thus far)

I don't deny there are issues with drivers under windows from time to time, especially pre-XP. In part, this is the price of choice, and in the case of Vista, sheer bloody mindedness on the part of Vendors. And yes, Vista should not have rolled out until SP1 was slip-streamed in (just like Leopard should have waited until the 10.5.2 release was rolled in).

As for Fact - the I'm a PC/I'm a Mac series was demonstrably untrue, or compared pre-XP against OS X. Having grown up through the pre-OS X period of Mac development, I can see why they didn't compare apples with apples. It would have been too embarrassing (although an ad that stopped halfway through for no reason, showing a little bomb icon with no explanation, would have been funny)

[iMacMan]

why do people still use macs?

1. Macs work
2. Macs last (anybody own a Dell? etc...) :P
3. Macs have a solid OS :P
4. Macs don't know the words: spyware/adware/anyware
5. Macs are better looking without the chance of getting a disease (virus)

I could start a new topic if you all want?: why do people still use Windows/Vista?

My bad... Macs do that too and who would want that anyways?

Anyways, whatever platform you use is completely up to you! It's not rocket science. Whatever works is the best solution Mac or PC?

[lenti_75]

why do people still use macs?

1. Macs work
2. Macs last (anybody own a Dell? etc...) :P
3. Macs have a solid OS :P
4. Macs don't know the words: spyware/adware/anyware
5. Macs are better looking without the chance of getting a disease (virus)

I could start a new topic if you all want?: why do people still use Windows/Vista?

My bad... Macs do that too and who would want that anyways?

Anyways, whatever platform you use is completely up to you! It's not rocket science. Whatever works is the best solution Mac or PC?

this whole topic is gay...... everything is breakable and all are the same, mac boy ...

[Dv8ted2]

T

5. Vista's a disaster: I've yet to meet more than two people who actually like Windows Vista. One large corporation recently upgraded their IBM Thinkpads running Win2k to Lenovo Thinkpads running Vista: the IT department hates everything about the machines and the employees hate everything about them as well. It doesn't help that the company also purchased the new MS Office and the DOX format has gone over about as well as the WPS format. These people did one of two things, A) Wipe their PCs and install WinXP knowing that this is only a temporary solution, or B) Switched to a Mac and dual-booted WinXP to transition to OS X and use Windows as needed. Even Microsoft can see Vista is a mess hence the rush to get Windows 7 out quickly; they know Vista is the new ME... and so does Apple.

I run Vista Business SP1 on two computers without any issues. I also ran Vista Ultimate SP1 in my last job. I work in IT. I like Vista so you have now met more than two people that like Vista. In IT, if you do not adapt, you get left behind.

Macs are essentially the same hardware, but you pay more to run an obscure OS. There is also not the range of hardware and software choices that you have within the PC Realm.

I would not even wipe my feet with thinkpads. I hate them with a passion. IBM could not really make good computers, which is why they sold their computer division to Lenovo.

[louv68]

what projects are they trying to do exactly?

These are the two big ones:
1. He hasn't been able to decrypt some of his DVD's.
2. He had trouble converting some formats to DVD and also had some audio/video synch problems. He just recently "bought" an application and is now able to do them himself. I've been using free ones for a few years to do the same.

It pretty much boils down to this. With a PC, you have many free options. With a Mac, you are very limited when it comes to free or low cost software. Good computers, but they have you guys by the gnads. If it wasn't for this, I'd probably have a Mac next to my PC now.

[edDV]

Again, if what they can do, and the software you need, is available, then by all means. Next time my parents need to by a new PC, I will probably suggest they get a Mac because they don't need to do a lot with it.

I put a MacMini (inside network) downstairs for family and guests to use. There's also an isolated XP PC (in DMZ) for gamers or other internet use. I periodically restore the OS partition on the PC whenever people report problems.

The PC seems to get more use although I have one iLife fan.

[JohnnyMalaria]

5. Vista's a disaster: I've yet to meet more than two people who actually like Windows Vista.

+1 to your tally of people who like using Vista.

Since November 2006, I have probably put in more than 2000 hours using Vista primarily for software development. I put a lot of stress on it and it never falters. I do all my other stuff on Vista, too. The only time I go into XP is to make sure the software I have developed on Vista works correctly.

Such is my overriding preference for Vista that right now I am using a laptop with XP on it but connected via Remote Desktop to my Vista machine.

