Why don't people use Macs?

[ffooky]

The deaths of 100,000 people compared to the relative positions of two operating systems, tasteful stuff.

Still, at least they weren't Americans, eh.

[yoda313]

woah back off on the politicks everybody ok???

I do agree with both sides - even though I detest macs personally I can see the appeal. If you have no idea how to edit config files you prbably don't want a pc (though to be honest I don't think I've done tthat since the 9x kernel).

Basically like everyone has said - mac for ease of use - pc for everything else

Oh and by the way I totally loathe those mac vs pc ads. Totally stupid and irritaing........

[Midzuki]

It looks like someone has just become too old for the way :P :P :P

[yoda313]

It looks like someone has just become too old for the way :P :P :P

What???

Is that aimed at me? What do you want me to do? I can lash out at mac users if you want me too I just thought I'd be diplomatic first

[Midzuki]

What's your nickname? "Master Yoda" or "old and in the way"?

[PuzZLeR]

Well currently, with my 4 desktops and 2 laptops, I have 6 PCs in total in just my house. I've been thinking of getting a Mac into the mix for a little while now. The extra dimension would be nice but I was so terrified, honestly, of becoming a Mac fan boy. Seriously. It's a whole different lifestyle.

The fact that Macs can be OSX/Windows machines fluidly now puts more ease into my buying decision for a Mac finally.

Look Mac Nation... it's working! Your leader is winning ME over too! :P

[lordsmurf]

different lifestyle.
The fact that Macs can be OSX/Windows machines fluidly now puts more ease into my buying decision for a Mac finally.
Look Mac Nation... it's working! Your leader is winning ME over too! :P

Use Parallels, not BootCamp.

[PuzZLeR]

Use Parallels, not BootCamp.

Well, I didn't know about that option. I just researched it and it looks neat, and it's not expensive either.

Looks like I may be buying that Mac as my next PC, ...err..COMPUTER...now finally. Thanks for the tip!

[Video Head]

I noticed that a new bundle is being marketed as a Mac vs. PC solution kit. No need to source or purchase seperates as it is now being sold as a complete solution in a box. The manufacturer does not recommend that end users exceed the specified 10 paces...

[guns1inger]

It's called the iDual.

The Mac pistol comes pre-loaded and cocked because Mac users don't actually understand how anything works, they just trust that it will.

The Windows pistol allows for upgrading to a faster, larger shot and the use of better gun powder for those who require that bit of extra grunt. It also has connectors for pointless pieces of blue LED lighting down the barrel.

[Video Head]

An ex - Green Beret squirrel did invent and patent a far superior version but refuses to develop it beyond Solaris and UX implementations. When asked if he would be marketing a Mac or PC version his answer was: "nuts in a tree".

[verbal0007]

...And lets retire the "no one hacks Macs because there aren't enough of them to bother" comeback, huh? Its gibberish [...] It doesn't matter a damn WHY there are so much less viruses and hacks on Macs, what matters is they're much less vulnerable or targeted, making them a good choice for those who can't be depended on to manage their antivirus software.

Arguing that Macs are safer only "because nobody uses them" is a backhanded way of changing the subject...

...Back to work.

You're not really addressing that point. It DOES matter WHY there are less hacks on Macs taking place. Mac supporters use it as ammunition (against PC), as well as a straight marketing tool...

But that's misleading...Ask your average computer user if his Mac is safer in a face-off environment and he'd say "yes" without hesitation. The point is it influences people's buying decision because they are led to believe the Mac is safer by design, which is essentially consumer fraud.

They have no idea that if the inclination was there, their precious Mac could be compromised just as easily.

Just like the pwn2own article and another poster earlier said, "Simply put, security by obscurity isn’t an option for Apple anymore."


btw, doesn't it seem a little hypocritical to be saying "give it a rest", "just relax", "let's let that one die", "Back to work" throughout posts that take up a 4th of the page allotment?

It's called the iDual.

The Mac pistol comes pre-loaded and cocked because Mac users don't actually understand how anything works, they just trust that it will.

The Windows pistol allows for upgrading to a faster, larger shot and the use of better gun powder for those who require that bit of extra grunt. It also has connectors for pointless pieces of blue LED lighting down the barrel.

[guns1inger]

An ex - Green Beret squirrel did invent and patent a far superior version but refuses to develop it beyond Solaris and UX implementations. When asked if he would be marketing a Mac or PC version his answer was: "nuts in a tree".

