Double-Sided, Dual-Layer DVD media?

[dgpretzel]

I'd like to be able to archive a complete MiniDV tape to a single DVD.

Does double-sided, dual-layer DVD media exist?

I didn't see any at Amazon.com

Thank you.

DG

[Zen of Encoding]

I'd like to be able to archive a complete MiniDV tape to a single DVD.

Does double-sided, dual-layer DVD media exist?

I didn't see any at Amazon.com

Thank you.

DG

Your goal is to store 13Gig (1 hour of raw 1394 transferred .avi video files) on a single disc?
Small portable 2.5" hard drives are getting cheap, I've seen them at around 60 cents per Gig.
How about a 16Gig compact flash card? They're expensive, but you can use them over & over.

http://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.aspx?Item=N82E16820211170
http://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.aspx?Item=N82E16820208337

Storing as MPEG2 is unacceptable?

[guns1inger]

You would still have to cut the file into four pieces, and the price would be far higher than the cost of four single layer discs. Given Verbatim make the only trust-worthy dual layer discs as it stands, if they don't create dual layer, dual sided discs, then I wouldn't trust them anyway.

Portable HDDs are cheaper, faster and more reliable.

[jman98]

According to Verbatim's US site, they do not make dual sided DL discs. At least not for sale in the USA. A quick web search for such discs did not find any, but I suppose the original poster could spend his time trying that. Verbatim does make dual sided single layer DVD discs, but they are crazy expensive - a 40 pack will cost you at least $230 US.

[Krispy Kritter]

The cheapest archive method at the moment is HDD. And assuming it's important enough that you want it archived, you should have 2 copies for safety (ie: 2 separate HDD's).

[noki]

"...Does double-sided, dual-layer DVD media exist? ...
yes, D-18 blanks are available... to the commercial industry (pressed DVDs).

[orsetto]

Even if such blanks were available, it would be foolhardy to use them for anything but temporary storage. As it stands now, even commercially-pressed dual sided/dual layer DVD-18 releases tend to be plagued with bugs and glitches that make them unplayable on most hardware. Google the reviews for any TV series set that was pressed in this format and you'll see endless complaints (i.e., the atrocious "American Gothic" set from Universal). Remember it took several years before DVD players reached the current point where most of them can play standard single-side dual-layer DVD-9 discs reliably. Asking them to play cemented-together dual-sided dual-layer is asking too much- the slightest amount of off-spec issues will make them unplayable because the laser just cannot lock reliably on the tracks. Faint scratches or marks or slight separations that have no effect on a standard DVD-5 or DVD-9 usually render a commercial DVD-18 completely useless, so I can only imagine how fragile a sloppily-manufactured DVD-18 recordable disc would be.

[dgpretzel]

Thank you all for your helpful comments.

Flash media certainly is possible, but, since I really want only a single use (archiving), I am reluctant to spend the $.

Maybe multiple single layer media is the way to go.

OK, here's a follow up question: Are two single-sided, single-layer DVD+R discs more reliable than one single-sided, dual-layer disc?

Thank you.

Regards,

DG

[jdachik]

Blu-Ray would be another alternative - probably more reliable than DL media, and you could fit close to two DV tapes on one disc.

About 50 cents per GB.

[VegasBud]

Are two single-sided, single-layer DVD+R discs more reliable than one single-sided, dual-layer disc?

That's an interesting question. It something I've never thought about, but it would appear (if both disks are of equal quality) that single layer disks would be more reliable, for the following reasons:

Since about 10% more data can be fit on a single layer disk than on one layer of a dual layer disk, the same data point will be closer to the error-prone outer edge on the dual layer. As a result, the single layer would be more reliable.

In order to implement dual layer, the reflectivity for each layer is much less. Since reflectivity is a prime determining factor in how well the disk can be read, single layer would be more reliable.

There may well be other factors that would come into play, but that's all that comes to mind at the moment.

[dgpretzel]

OK, then I guess it may be better to use multiple single-sided, single-layer media.

