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  1. Member
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    I'll agree with bevills1 that Mandrake 7 And 10 were a pain to get packages installed after the initial install. That has changed from 2007 to 2008.1 package install is much much easier than before. I do all and I mean all of my video editing to conversion under Mandrake 2008. if your going to make a statement like:

    "Linux will likely remain just a curiosity and not find wide spread acceptance unless these 2 big obstacles are eliminated."

    Please check a new version of any distro not one thats 3 and 8 yrs old. For me to install Mandrake 2008 and all video apps & games for the kids take a little over 1 hr with no problems after the install & 10 time more stable then WinXp pro on the same machine.
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  2. Member tekkieman's Avatar
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    Originally Posted by bevills1
    The biggest problem with Linux is that so many apps are written for Windows, especially for games and for business.
    ...and many of those can be run in linux through WINE/Cedaga. How many other OSes can do that?

    Originally Posted by bevills1
    In addition it's much too difficult to do the simplest things in Linux.
    Can you define simplest? Without your definition, others would find it difficult to to help/discuss/debate the issue.

    Originally Posted by bevills1
    I tried Mandrake 7 as well as Mandrake 10 a few years later, and I had difficulty installing any new apps after the initial install. I have no time nor any desire to spend a lot of time on things that should be so simple.
    Since Mandrake became Mandriva many moons ago, this says it's been a while since you've tried it. Maybe it's time to take another look? You might also want to take a look at PCLOS. It is derived from Mandriva, but uses Synaptic for package management like the distros that use debs. That makes installing software as simple as selecting it from a list, mark for installation, apply. Doesn't get much simpler than that.

    Originally Posted by bevills1
    Linux will likely remain just a curiosity and not find wide spread acceptance unless these 2 big obstacles are eliminated.
    The number of people on this very forum I've seen trying/using linux just in the last year seems to indicate that those obstacles have been eliminated, or at least reduced to acceptable levels.

    Does this mean that linux is the solution for everybody? No, but considering the number of people worldwide adopting it, I would say "widespread acceptance" is already here.

    Linux isn't for everyone, but for many. it is nice to finally have acceptable alternatives.
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  3. Man of Steel freebird73717's Avatar
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    Originally Posted by bevills1
    The biggest problem with Linux is that so many apps are written for Windows, especially for games and for business.
    For those windows apps that you just cannot live without you can install then with wine. Wine works suprisingly well for alot of windows apps. Games on the other hand are hit and miss. So yes if you are a gamer then linux is probably not for you... or you can dual boot linux and windows so that you can still have your games!

    In addition it's much too difficult to do the simplest things in Linux. I tried Mandrake 7 as well as Mandrake 10 a few years later, and I had difficulty installing any new apps after the initial install. I have no time nor any desire to spend a lot of time on things that should be so simple.
    I've never tried mandrake but in ubuntu installing apps is really pretty easy. For anything available from the repositories you can just click add/remove from the applications menu.



    If your app is not in the repositories you can usually find a deb package installer for the program you want. Very rarely do I have to compile from source... but even then that is pretty simple and straight forward. For windows apps it is as simple as right clicking on the setup.exe file and choosing "open with wine".

    From what I've read other distros are taking similar approaches to making installing apps much simpler.

    It takes some time to learn a new OS. It took time to learn things on windows and it will take time to learn things in linux. I honestly believe that if you set a person in front of a computer that has never been on one before they would learn linux just as fast as they would learn windows.
    Donadagohvi (Cherokee for "Until we meet again")
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  4. Member Seeker47's Avatar
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    Originally Posted by Seeker47
    The merits of the OS aside, I think the killer question remains: How accessible is it to the non-Linux-initiated ? How soon / how easily can you begin finding your way around, able to do anything productive ? In that regard -- so far -- I'm still waiting for one of these to hit even a ground rule double. (Anyone heard any mention of Lindows recently ?)
    Originally Posted by freebird73717
    I think for most of the members of videohelp.com finding your way around any ubuntu variant should be pretty easy.
    I think that's highly debatable. I just rolled off a Mint 4.0 cd (to run live, not for an install), and I see most of the same issues I see with nearly all of these things. Icons so tiny an eagle couldn't see them (I'm sure the desktop characteristics will be changeable, somewhere or other . . . ); a general wall of obtuseness, when it comes to navigating around to find things, much less to actually use them. I could not get onto the internet with it, most likely due to a firewall and fixed IP, despite repeatedly trying to enter those values where appropriate. (Several of these things were non-issues with gOS, also based on Ubuntu.)