So far, only 0.63 % of desktop market have seen enough value to adopt a suitable OS to run it. But that's OK, because we all make allowances for our 'special friends' who use Linux.

[Video Head]

An ex - Green Beret squirrel did invent and patent a far superior version but refuses to develop it beyond Solaris and UX implementations. When asked if he would be marketing a Mac or PC version his answer was: "nuts in a tree".

So far, only 0.63 % of desktop market have seen enough value to adopt a suitable OS to run it. But that's OK, because we all make allowances for our 'special friends' who use Linux.

You meant to say "UNIX", right?

SUN Sparc/Solaris stations...you know what those are, don't you?

[guns1inger]

I remember seeing one in a museum once - do people still use them ?

Seriously, I know of many sites who were once serious users of HP/UX on HP kit as well as big Solaris users who have since moved off the platform to lower costs Windows 2003 server / SQL server based environments. They are still stable and get much better bang for buck.

Of course, if you want to narrow it down to just Sparc/Solaris stations I am happy to oblige. I'll just revise the percentage down to a more realistic level - 0.002 % ?

[yoda313]

Is that free BEOS still around? Or isn't there freepc os or something?

There are plenty of different pc compatible os's out there these days. I did use ubuntu once on a live disc just to see it. I thought it was much more evolved than I had expected. I thought linux os's were all command based where you had to configure everything and nothing was preset. I was suprised how "windows" like it was in function.

If I was given or bought a cheapo computer and wanted any os just to use it that would be a viable alternative.

[ffooky]

There are plenty of different pc compatible os's out there these days. I did use ubuntu once on a live disc just to see it.... I was suprised how "windows" like it was in function.

Funny, I use Ubuntu a lot and it feels very OS X-like to me. Eye of the beholder stuff....

[yoda313]

@ Ffooky - you need to realize the last time I used it was from a 2006 download I believe. I'm sure a lot has changed. Also I have never used OSX so I don't have that as a reference point.

[ffooky]

Well, if you thought that was viable, you'll be very impressed by the most recent (7.10) and 8.4 is out next week. Well worth a spin.

[orsetto]

It DOES matter WHY there are less hacks on Macs taking place. Mac supporters use it as ammunition (against PC), as well as a straight marketing tool...

But that's misleading...Ask your average computer user if his Mac is safer in a face-off environment and he'd say "yes" without hesitation. The point is it influences people's buying decision because they are led to believe the Mac is safer by design, which is essentially consumer fraud.

They have no idea that if the inclination was there, their precious Mac could be compromised just as easily.

Just like the pwn2own article and another poster earlier said, "Simply put, security by obscurity isn’t an option for Apple anymore."

Okay, I should maybe have clarified my opinions were based on actual use helping to manage over 100 deployed business Mac users as well as a dozen friends/family members. I actually find Apple's "mystification" marketing a royal pain and can't stand "Mac conventional wisdom", my comments are never based on that crap: I've been using the damn things too long to buy into the "happy happy joy joy" nonsense. Macs are far from perfect.

Yes, I totally agree, if someone WANTS to hack into a Mac, they can certainly do it. My point is not that Macs are invulnerable to attack, but that in current day-to-day actual use nothing is happening. In three years I have not had to deal with a virus issue or trojan or adware for any of the dozen friends/family, and I think we've fielded perhaps two or three attempted hacks into the company network, which were unsuccessful anyway- they were just flagged as attempts. There are certain topics where people just have to agree to disagree: in my experience, and that of many others, we have little to no aggravation due to viruses on our Macs. To keep harping that we live in a "fool's paradise" is a little insulting, when the plain fact is we are just not having a problem. Of course if we did not set up supplementary security precautions we WOULD be total fools: you can't just rely on the out-of-box OSX configuration. But for the computer illiterate who can't be trusted to follow protocols and keep their antivirus up to date, a Mac is that much easier for their "geek friend" to lock down and protect. For now- not forever, just for now. If I talked co-dependent friends/relatives into buying a Mac in 2006, and they haven't called me even once since then with a virus-adware-trojan issue, that means I got nearly two years peace not having to deal with them. If every hacker in the world creates the mother of all viruses tomorrow that cracks every locked-down Mac in existence, I *still* had the two years without incident, so I still benefit. Same diff if I am confident I totally locked down my Vista or XP stations: if I fend off attacks for a year by following normal security procedures, and then some creep manages to blow them up, well I've still had my good year, haven't I? There's ALWAYS going to be a malicious ass out there somewhere, plotting some new mischief: that fact doesn't invalidate a history of good subjective security statistics up until that day.