Just because most of what you here about Vista is doom and gloom, it doesn't mean there aren't more than two people on this planet satisfied with it. Go to other video-related forums and you can read that for yourself.

Vista works for me. But I don't have to create forum threads born of insecurity to somehow validate my decision.

[filmboss80]

I hate to reveal my age, but in the early 80s, my first computer experience was beta testing Apple's first GUI system, the Lisa. I then migrated to the first-generation Mac and was comfortable with it. But then I started working for a corporation that only had PCs with CPM and MS-DOS. I hated those PCs at first, but they evolved nicely over the years. After starting my own company in the mid-90s, I discovered how easily it was to customize and build my own PCs to my own specs. It saved loads of money. Many Mac users I know these days are too intimidated to build and service their own systems, so they shell out more bucks for peace of mind. It's their choice. I have my preferences, and I have the balls to build my own. It's my choice.

[ffooky]

I just checked, I have testicles too. Smaller than a Windows user's maybe but still perfectly formed.

[edDV]

I'm happy with Vista on my new laptop and one desktop. So long as you stick with Vista ready apps and Vista drivers, all is fine. I also run 3 XP machines for various tasks such as general video edit, TV home theater and games/general use. Most of the apps running on those machines are not Vista ready.

My Vista laptop has never crashed or needed reboot. The Vista desktop has some drivers that will crash the machine when certain apps are running. Hopefully the driver issues will be corrected. XP was like this when new.

I maintain (dual boot) Tiger on the MacMini since Leopard still has compatibility issues. Its a similar situation to XP vs Vista.

[iMacMan]

this whole topic is gay...... everything is breakable and all are the same, mac boy ...

What this topic shows is your a PC user that thinks everything is breakable and the same?
How insightful... Now that's hilarious!
As I said before, "Whatever works is the best solution Mac or PC?."
Have a nice day PC boy

[pixel zombie]

what projects are they trying to do exactly?

These are the two big ones:
1. He hasn't been able to decrypt some of his DVD's.
2. He had trouble converting some formats to DVD and also had some audio/video synch problems. He just recently "bought" an application and is now able to do them himself. I've been using free ones for a few years to do the same.

It pretty much boils down to this. With a PC, you have many free options. With a Mac, you are very limited when it comes to free or low cost software. Good computers, but they have you guys by the gnads. If it wasn't for this, I'd probably have a Mac next to my PC now.

i have only come across 1 DVD that i havn't been able to decrypt and that was a dvd-r, not a commercial release..i was using ffmpeg(which is free) to make video conversions but after seeing how robust mpeg2works is and how well the author supports the application i forked over the money for an excellent shareware product...

[Cyrax9]

JohnnyMaleria and Dv8ted2: I know there are a few Vista users who like their OS, but on average most people I know with Vista absolutely hate it. Keep in mind I know the scenario -- I was one of the people who liked Windows ME which is what Vista is often related to. Usually Vista owners ask me the same basic set of questions ME owners used to ask me about downgrading/side-grading, or they get so fed up that they simply avoid the OS. I know some people like Vista, but like OS X users, they're a minority -- most people I know are running Vista "because they have to" (in reality "because they don't have any technical skills/Microsoft says too") not because they really want to. As for the ThinkPad, I wouldn't touch one with a 10' pole these days, and I usually recommend ThinkPad users who NEED Windows (as in need a very Windows-specific program) to use Dells or to grab a MacBook Pro and run Bootcamp with it which seems to be the preferred route for those who can afford it -- most people I know wind up slowly (and possibly unintentionally) booting into OS X more than Windows. You're also right about the choices of hardware and software, but again, running Bootcamp on a Mac Pro really does change that a bit, although as the "Disclaimer" says, "Windows on a Mac is like Windows on a PC," so you get the good and the bad. In truth, I haven't needed a Windows-capable machine regularly though in the past year or so, but if I did, I do have the capability to run one.