    Admittedly, I would need to spend more than that initial 40 minute session with it, in order to give a fair appraisal. But my general point still stands. I have never been a Mac person. The sum total of my Mac usage is probably no more than a handful of these 40 minute sessions. From its earlier days to the present, the design paradigm of the Mac is not too well in sync with the way I approach computer use. Nevertheless, starting from near zero, there are a fair number of useful things I can accomplish on a Mac, before I need help. Not so with the Linuxverse, not yet. That is why I mentioned Lindows, which (I thought) claimed to adopt the Win UI (?), in an effort to make Linux accessible to most everyone. Maybe that ranks up there with the much exaggerated claims that the Mac was going to be so simple and so obvious that almost anyone could just start right up with it ? Until there is a Linux that the mass audience of Windows (or Mac) users can just dive right into -- and I'm probably including relatively unschooled Temp workers here -- I just don't see it having a major impact.

    An awful lot of this does not even come down to the inner mechanics of what's happening under the hood. (I'm well aware that the Mac OS these days is built upon some sort of Linux or Unix. And I know there are Windows problems that may be encountered by an office temp, for which a call to IT support will be necessary.) What it mostly comes down to is the UI design. And, despite a hint of it here, or a Mint of it there, I'm still waiting for some Linux to pull this off, in a polished enough way that it leads many of us to say, "Yeah, maybe this one."

    Originally Posted by freebird73717
    Will linux ever really give microsoft real competition? Honestly probably not. Most of the computing public who just uses their computer to surf the net and check email has probably not even heard of linux. This is where microsoft has linux beat. If you ask most people they will say they have either heard of microsoft windows or used it. One of the greatest strengths of linux is also it's greatest hinderance. There are just too many distros to choose from.
    No kidding. It looked like there were 8 or so choices just for Mint 4.0. I chose the Gnome desktop, but maybe I should have chosen KDE, or one of the others ?

    Originally Posted by freebird73717
    Couple that with lack of advertising and you can understand why linux isn't gaining on microsoft like it could. This could start to change though with the popularity of a few distros and with more hardware manufactuters offering linux as an os preinstalled. I think what you will see though is an increasing number of dual boot computers allowing people to use multiple operating systems in one computer
    That has been an option for the more adventurous users, for quite some time. (I've run multi-boot systems for the past 12 years.)

    Originally Posted by freebird73717
    Honestly I love linux and will continue to support it and spread the word about it. Have you noticed the increasing number of linux posts in the videohelp forums lately? It's a good sign. Makes me very optimistic about the future of linux. :wink:
    Yes, but then when you need to use most of the great video apps discussed here, it still forces you back to Windows, except in those (few ?) cases where you can run the app via an emulator of some kind.

    Don't get me wrong. Like Mulder on the "X Files", I Want to Believe. Someone, free us from Windows -- please ! But I just haven't seen it yet.
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  5. Man of Steel freebird73717's Avatar
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    Originally Posted by freebird73717
    Honestly I love linux and will continue to support it and spread the word about it. Have you noticed the increasing number of linux posts in the videohelp forums lately? It's a good sign. Makes me very optimistic about the future of linux. :wink:
    Originally Posted by Seeker47
    Yes, but then when you need to use most of the great video apps discussed here, it still forces you back to Windows, except in those (few ?) cases where you can run the app via an emulator of some kind.

