Authoring AVCHD

[Verminaard]

Hello all,

I am not really a newbie for the video editing, but I am newbie to this forum. I am a Sony SR7 owner, and I've been trying to create AVCHD discs with a little touch.

First I've tried Power Director. It's a good program, but it's not really handling AVHCD properly, has a lot of limitations. So I've skipped it.

Then I've came across to this document -> http://www.digital-digest.com/articles/Nero_Vision_5_AVCHD_Authoring_Guide_page1.html it seems that Nero Handles AVCHD better than CyberLink.

But I am still having some issues with Nero Vision. I don't know where to post my questions on this forum, if someone could give me a hand, I appreciate it.

Thanks in advance...

[Baldrick]

If you don't know where to post then post in this forum. Just reply in this topic with your question.

edit: AVCHD authoring or it's actually a Blu-ray Video that Nero Vision makes would fit in the Blu-ray Authoring forum. I can move this topic for you.

[Verminaard]

Thanks Baldrick,

Please move this topic to the proper room then...

Here's my issues:

General Info:
I have different clips shot in different days. I want them to be in one disc. So I am adding the videos to Nero Vision. The media I am going to use is DVD9, so I am choosing the media size and indicator shows that the predicted size of my project. I fill up my workplace about 7.3 gigs of several clips.

What I need to do is, put all these videos together, put transition in between and put the text over the video to show the date that the initial clip has shot and mark all the separate clips into the chapters.

I know how to do all of my issues above. I do them, previews shows everything correctly but the end result is not the way I've wanted, here's what happens:

1-The finished size of the video is about 1gb smaller than what is predicted on the project screen (the green indicator).

2-The dates that I've put as texts does not show up (except the very first one).

3-My video starts and ends with fade in/fade out. All the clips transites with the same effect, the date text appears after the transition effect is complete and I have set all the seperate clips as chapters (automated process). All works fine with previews, but when I render it. Fade in and first text works, but then the video kind of stutters and hangs in the begining (like the first 10 seconds) if I skip that moment manually, it plays, if I don't, it justs loops that same scene. None of the transition effects show, when it comes to the transition mark the video pauses and then just starts the next scene. The chapter mark and the transition effect and the date texts are actually at the same timeline, I am assuming maybe that's the reason but I am not sure though.

If you have a better software suggestion for what I am trying to do, please feel free to let me know.

Thanks in advance.

[PuzZLeR]

You're probably not going to like what I'm going to say, but I will just give my opinion.

Hang on to your footage for the meantime and be patient.

I appreciate apps from Cyberlink and Nero in their efforts to try and deliver a solution, but it's still too early and those apps just aren't ready yet. They are not flexible, they're buggy and they insist on re-encoding everything even if your streams are fully compliant. This re-encoding eats valuable quality, sometimes even gives you a much bigger size and takes EONS to encode. Not acceptable to me and shouldn't be to you either.

I'm waiting for a dedicated AVCHD editor/encoder/authoring program - meaning something that will understand what is disc compliant first of all, and will only encode where you make edits (cuts, joins, fades, transitions, etc.).

It's still a bit pre-mature today.

But I'm waiting for apps like Womble, TMPGEnc (MPEG Editor+Author) and VideoRedo to do AVCHD/BD, and hopefully they remain dedicated encoders for AVCHD like they are currently for MPEG 1/2.

[Verminaard]

Hello PuzZleR

Thanx for the response. Do you have any idea on how Adobe Premiere handles the AVCHD files? I can see that it's supported. I have used Premier for post production for a long time so I am really familiar with it, and is Vegas Pro is a wise alternative?

[Soopafresh]

Vegas is a great alternative IF your camera is a Sony. I know you have a Sony SR 7, but I phrased it like that for others who stumble upon this thread. Vegas has problems with non-Sony AVCHD files, at least as of this date.

[PuzZLeR]

Hearsay is that Sony's AVC encoder is terrible for Vegas. Adobe has a MainConcept plug-in, so that shows promise. I'm currently experimenting with Ulead, which could be the first to show some real promise.

Nevertheless, I hear that both Sony and Adobe's apps also insist on re-encoding, which has killed my motivation to do their trials. But you never know huh?

Soopafresh: A little off-topic, but hopefully when you have some time maybe you can write a companion guide on converting TO AVCHD compliant streams to go along with your guide on converting FROM them. If it's from you, I would feel confident reading it.

[Soopafresh]

PuzZLeR - I saw your posts on the topic. The only comment I can make (and it's probably wrong) is that AVCHD is basically hybrid interlaced/progressive h264 and muxed with an AC3 track into a TS container. I don't know whether the X264 programming team has incorporated PAFF support (the hybrid prog/interlacing) into their app. You can't mux it into MP4 because MP4 won't support AC3 audio, so you'd have to use Tsmuxer (I think) to create the container.

I only figured out how to convert from AVCHD because of the trouble others were having with .MTS files. I don't even own an AVCHD camcorder. Even though the technology has been around for 18 months, the editing apps have been lacking. It's still a big PITA to edit the files directly!