guns1inger: Do they use different parts in Australian Macs than in the rest of the world? You've got to be the 20th person I know of down under whose had perpetual hardware issues with Apple -- my friends in the UK haven't reported hardware failures, nor have my friends in Canada, or my contacts in Japan so I know it's not just the USA that's getting the high-quality machines. I'm really curious about this now because I find it odd that this seems isolated to Australia. I'm also curious to know what you're doing with video that can't be done on a Mac, because I've worked on professional pieces that never once touched a windows machine until they were finished. I've also tested rendering the same After Effects footage on a PC and on a Mac that were comparably equipped with one major difference: the Windows PC had 2GB RAM and the Mac had 512MB RAM -- the Mac rendered a file in the space of 10 minutes, the PC did so in the space of an hour. I ran the test again, and again... and a fourth time to make sure that it was accurate, which it was. Premiere Pro and FCP were more evenly matched with the same RAM difference (2GB Windows vs. 512MB Mac,) but as soon as I put 2GB of RAM in the Mac that changed and a file that took about an hour and a half to render on both machines took only about 15 minutes on the Mac. I haven't had the chance to do Premiere Pro vs. Premiere Pro yet, but that's my next goal. 10.5 "Leopard" is really more like 10.1 than 10.4 as far the amount of overhaul to the code that was done goes which may explain the speed-related issues. I've noticed a minor slow-down on the PPC-based Macs I have running Leopard, although that's gradually changing, and I haven't noticed a speed change on the Intel Macs I have running Leopard -- I also keep a few machines running Tiger because I don't like to upgrade in the middle of projects, but when I put Leopard on my father's machine for him (he was running 10.2.8 Panther still) it was a much welcome upgrade.

iMacMan:
1. This is true, but PCs running Ubuntu work too, and so do some Windows machines; the law of probability favors the Mac here so this one really isn't fair.

2. This is admittedly why out of the 15 computers I have in my household, six of them are Macs, and all of them are functional -- including the 1994(?) Performa my best friend gave to me last year which I'm cleaning up once I get some free time. My PowerBookG4 has to last seven years (until 2010 which seems very feasible) to beat out my Gateway2000 as the longest-lasting PC that I was the original owner of -- the Gateway2000 lasted 6 years and was on its last leg for the last two of them. The last PC I purchased pre-built was an Alienware and that lasted five years if you include the four times I had to rebuild the damn thing -- if we're excluding all of the returns to the factory for hardware repairs, then the Alienware lasted exactly one month before dying on me. As for Dell, my first PC was a Dell and that lasted four years before I absolutely had to change computers because of the sheer number of problems with it... I wanted a Mac and was using them in grade school at the time.

3. OS X is solid, but it does have room for improvement as do all OS's, ditto for Linux which is also a solid OS -- it's just not widely adopted, although that Alienware box of mine is now running Ubuntu for this reason. (I don't feel like dual-booting.)

4. This is low blow/cheap shot -- Macs do know spyware/adware just like PCs, they just know less of it. Inept Mac users are just as good at picking this stuff up as inept PC users, while Mac users who understand the OS are just as safe as PC users who understand windows.

5. Also not entirely true, Macs are equally capable of being infected with malware, but most hackers would rather target Microsoft HQ than Grandma's cookie shop; this is security through obscurity, but we'll pick up on that in a second.

Regarding the PWN2OWN competition:
First, as of yesterday Apple patched Safari fixing the flaw used in PWN2OWN. Second, PWN2OWN doesn't reflect the overall nature of Mac security. Yes, it's true that Macs are equally capable of being hit with a virus as PCs are, but most hackers don't bother to target Macs; see the previous statement about hacking MS HQ vs. Grandma's cookie shop. I realize that this is security through obscurity, I realize that it's unreliable, but I also realize that it works, and that's ultimately what matters; and if it doesn't work, that's why I have virus detection and removal software installed on my Mac, just as I would on my PC, and just as anyone should on any computer.

The only machine left standing at the end of PWN2OWN was an Ubuntu machine -- the Vista Machine fell to an Adobe Plug-in, while the Mac fell to a flaw in Safari. Now let's be realistic here for a moment, the flaw in an Adobe plug-in is far more dangerous than a flaw in Safari. Most Mac users set up their machines by using Safari to download Firefox long enough to remove or at least disable Safari from their system, or at the very least, take it's icon out of the dock -- lazy users just don't bother launching the application. Only a truly insane Mac Zealot that refuses to run any third party software would use Safari as their primary browser -- most Mac user's know it's equally as functional as IE and like PC users, Mac users run FireFox. Anyone running Safari or IE 7 needs their head examined. As far as banning Safari from Paypal goes, all I can say is "GOOD!" Now maybe PayPal will practice what they preach considering the fact that their entire system is built on software riddled with security flaws and excessive fees coupled with the most idiotic and legally questionable EULA in existence. I don't want Safari handling my money anymore than I want IE handling my money, and I tolerate (but in no way, shape, or form) endorse PayPal because it's easy to use -- the moment I see something better I'd drop PayPal like a hot rock, just like I dropped Safari and IE 7 for FireFox the day I found out about it.