    Don't get me wrong. Like Mulder on the "X Files", I Want to Believe. Someone, free us from Windows -- please ! But I just haven't seen it yet.
    I haven't been booted into windows in quite a while (almost a month). That hasn't stopped me from using some of my favorite windows apps for video work. HCenc, avisynth, DVDlab Pro, DGpulldown, DVDshrink, DVDrebuilder, DVDfabhddecrypter , vobblanker all work very will with wine. I'm sure there are others that will work with wine as well but those are the ones I use on a regular basis.

    As much as I love linux I am also a realist. Linux will never truly become mainstream until there are only a few highly developed\advertised distros to work with rather than the hundreds we have now. That probably wont happen though. I looked at that linux Vixta. Damn that really does have that windows look to it (didn't install it though. Just checked it out on the web). BTW if you like the looks of windows then you might look at kde distros.

    Glad to see your still interested though seeker47. Keep looking and trying. "The Truth is Out There"
    Donadagohvi (Cherokee for "Until we meet again")
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  6. I have tried numerous flavors and versions of Linux over the past few years, and it is definitely getter better and easier to install and use. I recently installed Ubuntu 8.04 and the install went almost perfectly, but looking on the Ubuntu forms, my success was not universally enjoyed.

    Wireless seems to be one of the biggest issues, and for me, a few mouse clicks and I had wireless working, but for those whose wireless cards were not recognized (and there have been many), the instructions from knowledgeable and helpful Linux users, would fill a small pamphlet: "open terminal > type xxxxx > then type xxxx> then type xxx> and on and on.

    I can find Linux apps to replace just about all my XP apps (haven't really dealt with video production yet), but Linux apps seem to use more system resources and significantly more code: Krusader file manager installed over 50 MB, but Total Commander or Free Commander for Windows uses less than 3MB; Open Office in Linux installed over 500 MB and in XP, I can deselect some unneeded options and OO installed 240 MB; playing music, ripping CD's, and converting between sound formats requires 3 programs and approx 25 MB's in Linux, while Foobar2000 will do the same with around 8MB's.

    Also, I find Linux requires more CPU time - with no Apps running, my Intel Core 2 Duo is at about 95%-96& idle, and in XP it is around 98%-99%. Playing an MP3 in Rhythmbox and doing light surfing with FF drops the CPU idle to around 90%-92%, and in XP (using Foobar2000), the idle is approx 97%. This results in an aprox 5 C temperature increase while using Linux. As I am using a laptop, this can affect battery life.

    I do like Ubuntu (and other Distros) and it is fun to play with, and if I didn't have XP, I could be quite satisfied with Linux, but for me, XP still has the advantage.
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    Does anybody here know whether Peachtree Complete Accounting can be run in Linux via WINE or other means? My accountant uses that, and I have to use it in order for him to use data I compile.

    I didn't realize Mandrake 10 was more than a couple of years old, and maybe things have improved some. KDE is what I chose when I setup Mandrake 7 and 10 because it was recommended by the now discontinued by G4TV "TheScreenSavers." Otherwise I'd have no idea which to choose just as Seeker47 didn't. I had no trouble with initial install including installing all packets, but I ran into difficulty trying to downlaod and install additional Linux software. Has this been improved in latest distros?
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    By a Big whopping YES!

    With Mandriva 2007 thru 2008 spring it has a virtual box available.
    You could load XP in this virtual machine and then load peeachtree within that. This way you would have peachtree when you need it and the dependability of Linux without all the headaches of Windows.

    I have a friend who this exact setup. He only use this virtual machine for peechtree and Linux for everything else.
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  9. Man of Steel freebird73717's Avatar
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    Review of Peachtree Complete Accounting in wine

    Some of the issues with it may have been fixed since the review was using an old (0.9.30.) version of wine. Those issues may have been fixed with the current version of wine. I'm not sure as I don't own that software to install it.
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  10. Member GMaq's Avatar
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    Hi,

    I can vouch for Virtualbox, I run all my favourite Windows video apps, Virtualdub, MPEG-VCR, MPEG Video Wizard etc, from Ubuntu in Virtualbox. On newer systems with 2 or more cores and >2 gig of RAM there is little noticeable performance degradation, even software encoding is about 75% the speed of encoding in WinXP alone. The only catch is you have to RTFM a little bit to get USB working, once you do you can use external HDD's, iPods etc. very easily. Gaming of course is out of the question but if your system can run Virtualbox, WINE becomes much less necessary for many other apps.