It's called the iDual.

The Mac pistol comes pre-loaded and cocked because Mac users don't actually understand how anything works, they just trust that it will.

The Windows pistol allows for upgrading to a faster, larger shot and the use of better gun powder for those who require that bit of extra grunt. It also has connectors for pointless pieces of blue LED lighting down the barrel.

That has to be the most concise and accurate post in the thread so far... spot on!

[verbal0007]

Okay, I should maybe have clarified my opinions were based on actual use...

Yes, I totally agree, if someone WANTS to hack into a Mac, they can certainly do it. My point is not that Macs are invulnerable to attack, but that in current day-to-day actual use nothing is happening.

...There's ALWAYS going to be a malicious ass out there somewhere, plotting some new mischief: that fact doesn't invalidate a history of good subjective security statistics up until that day.

Um..no, that wasn't your point. THAT was the point of everyone who says that Macs don't get hacked because there's no real payoff in it and no one cares to bother.

YOUR initial point was essentially a dispute of that:

"And lets retire the 'no one hacks Macs because there aren't enough of them to bother' comeback, huh? Its gibberish. [...] Arguing that Macs are safer only 'because nobody uses them' is a backhanded way of changing the subject."

Which didn't even make much sense then, because in between those statements you went on to say how true the statement was, just as you confirmed it here.

You basically have argued "Let's give that one a rest...it's nonsense...Well, it's completely true--but that's not important. You guys are just trying to change the subject."

It's YOU who was trying to change the subject.

The fact is, it is a valid point that Macs are essentially "safer" only because there isn't as much interest in them.

What you're doing is similar to someone saying: "My car gets much better gas mileage than those cars," and then claiming the fact that his car is only driven on the highway while the others only drive in the city, hauling trailers and are left to idle for hours at a time doesn't matter.

You can say "So what? They're still safer (period)" as your defense to the point, but don't try to claim the point isn't valid and that the REASON they're safer isn't important.

[orsetto]

verbal0007, you remind me of a friend of mine who sifts the syntax of every comment ever made to him just so he can find a contradiction or philosophical miscue and rip the other persons head off disdainfully. He's incredibly intelligent but a total PITA to deal with because every discussion with him descends into this kind of "pick apart your morals, grammar, whatever" bullsh*t and he never comprehends the ACTUAL POINT anyone was trying to express to him. You criticize my semantics with your car analogy, which can just as easily be used to make my point as to break it: if I experience 40 mpg in my Volkswagen for my particular driving patterns, that 40 mpg experience is NOT invalidated simply by you sneering "yes, but since you get your 40 mpg because you only drive on the highway and because your car uses diesel, your experience is meaningless and you should not talk about it because only 5% of passenger cars are diesel and most people drive in the clogged city streets so if diesel fuel becomes unavailable or you move to the city you'll be screwed". If I live in a rural area and never encounter city streets, and I don't mind not having a diesel pump on every corner, and I like the Volkswagen design and the fact that it saves me money, and I never need to transport furniture or a large family, you are not going to talk me into a gasoline-fueled Ford Explorer. In the same way, if you live in the city and need to move lots of people and large objects, and gas is more convenient for you, and the lower MPG is a worthwhile tradeoff for the increased carrying capacity you use every day, I will never talk you into my Volkswagen. We have different needs served by different automobiles. Why the hell the world can agree on this concept and apply it to everything BUT computer platforms is beyond me.

Arguing that Windows is more "useful" and sneering at Macs mainly because the stupid TV ads annoy you and because the mere continued existence of a minority alternative platform infuriates you on a primal level is just as obnoxious as the Mac-o-phool who insists the world would be all sunshine and rainforests if only Windows disappeared overnight: they'd be in for a shock when they found their email disappeared right along with the hated MS Exchange Servers. You can't just make the argument "Nobody uses Macs-hackers don't bother with Macs because its a minority platform- the fact that hackers don't bother with Macs means its OK to utterly dismiss them as not having any useful purpose whatsoever and anyone who uses one is a religious nut- the fact that Macs are safer partly because hackers don't target them is immaterial and the tens of thousands of Mac users who have not encountered a virus in four years BECAUSE hackers don't target them are idiots who should have switched four years ago to Windows and installed new Firewall and Virus profiles every week for four years and endured the half dozen attacks that got thru those defenses anyway- friggin Mac users and their delusions of safety".

