Gold archival quality DL media?

[Disco Makberto]

Hi, there!

I have been trying to find everywhere any DL (double layer/dual layer) DVD+R/DVD-R "gold" archival quality media. I am talking about something similar to the "gold" MAM-A DVD+R/DVD-R but in DL. Do they really exist? After looking for them exhaustively, I am beginning to think that they don't even exist. And why is this the case, I mean, if they are not in the market? I don't think it is hard to use "gold" dye on DL media unless I am missing something.

CAL
Disco Makberto

[guns1inger]

Given only Verbatim have been able to even remotely close to consistent quality production of DL media, and only out of Singapore, I'm not surprised that you can find so called Archival Quality discs.

[jman98]

Archival quality DL discs don't exist from anyone.

My understanding is that DVD dyes are all pretty much the same, with the exception of Verbatim who I think does use some variation of their patented Azo dye even in their DVD discs. DVDs aren't like CD-Rs where there are 3 or 4 different types of dyes.

If it makes you feel any better, many feel that MAM-A's claims that their dye is superior and longer lasting may be nothing more than marketing.

[VegasBud]

Disco Makberto,

As guns1inger pointed out, dual layer media is difficult enough to produce using silver alloy for both the semi-reflective and reflective layers.

Since gold is less reflective than silver alloy, it wouldn't be as good a choice for the reflective layer...and gold costs more. It doesn't make sense to increase the manufacturing cost (and market price) to produce a disk that isn't better.

Gold can, and has, been used for the semi-reflective layer, but using silver alloy for both the reflective and semi-reflective layers results in better L0 - L1 balanced reflectivity. Again, there is no motivation to use the more expensive gold.

A couple other thoughts:

As the NIST points out, the dye is going to break down before the reflective layer(s), regardless of which metal is used, so it doesn't matter that the gold will outlast the silver alloy. The chain breaks at the weakest link. Making a link more robust doesn't make the chain stronger unless the improvement is to the weakest link.

The reality is that good quality dvdr media is already likely to outlast the technology. I have 5.25" floppy disks that probably still work, but I haven't had a drive that can access them in quite some time, so they're of absolutely no use to me. There isn't much point in having dvdr disks that last forever, when you won't have the equipment to read them long before they fail.

Given the above, I wouldn't be too quick to dismiss jman98's theory that "archival" dvdr media has more to do with marketing than practicality.

[jman98]

VegasBud - Nice post, but you're putting words in my mouth.

I specifically mentioned that some people (I did NOT say whether or not I am one of those people - in fact, I am undecided on this) felt that ONE specific company (MAM-A) had claims that may have had more to do with marketing than reality.

Going from that to saying that I "dismiss" archival quality DVD-R media is a pretty big leap. I do not, in fact, dismiss such media per se and if I was going to use it, I would buy Verbatim's as I suspect (just a hunch) that their patented Azo dye MAY have superior archival characteristics.

[VegasBud]

jman98,

Sorry about putting words into your mouth. I hope they didn't taste too bad before you spit them out.

I hate edited posts, so for anyone reading this, please substitute the following sentence for the last sentence of my previous post:

"Given the above, I wouldn't be too quick to dismiss the theory that "archival" dvdr media has more to do with marketing than practicality."

As for the "dismiss" part, it referred to the theory ("dismiss the theory"), not to your opinion of archival media.

[Disco Makberto]

Dear e-Folks,

Thank you for the technical explanations. Now I understand why it is not a good idea to have gold archival DL DVDR's.

As for the media outlasting the technology, and hence, making the media obsolete, I don't completely agree. In my point of view, what makes the media obsolete or not is the material recorded onto it and not the media per se. And this is even more important in the case of pre-recorded media. For instance, there is a Japanese LD by Olivia Newton-John that hasn't been released on any other media like VHS, VCD, DVD, etc. This LD by Olivia Newton-John, in spite of the fact that the LD technology is no longer with us, is still relevant and collectable.

CAL
D-Mak

[piano632]

Gold DL media will likely never happen. Even SL gold media is hard to produce. Verbatim probably tried it and failed, which is why they produced UltraLife discs with silver on the data side and gold on the label side (instead of all gold). I think MAM-A is the only one who managed it, and even they had a rough time of it because gold reflects at a different frequency than silver (they even had to stop production for a couple years and change to different stampers and dye because of compatibility problems). The ones I tried didn't even burn that well at 2x speed (judging by error rates) and they can't be burnt any faster than 4x without serious errors, so if SL media has this much of a problem with gold I can only imagine how impossible DL would be.

[Disco Makberto]

Wow, that's very interesting, piano632!

Incidentally, do you know of any unbranded DL DVDR's as "half gold" (my words) which is nothing more than DL DVDR's with gold on the label side and purple/green/blue on the data side? Of course, I know that these type of discs have nothing to do with archival grade ones.

CAL
D-Mak

P.S.: I think the discs I am referring to are called "top gold" discs.