    One poster noted the increased CPU used by Linux vs. XP. That obviously is not a remotely fair comparison because most of us were using 256mb of RAM when we first started with XP many years ago, Obviously newer distros of Linux are going to be a little more resource hungry than XP. CPU usage compared between Vista and Ubuntu 8.04 would be a better benchmark.
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  11. Always Watching guns1inger's Avatar
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    What is the point of being one of the 0.63 % of PC users running Linux on the desktop, and then having to run XP under emulation (OK - virtualisation) or Wine to get your windows applications running ?

    Surely, if Linux were a true desktop replacement for Windows, this would not be necessary ?

    Wouldn't it be more logical to run Linux as a virtual machine for the novelty ?
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  12. Member Nitemare's Avatar
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    guns1inger wrote:
    Wouldn't it be more logical to run Linux as a virtual machine for the novelty ?
    This can also be done in many cases... although VirtualPC 97 incorrectly (wait...that's wrong) does-not-FULLY emulate its virtual video card and this has caused me much hassle in getting many other systems to run in it. (especially Ubuntu distros but certainly not limited to those or even to linux) The distros auto detect the "virtual card" and try to run it to it's full potential, which is impossible since Microsoft doesn't virtualize it to its highest possible settings. I'm no windows basher (and still use it regularly) but Microsoft can't even do THIS right (or they choose not to). While virtualBox isn't flawless, it kicks the crap out of virtual PC.

    Ubuntu will install right on windows and can be removed using "add/remove programs" if you don't love it. On boot, you'll have the option of choosing linux or windows.

    I still use windows regularly but I'm having a thrilling affair with LinuxMint and I think it's getting pretty serious.

    There are linux alternatives/replacements to almost everything in windows... but finding them and learning them isn't as easy as using WINE or setting up XP in virtual box and using the stuff you know.

    Right now I'm set up for dual-boot XP/Mint. Once XP is no longer supported, I'm going linux full time with an XP virtual machine. I am totally crushing on Mint. For A/V I think it's the best distro to go with.
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  13. Always Watching guns1inger's Avatar
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    I have played with Mint, and while it certainly is pretty and very responsive, I still don't see the point. There are just too many apps that aren't supported, and while there are a few good ones, the range of quality just isn't there. I don't have the time to try to find all the things I need to re-create my environment, and then to still have to run Windows for a lot of things seem to make the effort a huge waste of time.

    I will also have a look at the latest version of Ubuntu Studio, although I found the previous version to be a great disappointment.

    If I was told tomorrow that I was going to have to go linux full time, I would have to accept that my productivity would be cut to around 30% for the foreseeable future, simply because the tools that do exist to replicate what I run under Windows are pale versions that are accepted because they are the best there is for the platform, not because they truly compare well, and the rest simply don't have anything to compare.

    I can see a desktop with Office, email and basic multimedia playback functions, even basic graphics conversion. But the effort required to do much more makes Windows seem like nirvana.
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  14. Man of Steel freebird73717's Avatar
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    I guess for me it's about choice. I like having the choice to run windows apps when I want and native linux apps when I want. Linux isn't for everyone though and I'll freely admit it. With linux I think you either like it from the start or you don't like it at all.
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    The Review of Peachtree Complete Accounting in wine link given by freebird73717 states it only works correctly for Win98 emulation. Might one anticipate similar issues in virtual box?