Back to guns1inger though as I'd like to address his three categories:

- Zealot: I don't think this is reflective of the majority of Mac users so much as it's reflective of how LOUD the most obnoxious of us can be--these are the users that ruin it for everyone -- don't get me wrong, I love my Mac, but I have my friends who love their Windows 98 machines from 10 years ago and my friends who will still use their TRS-80 because they love the TRS-80. When it comes to that amount of dedication, I know one Apple II user who had her machine for 20 years and was using it as her primary computer until a group of friends bought her an iMac a few years ago. Why? She needed a glorified typewriter and saw no need to upgrade from the Apple II until her colleagues finally got fed up with trying to keep the Apple II capable of functioning with 21st Century software. In truth I can understand why she did this -- she didn't need anything better than the Apple II and it was fully functional, so I can't really consider her a Zealot so much as thrifty because I know Windows users who try to do the same thing -- usually with Windows 3.1 machines. I do know the type though, and they're obnoxious -- most Mac users will at least admit that Safari is joke and that Linux is also a great (or at the very least good) OS as well. Likewise Mac users usually know that they can't run everything a Windows machine can, but they don't have a need for everything Windows includes. These people are no different than the Microsoft fanboys who love every bit of Windows -- Red Screen and all, and are equally obnoxious; I occasionally fantasize about handcuffing a Mac Zealot to a Windows Zealot and letting them have at. The ensuing boxing match could be shown on pay-per-view to prove that geeks really can be as stupid as jocks when they want to be.

Old School: I see a lot of these, but it's hard to lump college students that just bought their first Mac into this category, and most of them did so because they were sick of Windows and wouldn't know Linux if it hit them on the head. These people are also interested in programs like Photoshop, InDesign, Illustrator, Maya, Final Draft 7, and other applications that most people will never use. The people I'd put here are the Mac users who look at the Zealots and just wish they'd shut up -- they enjoy their platform but aren't obsessed with it.

The Easily Led, or the Sheeple: You summed these people up pretty well, these are the same knuckleheads in the Windows world that buy a new PC every time Microsoft puts out a new OS rather than upgrading the machine they have. They're the ones who have desktops with names like DELL slapped on the front of them and can't tell the MoBo from the Graphics Card, and no matter what they use you could sell them anything. These are the same people who buy Hummers to go camping, but wouldn't know what a sleeping bag was if one fell on them. In that Mac world I think they may be worse than the zealots because they don't know what the heck they're doing with a Mac and they're likely to cause problems for those of us that do. As obnoxious as the zealots are, and as ignorant as they act, they usually do know how to handle the Mac OS; the easily led are just here for the free ride.

I'd like to add a fourth category though because it seems to be the group I'm seeing more and more of:
- The Progressive-Activist-Pragmatists: These are your high school/college students, and your recent (past-three years) graduates. They grew up around Windows machines in the 90s and probably cut their teeth on Windows 95, but they either had a friend or a relative with a Mac from the "glory days" in the 80s, or grew up around someone who knew the Mac OS, and probably used both platforms as children. These are also people who probably didn't fit in when they were younger, were branded dorks/geeks/nerds, and are often involved in grassroots campaigns and other niche activities. They're generally disdainful of corporations like Wal*Mart and Microsoft, and like the zealots, view them as "evil," but are actually able to hold a genuine dialogue as to why they dislike these entities, and can respond with an answer other than "they're corporations" and "it's Microsoft" or some variant of those two phrases. What's more, this group is much more pragmatic than the zealots -- they're reasoning for purchasing a Mac might go along the lines of "I've used Windows, I really liked 98SE, but I don't like where it's going, so I want to try something different," or "I talked to a few friends, I used their Macs/Linux boxes, I compared them to my PC, and I decided to go with the Mac." These people have reasons behind their purchase, but they've used Windows, they'll acknowledge the Mac's flaws, and they're probably give Microsoft credit for Win98/98SE being good OS's and they might also throw XP into that group, but they're looking for something different than what they have. These people are probably also console-gamers rather than PC gamers and don't see games as an important part of their computer system, or if they do, the games they want to play are usually DOS-based and will run under DOSBox without a problem.