Do I still want DVD+R (as opposed to DVD-R), and is Verbatim still the "gold standard" for single layer discs?

Thank you.

DG

[jman98]

OK, then I guess it may be better to use multiple single-sided, single-layer media.

Do I still want DVD+R (as opposed to DVD-R), and is Verbatim still the "gold standard" for single layer discs?

Thank you.

DG

DVD-R is barely more compatible with DVD players than DVD+R, but if you can set your burner to "bit set" DVD+R, it's pretty much a tie. Newer DVD players really don't care, but on older players the DVD-R discs might be a tiny bit better. If you don't know what bit setting means, just buy DVD-R discs. They don't need to be bit set and in fact can't be.

Verbatim is quite good. I'm really fond of their DataLife Plus series, but you'll have to mail order those. Common Verbatim single layer discs can be bought in stores in the USA, probably in the UK too. Taiyo Yuden is also excellent, but you have to mail order them. Taiyo Yuden sometimes makes DVDs for various European companies, including Verbatim, but to be sure you're getting TY made discs, it's best to mail order discs sold under the TY name. The quality is always high on Verbatim discs, regardless of whether they make them themselves or let TY do it. Finally, note that DVD-R discs are usually slightly cheaper than DVD+R. Not sure why, but they are.

[dgpretzel]

Thank you.

It sounds to me as if the best combination of reliability and convenience is Verbatim.

I probably should have mentioned early on that I have zero interest or desire in playing any of my archive material in any DVD player, ever, if that makes a difference. My interest is 100% for archiving the data as files for computer use. (Of course that means reading them in a DVD drive.) I will create MPEG2 DVDs of edited material for actual playing and/or distribution to family and friends.

Regards,

DG

[Krispy Kritter]

Just a thought, but if you go the DVD route, you either have to manually divide your files into chunks that will fit on a single disc or you have to create an archive. If using an archive, you loose the entire set of discs if any single disc fails. Also, you will end up having countless discs to store.

I personally still recommend using a HDD. It is much less work, quicker, and uses much less storage space. Either way, for important information, two copies is recommended.

[jman98]

I have read about some people who archive to DVD that before they burn their discs, they create PAR files to be used for recovery in case parts of the discs go bad. The PAR files are burned to a different DVD. In case there is interest in this, here's an explanation of how it works:
http://www.slyck.com/ng.php?page=6
A little technical, but it does explain fairly well.

[stantheman1976]

Why not a portable hard drive? You can get a 120-160GB small drive powered by USB for $100 or less. I keep a 120GB Maxtor and 160GB Western Digital for storing DV files when I'm editing on my laptop.

[dgpretzel]

Thank you, all.



jman98,

I would be happy to use parity (or even ECC).



stantheman1976,

Well, 10 minidv tapes would be about 130GB, and fit on a USB drive that you suggest. That's $10 per archived tape.

Single Layer DVD+R media run, maybe $.25 - $50 each, and it would take 3 to archive a minidv tape. That's $.75 - $1.50.

The USB drive is about 10X the cost, so I'll use the DVD+R blanks.

Thank you.

[CogoSWSDS]

Actually that's what I've been doing with my D8 tapes. I transfer w/ WinDV (if there's a break of an hour or more on the time stamps in the DV, I start a new file). Then I dump on Verbatim DVDR. This way if my D8 camcorder takes a dump I still have access to the original DV footage.

If I have a file that's too big for a DVDR, I run it thru VirtualDub with Direct Stream Copy (so no encoding and I get original data), saved as a segmented AVI (so I get filenames like dv.07-04-07_11-20.00.avi and dv.07-04-07_11-20.01.avi, each segment is roughly 2GB) and burn on DVDR.

Cheap storage! And since it's Verbatim, it should be more reliable than using CMC junk.

[lordsmurf]

DVD-18 issues are almost always related to storage issues. Commercial releases are really stupid about giving crappy packaging, and end-users are really stupid when it comes to fingerprints.