    What is meant by "you have to RTFM a little bit to get USB working," and how much time does it require? In Win2k USB works simply by installing drivers. It appears guns1inger may be right about lost productivity using Linux, and still some problems seem to exist for some emulation tools.
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  16. Man of Steel freebird73717's Avatar
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    Originally Posted by bevills1
    The Review of Peachtree Complete Accounting in wine link given by freebird73717 states it only works correctly for Win98 emulation. Might one anticipate similar issues in virtual box?
    I also said that the reviewer was using an old version of wine (0.9.30). Those issues may be fixed now as wine is up to 0.9.61. That being said I cannot verrify if it works well or not as I don't own the software so I can't test for you. If there is a trial version that I can download I will be happy to test for you (at least as much as I can not being familiar with that software).

    edit- and the usb issues GMaq was referring to are related to Virtualbox and not linux. Linux recognizes all of my usb devices with no issues.
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  17. Man of Steel freebird73717's Avatar
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    I think it is funny that my original post was just something funny I found on another forum. I think it is great it has sparked such a good discussion. Very good comments from all involved!
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  18. Member GMaq's Avatar
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    OK,

    gunslinger I think you are missing the point somewhat, You have a valid question about why use Linux to run Windows applications, I think it is a question that certainly holds true in our area of interest (video). Since I am already coming to Linux from Windows I already have paid for and own some of these (Windows) programs, and already know what to expect from them. For instance I have only started to play around with Cinelerra, perhaps it is capable of far more than "MPEG Video Wizard" but I already paid for it and know what to expect and how to use it, so if I am enjoying the other virtues of Linux in areas that it is fully capable in and more secure to use, if it's a matter of just installing one emulation or virtualization program to keep what's worked well from Windows why not?

    I can't fathom how people can be dissappointed because something "different" will quite easily do 98% of what you expect (even though it shouldn't have to) and be pissy because it won't do the remaining 2% without a little extra effort.

    It doesn't have to be an "all or none" proposition, I believe one of the most impressive things about Linux is it's ability to accomodate a code base that has little or nothing on a binary level to do with it's own inner workings.

    @bevills1

    As far as the comment about RTFM, I had to read one sentence and copy 1 string of text to the terminal to have full USB support in Virtualbox, As freebird has pointed out USB support in Linux itself is terrific. As if there are not myriads of equally complicated steps to be taken using apps from any OS, especially open-source ones.

    If that is too much of a bother, I can understand that, Linux will probably not be your cup of tea.

    I don't think anyone here is saying "Linux is BETTER than Windows" or "Linux will do EVERYTHING that Windows can". It would appear some people have kicked the tires, taken a test-drive, and liked what they see....period.
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  19. Member Nitemare's Avatar
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    For me, it's about the way Microsoft does business. DRM, product activation, automatic updates with heavy handed system monitoring... a malware product that spies on you... things like that. By now we've all read the "annoying by design" memo about Vista... which, ironically, they do to achieve a more unix-like permissions environment... something built into every version of linux, ever.

    These things are not making me want to go with the Microsoft plan. I have no issues with MS products... just their way of doing business. It's THEIR way or the highway.

    I'd rather choose the highway than continue to support the MS way. BUT... since I love some of their products, it's nice that I can still use the things I liked while rejecting what I didn't.

    I don't hate Windows... I hate not being able to use my computer the way I want. BUT... unlike this group, most people just use their computers for internet. Linux is as good as windows for that.
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  20. Man of Steel freebird73717's Avatar
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    Originally Posted by GMaq
    For instance I have only started to play around with Cinelerra, perhaps it is capable of far more than "MPEG Video Wizard" but I already paid for it and know what to expect and how to use it, so if I am enjoying the other virtues of Linux in areas that it is fully capable in and more secure to use, if it's a matter of just installing one emulation or virtualization program to keep what's worked well from Windows why not?

    I completely agree!

    I don't think anyone here is saying "Linux is BETTER than Windows" or "Linux will do EVERYTHING that Windows can". It would appear some people have kicked the tires, taken a test-drive, and liked what they see....period.


    Once again... good posts from everyone involved (pro, con, and neutral)!
    Donadagohvi (Cherokee for "Until we meet again")
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  21. Always Watching guns1inger's Avatar
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    Except that for me Linux only does less than 50% of what I want to do, and most of this with compromises in quality or functionality. GIMP is not photoshop, or even half of photoshop. It is more like Paint Shop Pro 3's ugly cousin.