I would fall mostly into the latter group. The first machine my family owned was a Dell with Windows 3.1 that I knew more about than my father did. I was a DOS gamer, and my first machine was a Dell that I loved to tinker with. Before I owned a computer though, I had a neighbor with a Commodore 64, and a school that ran Apple II's, and I used to go to a computer camp with TRS-80s. My best friend was a Mac user and when my other friends got computers they usually ran Windows. I personally ran Windows exclusively up until 2003 and began running OS X almost exclusively (I also run Ubuntu Linux,) in 2006. I've built a PC -- it runs WinME and Ubuntu Linux, and I built it to play old Windows games and to mess around with Linux. My reasons for buying Macs were that I was sick of Windows, I was sick of fixing machines running Windows, I was sick of dealing with people who couldn't use Windows, I needed to shut my mother up so I could sleep rather than troubleshoot Windows, I wanted to run OS X as well as Linux, I was impressed with OS X after I first used it and compared it to WinXP and WinME, and I went with the machine that I felt best suited my needs.

There are things about my Mac(s) that I like, and there are things that I don't like (Safari comes to mind as a useless app,) and if my Mac crashed as often as my PCs did I'd probably look elsewhere for a new machine. The simple fact is that my G4 laptop which takes a beating with processor/memory-intensive work has only kernel-panicked seven times since 2003 that I can count, my Intel-based Mac Mini has never kernel panicked, and I haven't set my Mac Pro up yet. The other machines are really my brothers and I've yet to set up the Performa from my friend so I'm not counting those. Compare that to my Alienware which threw up a blue screen on a daily basis -- often more than once -- and you have the reason I switched; my girlfriend switched because I switched and she saw how much happier I was with OS X. She's had her first Mac for about two years now, and she loves it, but she's not obsessed with it.

[Dv8ted2]

JohnnyMaleria and Dv8ted2: I know there are a few Vista users who like their OS, but on average most people I know with Vista absolutely hate it. Keep in mind I know the scenario -- I was one of the people who liked Windows ME which is what Vista is often related to. Usually Vista owners ask me the same basic set of questions ME owners used to ask me about downgrading/side-grading, or they get so fed up that they simply avoid the OS. I know some people like Vista, but like OS X users, they're a minority -- most people I know are running Vista "because they have to" (in reality "because they don't have any technical skills/Microsoft says too") not because they really want to. As for the ThinkPad, I wouldn't touch one with a 10' pole these days, and I usually recommend ThinkPad users who NEED Windows (as in need a very Windows-specific program) to use Dells or to grab a MacBook Pro and run Bootcamp with it which seems to be the preferred route for those who can afford it -- most people I know wind up slowly (and possibly unintentionally) booting into OS X more than Windows. You're also right about the choices of hardware and software, but again, running Bootcamp on a Mac Pro really does change that a bit, although as the "Disclaimer" says, "Windows on a Mac is like Windows on a PC," so you get the good and the bad. In truth, I haven't needed a Windows-capable machine regularly though in the past year or so, but if I did, I do have the capability to run one.

All throughout your long diatribe, you missed several points. People do not like change. Vista is nowhere like ME. Vista was a radical rethinking of Microsoft's security paradigm. Most people do not understand the underpinnings of the operating system and they gripe about stupid stuff. Users were griping about how insecure windows XP was, but now they are clinging to an insecure operating system like there was no tomorrow. Vista will be around longer than ME was. The driver issue is starting to be corrected, and the developers are slowly starting to back away from providing XP drivers. HP is a perfect example. I like Vista for the security benefits. That is my nature.

I used to use the Apple II C and E. I used MACS and PC's in school. I have long held the same belief that the security through obscurity method would eventually catch up to MAC users. They are usually too content with themselves that they just spent twice the dollar amount of what a generic computer would cost. They drink the same kool-aid that Steve Jobs dishes out and have become brainwashed.

[guns1inger]

@Cyrax9

I do a lot of work transferring VHS sources to DVD, and my standard tool kit is based around avisynth and virtualdub (mostly the former) for restoration. While there are basic filters built into some of the simple video encoder for the Mac, there is nothing at all like avisynth.

I am also a Vegas user, as Premiere has never impressed me on any platform. I will hopefully get to play more with FCP later this year, but an editor is not enough to make me change platforms, regardless of how good it might be, if it is only useful for clean sources.

[JohnnyMalaria]

As for the ThinkPad, I wouldn't touch one with a 10' pole these days, and I usually recommend ThinkPad users who NEED Windows (as in need a very Windows-specific program) to use Dells or to grab a MacBook Pro and run Bootcamp with it which seems to be the preferred route for those who can afford it -- most people I know wind up slowly (and possibly unintentionally) booting into OS X more than Windows.