[orsetto]

DVD-18 issues are almost always related to storage issues. Commercial releases are really stupid about giving crappy packaging, and end-users are really stupid when it comes to fingerprints.

Agreed, but there are also inherent mfr problems in the format aside from storage and handling. I'm a total anal-retentive perfectionist, handle discs very carefully, even transfer badly-packaged studio discs to my own packaging. None of my precautions help with badly-made dvd-18 pressings. Actually, I've never experienced a "good" DVD-18 pressing: any series set I've picked up in that format has major issues on at least one out of two sides, depending on the player either the video kicks back to the menu when it hits a glitch or it tries to soldier on thru a blizzard of blocks until it freezes totally. Attempting to re-construct the disc on a PC justs stalls at the same spots with "failure: cyclic redundancy check". I've been thru three or four DVD-18 releases, each had to be returned multiple times with no joy until I took a refund. Now I look up the reviews first and if a title I want is on DVD-18, I pretend like I never heard of it. There is no reason aside from rank studio greed to put an old TV season of 22 one-hour episodes that sells for $60 on just three discs. Seriously, does the studio really need the extra 60 cents it would've cost to publish it on six DVD-9s instead? And why do they make *separate* rental-only DVD-9 versions of the same titles exclusively for Netflix, unless they know DVD-18 just can't fly?

The DVD-18 format stinks. On ice. It should be banned from the spec.

[jman98]

Orsetto - Like it or not, DVD-18s take up less space. It takes up less space to put out a 3rd disc set than a 6 disc set. Based on posts I've seen here, a LOT of people are just fanatical about how much space their DVDs take, so I can certainly see a desire to have fewer discs by a lot of customers. Also, if the studios put it out on more DVD-9s, they probably would double the price - twice the discs = twice the price = fewer sales. I'm not saying that makes sense, I'm just saying you might consider that this might be how the studios view it.

[orsetto]

Orsetto - Like it or not, DVD-18s take up less space. It takes up less space to put out a 3rd disc set than a 6 disc set. Based on posts I've seen here, a LOT of people are just fanatical about how much space their DVDs take, so I can certainly see a desire to have fewer discs by a lot of customers. Also, if the studios put it out on more DVD-9s, they probably would double the price - twice the discs = twice the price = fewer sales. I'm not saying that makes sense, I'm just saying you might consider that this might be how the studios view it.

I don't disagree with your points at all, my only beef is the discs simply don't work. I'll take six discs that work over 3 that stutter and freeze any day. In any case studio packaging often has no connection to qty of discs: most 5-6 disc sets are packaged in the same amount of space as the three disc sets. And considering DVD-18s have to be cemented together, adding an extra production step, the cost savings is probably minimal. Again, if they were reliable, I wouldn't care.

BTW, good news released this week in the trade press for all us TV series collectors who are tight on $ and space: Sony has announced all future second-tier (older shows or repackaging of prior individual seasons) "complete series" sets will be in spindle packaging: essentially the same cakebox you buy blank media in, but embedded in a small bookshelf-ready box (hooray: no more fragile plastic trays glued to cardboard). Using their own product as a price reference, they hope to shave 40% or more off current "complete series" pricing. Also, with help from efficient packaging, going forward they will release all future series complete at launch to avoid the dreaded "2 season sets and then retail death" syndrome that has wrecked the availability of classics like Mary Tyler Moore Show and Bob Newhart Show. The first Sony sets scheduled in this manner will be "soap" and "Whats Happening" at $59 list price. Hopefully other studios will follow Sonys lead and many more affordable complete series will come to market that were deemed unsellable as individual seasons.

[[_chef_]]

Thank you all for your helpful comments.

Flash media certainly is possible, but, since I really want only a single use (archiving), I am reluctant to spend the $.

Maybe multiple single layer media is the way to go.

OK, here's a follow up question: Are two single-sided, single-layer DVD+R discs more reliable than one single-sided, dual-layer disc?

Thank you.

Regards,

DG

Depends on too many factors as you could get an definite answer to that..........

Grab a HDD.