    I am not against open source and freeware product, and use a lot of it day to day. Some of the tools I use come in both Linux and Windows flavours, which is also great for both camps. But the bulk of the ones I use are Windows only, and the inconvenience of running two environments when Linux presents no compelling reason to use it, is far more than 2%.

    What I don't have at the moment is 'killer app' reason to run Linux. Most of the arguments put forward for using it aren't about the great features or the something amazing you can only do under Linux. They are more about conscience, about not wanting to be part of the Microsoft machine. That's fine. It is the same argument for driving a Prius. You get a get a car that has four wheels and gets from a to b, but it does it with compromises to features, power and hidden costs. You don't drive one because it is a good car - it isn't. You choose to drive one for less rational, more conscience driven reasons. That is one way to make a decision. But I don't believe or feel that I am part of the Microsoft Machine (whatever that might be) simply because I use their products. Hell, if I decided not use products created by people of low morals, poor social conscience or that made others wealthy, I would be living naked in a cave, eating moss and slowly starving to death.

    I will continue to test drive different distros as they evolve, and hope that the killer app comes along. I actually hoped that Unbuntu Studio would be that app - a bundled video/audio/gfx workstation ready to roll. The first release, based on Ubuntu 7.04, wasn't really that good. I believe it was down to being built on Ubuntu, that was the cause of most of it's problems. Hopefully the new version is better and more complete.
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  22. Member FulciLives's Avatar
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    Originally Posted by guns1inger
    What I don't have at the moment is 'killer app' reason to run Linux. Most of the arguments put forward for using it aren't about the great features or the something amazing you can only do under Linux. They are more about conscience, about not wanting to be part of the Microsoft machine. That's fine. It is the same argument for driving a Prius. You get a get a car that has four wheels and gets from a to b, but it does it with compromises to features, power and hidden costs. You don't drive one because it is a good car - it isn't. You choose to drive one for less rational, more conscience driven reasons.
    I suppose that this is a valid point to make ... to an extent ... but what I think is important to keep in mind here is that there is nothing wrong or deficient or crippling about the Linux OS per se. In other words the modern day Gnome or KDE desktop Linux OS is just as capable ... if not more so ... than Windows XP or Vista etc.

    In short it is the lack of (quality) software but NOT the Linux OS that is the limiting factor for Linux.

    I think that is an important distinction to make. Your comment makes it sound like LINUX is not as good as MICROSOFT. In the sense of the OS I say NO but in the sense of (quality) software ... I kinda sorta have to agree.

    Having said that though I still like Linux and find many things about it to be "transparent" from MS Windows. I mean I use FireFox in both ... I use Thunderbird in both ... I use VLC in both ... I find KTorrent to be as good as uTorrent ... I find Xchat to be as good as mIRC, etc.

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  23. Always Watching guns1inger's Avatar
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    Originally Posted by FulciLives
    Originally Posted by guns1inger
    What I don't have at the moment is 'killer app' reason to run Linux. Most of the arguments put forward for using it aren't about the great features or the something amazing you can only do under Linux. They are more about conscience, about not wanting to be part of the Microsoft machine. That's fine. It is the same argument for driving a Prius. You get a get a car that has four wheels and gets from a to b, but it does it with compromises to features, power and hidden costs. You don't drive one because it is a good car - it isn't. You choose to drive one for less rational, more conscience driven reasons.
    I suppose that this is a valid point to make ... to an extent ... but what I think is important to keep in mind here is that there is nothing wrong or deficient or crippling about the Linux OS per se. In other words the modern day Gnome or KDE desktop Linux OS is just as capable ... if not more so ... than Windows XP or Vista etc.

    In short it is the lack of (quality) software but NOT the Linux OS that is the limiting factor for Linux.

    I think that is an important distinction to make. Your comment makes it sound like LINUX is not as good as MICROSOFT. In the sense of the OS I say NO but in the sense of (quality) software ... I kinda sorta have to agree.

