What shall we name the pending military action against Iraq?

[oldfart]

how about

SOMALIA REVISITED

coz the yanks are bound to get their
arses kicked "again"

[d4n13l]

biffos, you seem to have the political understanding of a 16 year old school boy.

[bilbogod]

I swear this is some kind of a conspiracy!! I've got one epic post I've been trying to get into this thread for the last 36 hours without any success. If anyone manages to read these four lines of text then I am gonna copy and paste one line at a time into this topic

Ok it worked!!! Here goes then:-

Ok, I've just published a magazine article called Popcorn Propaganda: Blackhawk Down. Having seen the movie, it would be easy to leave with the impression that America and the UN were carrying out a just and righteous cause. UTTER BULLSHIT!!!!
I wonder how many people are aware of the real truth behind this piece of glossy propaganda ???? For those who haven't seen the film, it basicly recounts the supposedly true events of the U.S. forces attempting the removal of a Warlord in Mogadishu. For all intents and purposes the viewer believes that this is to prevent widespread famine/starvation and civil war.By the end of the film we see American troops retreating having

[oldfart]

well dn4n13l

perhaps there is something i did not mention

i served in the gulf war with the british army

and the american forces (our so called allies)

managed to kill more british soldiers than the iraqis

could have hoped to have killed. and i know that they got their

arses kicked in somalia, beiruit, vietnam, panama, just to mention a few


I also fully understand the political situation (moron) and know that you

cannot fight terrorists in the normal military sense

whoever started this stupid topic wants his balls chewing off

what has this got to do with vcd's ?????

perhaps you should all grow up

[d4n13l]

oldfart,
PERHAPS YOU SHOULD INVEST IN A PAIR OF GLASSES. WHAT I SAID WAS NOT DIRECTED AT YOU, BUT DIRECTED TO A PERSON WITH THE USERNAME "BIFFOS". IF I WERE ADDRESSING YOU THEN I WOULD HAVE BEGAN MY POST WITH "OLDFART", LIKE I DID IN THIS POST. JUST BECAUSE MY POST WAS IMMEDIATLY AFTER YOURS, DOES NOT MEAN THAT IT WAS INTENDED FOR YOU.
Is that easy enough to understand?
Check a few posts back, when some idiot by the name of biffos says that to beat terrorism we should:

turn the middle east into a dust bowl.take all the oil and turn the fuckin Arabs into dog meat, these Bastards haven't paid enough!!!!"

This is what I was responding to, as I made clear by including his username and then addressing him. Much the same way as I started this post, to you.

[bilbogod]

This is continued form earlier !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
faced a gruelling standoff despite their patriotic attemps. Not once in the film do we get to see the side of the story from the Somali angle, or indeed the real reason for American interests in their country. Was this film fact or fiction ??? FICTION.....
THE TRUTH......
American and UN forces were exploiting the oil reserve potential of Somalia. Following the removal of one warlord (who was noteably a western sympathiser) with anotherv who had no time for the west, the Americans step in with UN backing. The cover story to the world was "Humanitarian Action". An extremely misguided attempt at removing the Warlord, results in the bombing of a peace keeping conference (significantly omitted from the film) in which approx 60 innocent citizens were killed. Hatred for the Americans interference was so great, that the rival/warring Somali clans teamed up with each other in oppostion to the Americans

[bilbogod]

Many Americans are only rescued because of the bravery of the Malaysian army (again omitted in the film). If you look at the music in the film we have angelic Enya inspired vocals accompanying the American armys efforts and angry Arabian techno music for the Somalis. None of the actors used were native people in the film.....
Following September 11th, Donald Rumsfeld takes a private viewing of Black Hawk Down/Enemy Behind The Lines in order to make any necessary changes to the films that they see fit... The films that were originally scheduled for Spring 2002 ( a traditional dumping ground for the box office) are brought forward accordingly.

[bilbogod]

It is no coincidence that BlackHawk Down is being screened everywhere in a controlled manner. Somalia has convieniently been placed near the top of a list of countries that the Bush administration are considering further attacks on. This war if it materialises will be led not by the generals in their bunkers, but by people who construct the story the nation chooses to believe
In short I feel bad for any comments that may help to incite further conflicts. We all have a part to play in living in a safe world. I'm always up for a joke and a laugh, but I couldn't sleep if I felt it was harming someone......