The latest update of CoreAVC has been really good in regards to DirectShow support. It's more robust than the ffdshow option. I'm guessing if the editor supports directshow (instead of the more common VFW), you could have a pretty fast way to edit AVCHD. Again, I'm guessing.

[PuzZLeR]

Thanks for your response Soopafresh.

Your "guesses" do have great accuracy. AVCHD is a form of H.264 with AC3/LPCM/etc audio into an M2TS container. As well, I hear that the x264 team is working on educated guesses as well, and have patched x264 with nal_hrd, and using command lines with no B-pyramids, no P 4x4, keyint parameters, etc. to get compliant streams. I believe it's a work in progress still, but they're getting there. As well TSMuxer and TSReMux will be able to mux in any compliant stream.

I guess my hope is that if enough content is out there, such as encoding it too, then it would stimulate and encourage the market and even OSS to make these streams more manageable with editors too, as this post is about. I am cheering for it too since it belongs with a fluid disc standard as well.

Yes it is a big pain editing any form of H.264, including AVCHD. And personally I have the full version of CoreAVC, which has made the most positive difference yet. But, as much as the author of this post doesn't want to hear, we're not there yet. But we're close.

[pepegot1]

It'd still a SDVD world. These companies jump the gun-no planning or coordination, just throw it ouy there and let the poor sap suffer.

[racer-x]

PuzZLeR wrote:

A little off-topic, but hopefully when you have some time maybe you can write a companion guide on converting TO AVCHD compliant streams

I've been experimenting with profile settings in MeGui / x264 for just that purpose. The problem with x264, is Interlaced support isn't 100% yet. That could change soon though. Anyway I created some custom Profiles that seam to create compliant AVCHD streams after muxing .264 and ac3 into m2ts using TsMuxer. I say they are compliant, because I can import them into Nero Vision to author an AVCHD and Nero won't re-encode them. They have the proper AR 1440 x 1080 and display correctly in 1920 x 1080. I created special profiles for 1080i and 1080p to support my HDV video and Hi-Def slideshows.

Anyone interested, here are my custom profiles:


avchd_1440x1080_profiles.zip

**** NOTE***
You'll need to tell Avisynth the correct Field Order for the interlaced source before you feed the script to MeGui. You can use a line like this for HDV source:

AssumeTFF()

[Verminaard]

Just a little add on,

When I proceed with Nero Vision and play with settings, it does not really re-encode the video, because it finishes up in ~20 minutes. I think I also found out why the transitions and texts were not working for me earlier. Just need to make sure before I can fire it off here.

[PuzZLeR]

Racer-x: Thanks for the profiles, I'm actually experimenting with them currently. However, I'm still miffed about how you get NeroVision to accept streams without re-encoding them. I've even tried the "Import AVCHD from hard drive" function and all I get is an error with anything. I guess there's a typo, when it means disc recorder instead... does it?

Verminaard:20 minutes would be a good time without re-encoding. When you're more certain, can you tell us your steps?

[racer-x]

You must be doing something wrong, because I know for sure that Nero Vision DOES NOT re-encode my compliant m2ts clips I create. How do I know for sure, you might ask?

1) I create a new AVCHD project in Vision 5 and import my m2ts clips as tittles.
2) I use the default settings making sure that "Smart Rendering" is enabled.
3) Once I start the compiling process, nero quickly scans through each clip (1-3 min each) and encodes the menu and creates the file structure. The whole process takes 5 - 20 min depending on disk size. To re-encode it would've taken hours........
4) I latter check the new files it creates and my clips are unchaged.

As a test, I created a Hi-Def slideshow 1440 x 1080 30p. I encoded with 3.5 mbps average and I used "B" frames. The default bitrate in Vision is 12 mbps and it only encodes "I" and "P" frames, not "B" frames. When I tested the new clip in the AVCHD folders, it was still the same 3.5 mbps and had the original "B" frames. That proves that it was not touched...............

[terjeber]

Hearsay is that Sony's AVC encoder is terrible for Vegas. Adobe has a MainConcept plug-in

Just for the record, Vegas comes with the MainConcept encoder as well as the Sony AVC encoder. The Sony one isn't terrible, it is just not very flexible and configurable, but then again, you should be using the MainConcept encoder anyway, so that isn't much of an issue.

[PuzZLeR]

Adobe has a MainConcept plug-in

Well, don't use Vegas, but certainly nice to know. I guess they locked it up with the major editors like also with Adobe and Ulead.

BTW, yes, you SHOULD be using MainConcept if it's an alternate choice to Sony's. MainConcept rocks! At the DivX forums us Mods are awaiting a new DivX codec from MC since the acquisition. Should be sweet.

[PuzZLeR]

Racer-x, thanks for your reply. I am currently running some test encodes (takes a while as you know) and will report back with my findings. Looking forward to it...

[PuzZLeR]

Racer-x, your profile worked perfectly, even with a tweak or two. NeroVision swallowed it whole and didn't touch it. Thanks.

The reason it didn't work for me was that NeroVision does not accept streams encoded with MeGUI's "SA-Blu-ray" profile, although these streams run fine in blu-ray players.