[Disco Makberto]

Addendum: Falcon offers an interesting alternative, and that is, gold on the bottom (recording side) and silver on the top (label side)! However, this only applies to single DVD-R and not DL DVD-R. Oh, well! CAL

[piano632]

No, DL discs do not exist with half gold. The closest thing to archival grade DL might be Taiyo Yuden -R DL which as mentioned in another tread is only sold in Japan and not exported to other countries. So unless you want to travel to Japan to get some, I'd say stick with Verbatim +R DL.

[Disco Makberto]

But I believe that the Taiyo Yuden DL DVD-R's are only available with white top, and I am not looking for those. Anyway, thank you for bringing the point to my attention.

CAL
D-Mak

[SCDVD]

I know there are some that will react like I am criticizing their daddy but I don't care. Archival gold DVD-R is a bogus marketing stunt aimed at gullible dummies looking for a way to feel good about spending more money. I am specifically referring to Verbatim. Verbatim makes very good media; I'm not suggesting otherwise. but that doesn't change the fact that their archival gold is a stunt. The reflective layer is actually a silver alloy. It has to be silver or the reflectively characteristics of gold would perform very poorly. The gold is applied on top of the silver so you can look at it and feel good. With DVD media, the reflective layer is sealed and protected by the top plastic disc. It doesn't need any more "protection". The only thing that needs protection is your wallet if you are gullible enough to swallow the pitch.

[jman98]

Despite what you might think from my earlier comments, I appreciate your post very much, SCDVD. That's good info to know.

[lordsmurf]

I know there are some that will react like I am criticizing their daddy but I don't care. Archival gold DVD-R is a bogus marketing stunt aimed at gullible dummies looking for a way to feel good about spending more money. I am specifically referring to Verbatim. Verbatim makes very good media; I'm not suggesting otherwise. but that doesn't change the fact that their archival gold is a stunt. The reflective layer is actually a silver alloy. It has to be silver or the reflectively characteristics of gold would perform very poorly. The gold is applied on top of the silver so you can look at it and feel good. With DVD media, the reflective layer is sealed and protected by the top plastic disc. It doesn't need any more "protection". The only thing that needs protection is your wallet if you are gullible enough to swallow the pitch.

This is 100% correct.

Much like sticky DVD labels, this is a DVD-related product that is only sold because people are stupid enough to buy them. P.T. Barnum, assuming the quote is really his, is still correct 100 years later -- a sucker is indeed born every minute. They grow up to be "gold DVD" buyers. End of story. Harsh, maybe? Truth, absolutely!

Replying to another comment by another poster (piano), gold is not harder to produce, but rather it is poorer as a reflective surface. Verbatim only strives to make the best media, so they would never use sub-grade materials. All they've done with their Archival line is provide a desired (yet fully unneeded) product. By adding gold to one side, they give that feel-good shiny metal to dummies that think they need it, but maintain silver on the reflective side so as not to affect the quality of the product. There is some truth that gold might last longer, but given how these discs are in a vacuum anyway, it won't be until AFTER the dyes/crystals have broken down on the R/RW media.

[piano632]

Early CD-R discs always had gold reflective layers because of bonding issues which may have let air seep in. However, I'm not sure how much benefit it would have today assuming the bonding is air-tight.

Despite the unimpressiveness of Delkin's gold discs, I still maintain that MAM-A silver CD-R are some of the best out there. Great for audio use because of high reflectivity and crisp sound quality. Though for some bizarre reason I have yet to understand, Mitsui/MAM-A discs scan with high error rates when freshly burned, but if you scan them again a couple months later the error rates have dropped considerably to very respectable levels. Verbatim's CD-R when used for audio don't sound anywhere near as crisp as MAM-A's do.

[SCDVD]

Early CD-R discs always had gold reflective layers because of bonding issues which may have let air seep in. However, I'm not sure how much benefit it would have today assuming the bonding is air-tight.

Not true. Only DVD media is bonded. The reflective layer is sandwiched between two layers of polycarbonate plastic. The reflective layer on CD-R media is applied to the top of a single polycarbonate disc. It is protected only by a layer of lacquer. The reason that gold was used in the early days of CD-R media manufacturing was because there were problems developing a silver alloy that resisted oxidation. Gold is much more inert and is much less vulnerable to oxidation. But gold was used for that reason. It does not sound better or perform better than silver. In fact, gold's reflectivity characteristics play poorly or not at all in some players.

Despite the unimpressiveness of Delkin's gold discs, I still maintain that MAM-A silver CD-R are some of the best out there. Great for audio use because of high reflectivity and crisp sound quality. Though for some bizarre reason I have yet to understand, Mitsui/MAM-A discs scan with high error rates when freshly burned, but if you scan them again a couple months later the error rates have dropped considerably to very respectable levels. Verbatim's CD-R when used for audio don't sound anywhere near as crisp as MAM-A's do.

Codswallop! You don't work for these guys do you? Bad discs that heal themselves and get better over time!? What a load! So is the "crisp sound quality." Is "crisp sound" a code word to describe bad media with drop outs caused by a very high BLER (Block error rate)?