[zzyzzx]

How about Desert Storm II. I'm suprized nobody suggested that one yet. Howard Stern says that we should take over the place and suck all the oil out of it and I agree.

[oldfart]

d4n13l

tut tut is there any need to shout

i didn't shout at you if i made a mistake i

apologize without reservation , but really

shouting makes you appear a petulant insignificant person

and there is probably no room on this board for little people

who throw their teddy bears in the corner

as somebody quotes on this site

growing old is compulsory, growing up is optional

make your choice

cya and chill dude :P :wink: :lol: :D

[d4n13l]

I wasnt shouting, I was implying that you need glasses. If I were shouting then it would have had more exclamation marks.
So, I think that you got me wrong again...
Perhaps another apology, without the derogatory comments, will look a little better.
LOL

[bilbogod]

he he he ..... you see guys war is so easy to start and so difficult to end. So all of you shut the hell up before I start kiiling someone. Or as Sean Madison so eloquently put it "Don't **** With Me !"

[d4n13l]

LOL, that is what I was thinking. Anyways, _you_ shut the hell up - Dude, you shouldnt be typing away on your computer, its saturday night! The Plymouth night is young and all the girls will be out. You are a student, so go do your duty: Get wrecked on cheap vodka, go out, pull a moose (or two), steal some traffic bollards, get in a fight and be sick in your mates shoes - All at the expense of the tax payer, hehe. I know I will be later, Newquay should be pretty busy tonight and its school girls night at Berties, woohoo! LOL

[sabot]

How about Operation Liberate the Oppressed!
It is the motto of the Special Forces.
I think we should have taken a battalion of M1A1's(Hell on Wheels) into downtown Bagdad last time. Maybe send some sabot rounds into a few of his homes or just clean up with the 50cal but there was a method to the madness.
I just hope this time we level the place so the people can have a clean slate to rebuild.
Evil must be eliminated not contained!

[sabot]

oldfart,

Just to make a point.
Name one conflict in all of history where their were NO casualties from frendly fire,sword,spear,canon,ect.
You can not name one.
I empathize with all that lost friends to friendly fire.
The world is not perfect I have even lost friends in peace time just in the motor pool.
I have also had friends mamed in peace time.
The tools of war are made to kill and they do not care who it is.
The human behind the tool is just that, Human and if we as Humans were perfect then war would not be necessary.
I do believe that WAR is a necessary tool to provide peace when other means do not work.
I pray for the friends you have lost by the hands of those I served with and hope you realize that even though they died by the hand of a friendly the didn't die with any less honor.

SABOT
ex-tanker
ex us army 1st Armor 2battalion 67armor reg

[bbb]

bbb,
Please take these remarks in the spirit they were intended…the free exchange of ideas.

1. What did the Operation Dessert Storm effectively do to Saddam?

It removed his forces from Kuwait, and limited his ability to wage war.
This was the goal, though it appears it is now time to remove him from power

2. War and Coercive diplomacy are outdated concepts.

War is why the Afghan people now have the prospect of freedom for the first time in decades.
Coercive diplomacy is why Pakistan is our ally, not our enemy.

As for using capitalism to lessen adherence to their religious doctrines; capitalism will fund their endeavors - it does now!

Throughout history, war has been waged for 3 major reasons:
1. Aggression for the acquisition of land or other property (slavery included).
2. Aggression for political or other ideological reasons.
3. The halting of aggression (including preemptive).

Reasonable people, no matter what ideology, are just that…reasonable.
Those who are not, cannot be coerced diplomatically, or economically.
These governments don’t want the people to prosper, as they would loose control over them. Poverty breeds dependence, and religion (in this case) is used as the controlling force.

We have but two choices:
1. Allow aggression from the “UNREASONABLE”.
2. Halt aggression.

It is not the current role of the U.S. government to help the Middle East in becoming “mentally in line with modern societies”.
The role of the U.S. government is to “provide for the common defense”.

"though it appears it is now time to remove him from power"

Removing Saddam had been a goal for some time since the start of Dessert Storm. The unspoken objective ("unspoken" because an outward military policy of assasinating a leader of another country is frowned upon by other nations) of bombing of Bagdad was to take out "Saddam's bunker." This did not work after repeated attempts. After which, the U.S. took the stand of "eliminating Saddam and his grip on power isn't necessary, we can just take out his weapons of mass destruction." The U.S. military tried to play this off as a compromise-victory when in fact it was a failure to finish the job/goal. (The same is now happening with Bin Ladin, before it was "rest assured, we will get him" now it is a "we don't necessarily have to get him anymore.")