You cannot damn Mac "security-by-obscurity" without accepting Windows "insecurity-by-ubiquity"in return: its a coin toss. Despite the fact that a little effort could make their machines substantially more secure, MILLIONS of Windows users still let the "trial virus protection software" that came with their PC expire and fly by the seat of their pants for months or years, cleaning up after every virus or trojan and wondering why they ever bought a computer. Sneering that a Mac user is a jackass because he makes the simple statement he has not once in four years encountered a virus or Trojan is NOT going to make him cower and immediately discount his own experience. Instead, he will assume the "sneer-er" either has an agenda or emotional issues or both.

There are things that Windows boxes can do better and/or easier than Macs, the more "open" hardware and sheer market size allows more flexibility in some areas. This is a plain fact understood by most everyone. Give even the most overzealous Machead a Valium, and within ten minutes even he will always cop to this. What annoys the crap out of otherwise quiet and sober Mac users is the constant condescension emanating from the "Windows-only" camp and its utter refusal to acknowledge a person might choose or specify a Mac *because of* certain limitations: what some see as restrictions, others see as opportunity. The sealed-box proprietary low-end designs allow Apple to maintain a certain level of uniformity not possible on Windows, the limitations on hardware changes mean an unsophisticated user won't be tempted to screw with what works, and the person in charge of "helping" them will make better use of their time. The minority status of the platform combined with its Unix underpinnings make it less appealing to hackers to target, which for all intents and purposes makes it more secure in actual use for the person who doesn't want to be terrified every time they open a web browser or an email. Could they be attacked tomorrow by a new Mac virus that sneaks past Unix security and ant-virus software? Of course.

Then again, I live in New York City: every time I get on the subway I calculate my odds of a bioterrorist attack on my way to work. Could it happen, is it likely to happen? Of course! But it doesn't stop me from using the subway, working downtown or living near Kennedy Airport. I take what precautions I can, rely on the Feds and police to do what they can, and get on with my life. If you in turn tell me you live in Oshkosh, and the likelihood of an attack on your hometown is much smaller than one occurring in New York, I would never accuse you of being deluded: I would acknowledge your statement was based on your experience, and assume you understood even a small attack probability still needs to be considered and defended against. This is what Mac users do, this is what Windows users do, this is what Linux users do- every time they log in. I'm happy to learn about experiences from any platform: whatever tools you get the most out of, I want to know about it and see if your knowledge can be applied by me with my tools, if not maybe I should try yours. Or, by sharing experience we confirm for each other we chose the correct tools for ourselves. Sneering at each other doesn't accomplish any of those goals.

[JohnnyMalaria]

Why the hell the world can agree on this concept and apply it to everything BUT computer platforms is beyond me.

You must live in a different world then for human history is littered with the tragic consequences of that very inability to agree on ideologies that are essentially worthless.

[verbal0007]

verbal0007, you remind me of a friend of...

jeez. I had to skim that...Not because of the length, but because it was essentially ranting. The whole thing just sidesteps the one point I made, and everything past the first "paragraph" doesn't even apply to me.

You must have a lot of time on your hands.

[SCDVD]

I find a thread like this fascinating. It gives a rare opportunity to get a glimpse into a Mac brain. They truly must be tortured souls. Their endless blather in their looonnnggg pathetic posts stirs pity for the miserable state they are in. I wouldn't believe there are those that are so troubled if I hadn't seen it for myself. Sad, truly sad.

[Video Head]

I find a thread like this fascinating. It gives a rare opportunity to get a glimpse into a Mac brain. They truly must be tortured souls. Their endless blather in their looonnnggg pathetic posts stirs pity for the miserable state they are in. I wouldn't believe there are those that are so troubled if I hadn't seen it for myself. Sad, truly sad.

But they do get to live the "Mac Lifestyle"...that must be worth something. At least I would hope so, because they sure do have to pay for it.

[zoobie]

just be glad you're not Don Gorske

[ffooky]

But they do get to live the "Mac Lifestyle"...that must be worth something. At least I would hope so, because they sure do have to pay for it.

I'm sitting in my kitchen with my Macbook Pro watching the mice crawling over the cooker. "Mac Lifestyle" ?...I want my bloody money back.

[LOWTECH]

I have had a mac for many years.........

It is very usefull when I put it on to go out....... when it is raining....

[JohnnyMalaria]

That's funny