What???

In one of my lives, I work for a 100,000+ employee global company that for a decade used Thinkpads for employees that needed a laptop. I have a string of them - T20, T21, T30, T40 and T42. Never a problem. Last year - in their infinite wisdom - they switched to Dell. I've yet to come across anyone that prefers a Dell over a Thinkpad. Nothing but problems with the very things that should be smooth - docking/undocking, switching from the LCD display to a projector etc. All running XP SP2, BTW.

Same for my wife - Thinkpad to Dell = grief.

The Easily Led, or the Sheeple: You summed these people up pretty well, these are the same knuckleheads in the Windows world that buy a new PC every time Microsoft puts out a new OS rather than upgrading the machine they have. They're the ones who have desktops with names like DELL slapped on the front of them and can't tell the MoBo from the Graphics Card, and no matter what they use you could sell them anything. These are the same people who buy Hummers to go camping, but wouldn't know what a sleeping bag was if one fell on them. In that Mac world I think they may be worse than the zealots because they don't know what the heck they're doing with a Mac and they're likely to cause problems for those of us that do. As obnoxious as the zealots are, and as ignorant as they act, they usually do know how to handle the Mac OS; the easily led are just here for the free ride.

Er - you've just described the very demographic that Apple target. You know, it just works.

When I see a dick driving a Hummer, I think Apple Brigade. When I see people driving VWs (I call them Hitlermobiles) with flowers in the dashboard (WTF), I think Apple Brigade. When I see Apple commercials, I think F*ck off, Apple. It's the company I have a fundamental issue with. Their hardly subtle placement commercials often have me changing the channel. There are few companies on this planet that I have abject disdain for - Apple is high up in the list.

[PuzZLeR]

Those Apple commercials are quite brilliant marketing-wise actually. I'm no Mac Fan Boy but have a deep appreciation for the Apple branding and niche marketing savvy. Those ads are very well focussed on three objectives:

1. Average Joe Consumer who doesn't have a clue about computers, but wants one, will be easily lured by them - Apple hits niche target.

2. Mac Fan Boys will experience a feeling of pride by them, whether they're true or not - Apple achieves retention and strengthening of market share.

3. Those that are computer savvy will perceive them as complete propaganda and sly innuendos and not bite - Apple spends no effort on an unattainable market yet causes enough noise to alienate key market segments to further strengthen on the previous two objectives.

Brilliant.

But if you ask me, I personally think 2. is the most important. OSX needs to hold on to what it has now while Mac slowly makes the transition to being a PC.

[Dv8ted2]

Those Apple commercials are quite brilliant marketing-wise actually. I'm no Mac Fan Boy but have a deep appreciation for the Apple branding and niche marketing savvy. Those ads are very well focussed on three objectives:

1. Average Joe Consumer who doesn't have a clue about computers, but wants one, will be easily lured by them - Apple hits niche target.

2. Mac Fan Boys will experience a feeling of pride by them, whether they're true or not - Apple achieves retention and strengthening of market share.

3. Those that are computer savvy will perceive them as complete propaganda and sly innuendos and not bite - Apple spends no effort on an unattainable market yet causes enough noise to alienate key market segments to further strengthen on the previous two objectives.

Brilliant.

But if you ask me, I personally think 2. is the most important. OSX needs to hold on to what it has now while Mac slowly makes the transition to being a PC.

Yes, but there is something wrong with the state of affairs, when your company is pulling the Street Fighter II scenario in the computer market, and they get applauded for it. It is time they at least moved on to OS 11, and quit with the OS10 stuff. Anyday, I expect to see OS10 Super Turbo Championship Edition.

While the unwashed masses may continue to drink the Steve Jobs Kool-aid, I am proud that I saved money, and are able to do more things with more software choices and more hardware. I also refuse to pay $70 for a modem, which is the Apple price at Fry's electronics.

[PuzZLeR]

Yes, but there is something wrong with the state of affairs, when your company is pulling the Street Fighter II scenario in the computer market, and they get applauded for it.

That's the point exactly. Creating a rift clearly creates enough separation to better tighten the hold on those that are on your side. And, like I pointed out, I think this is more of a retention measure more than anything since those commercials are designed to hold their existing base more than new sales at this point. They have little choice if they want to continue, and even grow.