"War is why the Afghan people now have the prospect of freedom for the first time in decades."

Prospect? Do you think the Afghans will be feeling the prospect of freedom anytime soon? What is the guarantee that the Afghan people will achieve freedom? There have been several instances where the U.S. has replaced the unacceptable regime with a U.S. choosen leader only to have the U.S. choice run out of office and the country retaken over by a dictator or military rule (e.g., as in various Middle/South American countries). The only way to prevent this is to impose a strong U.S. military presence which will be costly, incur more U.S. troop casualties from suicide bombers because of resentment of the U.S. presence in another country. Eventually, domestic and international cries of U.S. intrusivism will force the U.S. military out thereby creating a power-order vacuum, allowing the aggressors to retake power.

"Coercive diplomacy is why Pakistan is our ally, not our enemy."

Pakistan was not harboring Osamu. Pakistan did not take a stand against the U.S. They did not sacrifice much if anything by complying to the U.S. requests. If Pakistan was stubbornly harboring Osamu, Coercive Diplomacy probably would not have worked. Obviously and MORE IMPORTANTLY, Coercive Diplomacy (even with encouragement from Pakistan) did not work against Afghanistan and did not work against Iraq.

"As for using capitalism to lessen adherence to their religious doctrines; capitalism will fund their endeavors - it does now!"

Various governments muslim countries (e.g., Iraq, Afghanistan) acquire wealth not with capitalism (which depends on a private capital and profit making system) but with dictatorial/militaristic controlled economic system. The leaders acquire wealth because they take from the poor to fund their economy and trade endeavors. By intergrating these countries into the global economy, more industry and private businesses will flourish in these countries, providing more jobs and higher salary levels to the people. As the people's per capita income increases, so is their potential for higher education and hence ability to see the problems in their society and try to fix them (e.g., the highly unequal status of women). Moreover, it is with this ability to get an education, a prerequisite for creating capable, modern wordly leaders to confront and win the population over from the ancient, religious hardline regime dictators.

"Poverty breeds dependence, and religion (in this case) is used as the controlling force."

Exactly. War in these countries does nothing for the people. It only destroys their homes, their breadwinners, and cripples their ability to make any living. Such hopelessness easily permits another group of aggressors, claiming religious right, to take advantage of the impoverished, ravaged population by focusing their frustration and hatred towards the U.S. while the aggressors acquire power and control over their country.

"We have but two choices:
1. Allow aggression from the “UNREASONABLE”.
2. Halt aggression.

It is not the current role of the U.S. government to help the Middle East in becoming “mentally in line with modern societies”.
The role of the U.S. government is to “provide for the common defense”."

Such short sighted goals will only forestall another inevitable conflict as repeatedly stated in my explanations above. (Moreover, such obsolete international policy tactics benefits no one except the U.S. military so they can test their weapons against extrodinarily poorly equipped nations, declare a victory and request a need for more funding to build more planes and bombs.)

This is why the U.S. should circumvent this age old repetitious cycle of unnecessary pain and violence towards the people (The Endless Cycle: U.S. War "Victory" --> U.S. Military Presence --> Local/Internation Resentment and Tension --> U.S. Military Abandonment --> Power/Order Vacuum --> Aggressors/Dictators Retake Power --> War Against U.S.).

Last Note:
The originator of this discussion, zzyzzx, has grasped the insidious manner in which the military and the press tends to cooperate in brainwashing the public to give unilateral support for military campaigns with uncertain purposes and results by using catchy Operation "We Are Righteous Getting Rid of the Great Evil" titles. Zzyzzx chooses to poke fun at this insidious collaboration by asking us to come up with our own catchy titles. However, it appears that many have missed the point and have already been brainwashed by the media into expressing their so called patriotism and American way by advocating the creation of more chaos in the world and instigating greater world animosity against the U.S.. All I can do is *sigh* and wonder when will the people finally progress from their irrational ways of thought? After all, if something doesn't work, isn't it logical to try something else?

[bilbogod]

Just wait till Hollywood makes this one:-

[bilbogod]

"The last known sighting of Bin Laden was when he underwent genetic surgery"

[zzyzzx]

How about Operation Bomb the Towelheads?

[Global]

Operation "BOY GEORGE" Do you really want to hurt me