NeroVision also never accepts any SD material, whether encoded with the "SD-Blu-ray" profile, or SD encoded even with your profile, even though the SD resolutions I used are fully compliant with the AVCHD standard and have worked on blu-ray players.

So either I believe that NeroVision is, as of yet, incomplete, or I'm missing something.

As well, I'd like to ask, how did you derive, or where did you find, these profiles?

Thanks again.

[racer-x]

Well I got some of the extra command strings from some posts I've read. I then changed the SAR to match the HDV 1440 x 1080. But mostly lots of trial and error. I'm no genius, but every once in a while I get it right.

Glad it worked out for you. Hopefully it will help others with the same problems.........

[PuzZLeR]

A couple of scraps of info and you glued it all together - good work! And you got the sar value correct - you need --sar 4:3 to get an AR of 16:9 for 1440x1080 (doing the math...).

BTW - It won't work with quantizers or certain bitrates though. I really still believe that NV is limited, but nevertheless, I can assume your profile is a common denominator of compatibility. Thanks for your insight.

I'm still unsure about what the differences would be between profiles (blu-ray and racer-x's AVCHD). Both are supposedly blu-ray compatible. However, I would assume the subset is indeed the AVCHD profile.

[Verminaard]

Well I got some updates for my own questions

NeroVision does not seem to handle AVCHD files well period. (Will get into the details later)

I've played around with Vegas for a while, it seems that it's capable of what I'm trying to do, but still I need to learn the interface because it's much more complicated than any other video editing software that I know and Sony is really terrible when it comes to User Manuals.

So is there a guide for Vegas pro that anyone can point out? I've found some tutorial videos on youtube, but they are mainly showing "How to create your own Lightsaber effects" in 1000 different ways

[racer-x]

Here's a Track Masks tutorial for Vegas I did a year ago. You should learn something there:

http://www.vimeo.com/845247

[Verminaard]

I'll check it out, thx racer-x

[LEONESVIZZERO]

sorry i wont use my nero vision see suite nero release 8.1.1.0
this nero vision is fully compatible with a new format avchd on dvd-r ???
i wont build a dinamic menu not static and good authoring avchd on dvd-r
i am waiting your information
thanks a lot leone

[PuzZLeR]

this nero vision is fully compatible with a new format avchd on dvd-r ???

Not fully. NeroVision does accept AVCHD streams, but not all of them. It only accepts certain resolutions and certain bitrates for some reason, and, as a result, will re-encode even perfectly good AVCHD content, which takes a long, long time and loses quality. So as of yet, I consider it incomplete. However, if it accepts the streams your camera or encoder, generates, without re-encoding, then it will be fine for you.

i wont build a dinamic menu not static and good authoring avchd on dvd-r

Whether it accepts your stream, or it re-encodes, the menu options, and burning to disc, of Nero have always been top-notch. No exception here.

In the meantime I'm looking into a "trick" where you can build a nice menu layout with NeroVision on a disc, yet replace the streams with the ones you want instead of the re-encoded ones. You will need a hex editor for this. If I succeed, I will re-post.

[Verminaard]

Well it's been a while since my last respond to this thread. I've been working on Vegas Pro and I'm amazed with its capabilities. I dropped all the other video editors and investing in Vegas. I am now studying to get its credentials (SCVU and SCVE). It's really a miracle editing with easy to use interface. It looks complicated at first, but if you watch the existing tutorials on youtube, you will see it's really easy in no time.

Vegas Rocks

[PuzZLeR]

Hi, nice to read your post.

For our sake, can I get you to give us a little more detail from a first-hand user? This would be tons better than an ad claiming this and that about AVCHD/BD.

I particularly have one question:

Does it do lossless editing of AVCHD, only re-encoding around where you made edits instead of the whole thing? (Obviously this would mean quality and time benefits.) Does the same apply to any H.264/AVC blu-ray stream? If you need a sample of the latter, I'd be more than glad to upload one.

Thanks.

[Verminaard]

Hey PuzZler,

The videos I edited had lots of event/fx/transitions applied throughout the timeline. I was trying to make myself familiarize with it, so I applied whatever I could find Therefore, it's rendering the entire timeline. Let me try to render a video with some effects in the beginning and untouched at the rest. I have made some digging, it's confirmed that Vegas does not re-encode the unnecessary parts on other video formats (just copies them), but can't find anything on AVCHD. It needs a "hand-on" experience...

Where are you in Toronto?

[PuzZLeR]

Hi Verminaard,

If you need a sample AVCHD or H.264 blu-ray stream, I would be more than happy to upload. After you figure it out, if you can do a cut or two, nothing major, and can get Vegas to output without any of that re-encode nonsense then I'm then buying it.

I'm in the North York area of Toronto, near Allen/401 but have a car if need be. Let's do lunch. We can discuss it in PM.

[Verminaard]

Hey PuzZler,

I've (tried to) sent you a response from PM, but I doubt you recieved it cuz it lays in my outbox, not in sentbox. Please let me know if you have it.