    Having said that though I still like Linux and find many things about it to be "transparent" from MS Windows. I mean I use FireFox in both ... I use Thunderbird in both ... I use VLC in both ... I find KTorrent to be as good as uTorrent ... I find Xchat to be as good as mIRC, etc.

    - John "FulciLives" Coleman
    I actually wasn't trying to compare Linux unfavorably Windows as an OS, and I'm sorry if that is how it came across. At a technology level I acknowledge that it is, in many ways, superior. I have come from a long Unix background on large hardware, and understand where the advantages lie. Somewhere in the editing I ended up removing a line where I said that at the moment, the 'killer app' for Linux really is, well, Linux. Yes, there is a lot of cross over software like Firefox and Thunderbird, and that's all well and good. But these aren't the apps that you use to run a business in most cases. I spend a lot of time in the Education arena, and have a large school as a client where we have 600+ laptops and 120 odd desktops in use. I am on several education mailing lists and there are some very vocal Linux supporters who advocate almost daily that education should move completely to Linux rather than pay Microsoft any money for their products (and it is invariably always driven first and foremost on the need to not pay Microsoft money). I then look at the types of issues we deal with on a daily basis, and the type of software that is used on a daily basis, and there is simply no way we could replace our environment with a Linux based environment without

    a) Retraining all our staff
    b) Throwing out all our software
    c) Starting again from a base of software that would cover about 7 - 10% of we currently provide

    It would not reduce our support issues, and very few of these are Windows based to begin with.

    Could we start again with Linux as the OS ? Yes.

    Could we provide the same range of opportunities and tools at the same level of professionalism to the students and staff ? No.

    However, if someone could put Ubuntu Studio onto Mint, I have a machine ready to install it on.
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  24. Member Nitemare's Avatar
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    I actually wasn't trying to compare Linux unfavorably Windows as an OS, and I'm sorry if that is how it came across.
    I didn't read it that way at all. Even if you were... you could disagree with me any day of the week, sir... because you do it with such flair. Case in point:
    GIMP is not photoshop, or even half of photoshop. It is more like Paint Shop Pro 3's ugly cousin.
    Hell, if I decided not use products created by people of low morals, poor social conscience or that made others wealthy, I would be living naked in a cave, eating moss and slowly starving to death.
    Not only are these valid points, but I laughed out loud when I read them.

    I agree about the "killer apps". this is why I tell everyone I know about Linux. If Linux suddenly surged to even a lowly 10% market share, official hardware support and software apps would start appearing everywhere and Linux would be a SERIOUS contender.

    I know that the linux community is awesome, but they can shoot themselves in the foot, too. I'm all for free software, I really am. BUT, the linux community tends to shun ANYTHING that isn't absolutely free.... they want source code for everything! No one who wants to make a living writing killer apps will do this. No, I don't want to pay extra for drivers for my hardware... but I bought Photoshop once before (years ago..ps4), and I'd be willing to do it again to run it under Linux. (or use WINE ... or virtualbox if I have to)

    Mint takes a lot of heat for not being COMPLETELY open source. My "proprietary Nvidia" drivers came with Mint. They cost me nothing, but other distros won't provide them for me BECAUSE they're proprietary. Without the source code they're not free enough, I guess. This kind of mentality has to be rethought if Linux wants to be serious contender, in my opinion.

    Having said that, you'd think that having an open source OS would be great for software developers. No hidden APIs, no proprietary OS code that only the OS manufacturer has knowledge of... why aren't people writing apps for Linux? It boggles the mind.
    Even a broken clock is right twice a day.
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  25. I am using linux.
    [OT] My son (2 month old) will use linux too, and will learn and know linux better then Windows.[/OT]

    i know that i loose some usefull application of windows (for me is Adobe Premiere, my preferred NLE) but i will glady "paid" this cost since i got more security, no licenses, and a subtle satisfaction on not using windows (btw i will continue using Win at work, for rest of my life... i suppose )

    i think in early future (5 years) linux will be proposed (by media and distribuition) as a complete Windows replacement for all kind of users.
    Le me explain better, for a normal user , linux (using ubuntu/opensuse/mandrivia...) is already a fully fuctional OS, with a great selection of software and hw compatibility. But time is needed for Consumers and Manufacturers for take this route.
    Just for some video freak (like me) will miss some applications, BUT AGAIN on linux there are not one but usually several alternative to the same Windows softwares

    As time goes more users will use linux and will bring more money and more money mean more applications.