While the unwashed masses may continue to drink the Steve Jobs Kool-aid, I am proud that I saved money, and are able to do more things with more software choices and more hardware. I also refuse to pay $70 for a modem, which is the Apple price at Fry's electronics.

Well it's very clear. You and I are not part of Apple's market. They know that we are on a different level, and they know they won't sell us, so any hatred or distaste they generate out of us only strengthens their hold on who they CAN sell.

But it's still working for Apple nevertheless for the long run in their mission to grow by slowly becoming a PC. The only reason I'm even considering an Apple is the option that it can also run Windows otherwise I'd be showering to wash off any Apple crud on my body they spit out at me.

[JohnnyMalaria]

Those Apple commercials are quite brilliant marketing-wise actually. I'm no Mac Fan Boy but have a deep appreciation for the Apple branding and niche marketing savvy. Those ads are very well focussed on three objectives

Yes - they pay an extremely talented agency to do their marketing. But their ads are f**king annoying and I wonder how many other people turn them off / change the channel - much to the network's loss.

1. Average Joe Consumer who doesn't have a clue about computers, but wants one, will be easily lured by them - Apple hits niche target.

I don't agree. Average Joe Consumer wants cheap-cheap-cheap-cheap-cheap. They want whatever BestBuy, Walmart etc can sell them and pile into the shopping cart to wheel to their car that also is cheap and contains useless cr@p.

2. Mac Fan Boys will experience a feeling of pride by them, whether they're true or not - Apple achieves retention and strengthening of market share.

Of the anal kind, naturally.

3. Those that are computer savvy will perceive them as complete propaganda and sly innuendos and not bite - Apple spends no effort on an unattainable market yet causes enough noise to alienate key market segments to further strengthen on the previous two objectives.

Brilliant.

Or self-indulgent arrogance - born, of course, of Jobs himself. i.e., marketing masturbation.

[aedipuss]

gotta agree with johnny on the ads: nasty, untrue and annoying. jobs at his best.

here's a couple of jobs' career highlights - he made a ton of illegal money selling long distance call stealing hardware devices so he dropped out of college and took a year off to wander india and drop acid till the cash ran out. jobs single handedly overruled the entire engineering department and made them remove a small cooling fan from the original mac, as the "noise" bothered him, so what happened? needless to say lots of early macs suffered heat related failures... jobs was fired from apple at that point and mac IIs came with a fan that was too big and really was noisy.

[SCDVD]

Here is another example of Jobs muscle man sleaze. His engineers were planning on offering a tape backup in an early Mac. Jobs overruled them because he didn't want to give users any notion that a hard drive would fail. He felt that the presence of a tape drive would awaken concerns that otherwise "his" users wouldn't think of. Sure has a high opinion of his loyal followers doesn't he!?

But that's typical of cult followers. Their beloved cult leader can do no wrong. Look at Charles Manson. He had a large following of people that would do anything he told them to do. You can tell Job's loyalists about his slimy career and it won't faze them. That is really sad isn't it.

[edDV]

Here is another example of Jobs muscle man sleaze. His engineers were planning on offering a tape backup in an early Mac. Jobs overruled them because he didn't want to give users any notion that a hard drive would fail. He felt that the presence of a tape drive would awaken concerns that otherwise "his" users wouldn't think of. Sure has a high opinion of his loyal followers doesn't he!?

But that's typical of cult followers. Their beloved cult leader can do no wrong. Look at Charles Manson. He had a large following of people that would do anything he told them to do. You can tell Job's loyalists about his slimy career and it won't faze them. That is really sad isn't it.

More likely, Jobs didn't want to support those backups in future MacOS versions. Mac OS history shows no loyalty priority to earlier versions.

[ffooky]

Look, you can say what you like about Hitler but those Beetles sure were cute cars.

[edDV]

Look, you can say what you like about Hitler but those Beetles sure were cute cars.

Designed by Ferdinand Porsche no less.
http://people.westminstercollege.edu/staff/bknorr/html/history.htm
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ferdinand_Anton_Ernst_Porsche

[Video Head]

Those Apple commercials are quite brilliant marketing-wise actually.

I found them to be somewhat entertaining when they first came out...but the new yoga one is just a bunch of hatefull bashing...I wonder if they will now stoop to having cell phones ringing and people screaming their guts out to get some attention. A TV ad would never influence any of my purchasing decisions be it a car, computer, clothes or beer.