    Software Houses will start to produce SW for both linux and windows

    License Problem like free software but not FOSS, it's a false problem, since hardware manufacturer have all interest in developing and distribuiting support for it's products.
    I can install on my debian any softwares, even not free. This is as windows, search a driver and install it. No more no less (well .. i will not mention installer procedures..)

    Last thing about developers.. wxwidget/gtk2.. are a PITA for developer, not easy neither quick, but it's like to learn a tongue, your mother tongue is never too difficult

    BHH
    HDConvertToX, AutoMen, AutoMKV Developer
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  26. Man of Steel freebird73717's Avatar
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    Originally Posted by buzzqw
    Last thing about developers.. wxwidget/gtk2.. are a PITA for developer, not easy neither quick, but it's like to learn a tongue, your mother tongue is never too difficult
    Yep. That is what I'm using to work on a linux app right now and it has taken me a while to wrap my head around it. I've gotten there now though. Just took some time!

    OT. I had a question about your autoff linux version but I'll ask it in your thread at doom9
    Donadagohvi (Cherokee for "Until we meet again")
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  27. Member tekkieman's Avatar
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    @guns1inger - Since I am not a "graphics professional", I cannot comment on what is so important in PS that GIMP is missing. But as a "typical" computer user, GIMP has 100% of the features that I use. These are the same features I used in Paint Shop 8 when I used Windows.

    When my high school age nephew complained he needed PS for a design class he was taking, I gave him a copy of GIMP. The class now uses that in the school rather than PS.

    I am not suggesting that GIMP can replace PS in the professional world (but for other reasons than features as well), and I personally do not enjoy the interface (which is why I use krita instead), but your "less than 50%" comparison lacked the standard by which you were measuring, so I provide a counter-example. (although I enjoyed the "ugly cousin" comment)

    @ Nitemare - I think the very vocal group demanding free (as in beer) and open (must have source) software isn't nearly as large as the group that just wants more software available. I (and I can speak for other linux users I know) would not mind paying a reasonable amount for software I wanted.
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  28. @tekkieman

    a little advantage of being open source.. try http://www.gimpshop.com/ .. the Gimp with PhotShop interface

    BHH
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  29. Member GMaq's Avatar
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    @guns1inger,

    Just in case you weren't aware, all of the Ubuntu Studio apps are in the main Ubuntu repos anyway so you can install them in any Ubuntu or Mint etc. I too had high hopes for Ubuntu Studio more from the Audio side of things but found as a distro it ships with waaaay too many apps and little to no documentation how to put them all together. I am using 7.10 with all the "Studio" apps I really want/need hand picked, including the realtime Kernel.

    As far as workflow, coming from 10 years of a Windows based DAW. I was addicted to VST Audio plug-ins. There is no real stable solution for this in Linux, however after getting used to the GUI limitations of LADSPA plug-ins I found I can accomplish much the same results, as well as routing possibilities with JACK that just don't exist in the Windows World.

    Obviously Photoshop/GIMP is a different argument because of the visual element involved, The point being some of these "limitations" are more based on perception than actual ability to execute the end result.

    I found for a while I was tryng to apply Windows "rules" to Linux applications. Sometimes it is best to not compare to anything and just evaluate the application on it's ability to provide the finished product.

    Just my 2cents.
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    Like Nitemare I too dislike the way Microsoft does business with the activation crap, spying on users, etc. which is why I chose Win2k over WinXP shortly after WinXP was released a few years ago. I've also done some registry mods to disable user tracking and clear page file on shutdown to further reduce all spying regardless if Microsoft or other. I plan to continue using Win2k as long as there's support for it by which time Linux may be even better and may take another look at that time.
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