Hello all. I'm new here, obviously, and I hope this is the right place for this topic. I'm currently looking to purchase an HD camcorder that can record in 1920x1080. From what I know, I want to get one that records in 1080p so when I play it back on my projector that outputs in 1080p, it will look the best.
I have narrowed my list to 2 models. The Canon HG10 and the Canon HF100.
It was recommended to me to get the HG10 because of the 40GB HDD it has. I currently have the JVC GZ-MG37u with a 30GB HDD. I like having the HDD so I don't have to worry about tapes or anything like that. From what I found on Canons website, it records in 1080/24p and 1080/60i. I'm not too worried about the 24p, mainly because I don't know much about it. I was told that shooting in interlaced isn't good for fast motion as it will turn out all choppy and looks like Legos. =/ I did test out the HG10 at Best Buy and it seemed ok for how it shot. I put it in the best quality mode (I think was 15Mbps, but I could be wrong.) It was ok for shooting and the video playback was pretty good. I did bring my laptop with (MacBook Pro) so I could see how hard it was to get the video onto it and edit it. Everything was pretty straight forward. Once I hooked the camcorder to the laptop, iMovie 08 picked it up right away and imported just fine. I tried recording in both the 24p and the 60i mode. Both looked a little choppy to me. I've been testing with different presets and different encoding to find the best one for the video. If anyone has any insight on that, it would be very helpful.
As for the HF100, it hasn't been released yet. I was thinking of getting it, even though it records to SD cards. Searching Newegg through, I can get a 16GB SD card from PNY for $68. Getting two of them would give me 32GB of total storage which is close to the 40GB that the HG10 has. I figure to go with the 16GB sticks, so I won't have to change them out that often. Again, from what I read on Canons website, the HF100 will record in 1920x1080/24p and 1920x1080/30p. Like I said, from what i read, I should prolly have a camcorder that records in 1080/30p instead of 1080/60i.
My questions for ya'll are as follows:
1. Which of those two would you get if cost of the camcorder wasn't an object? (I work at Best Buy, so I might be able to get a pretty good deal on whatever I buy.)
2. Do you know of any other camcorder, that isn't insanely expensive, that would be better then those two?
3. Both record in AVCHD format. I have heard that is a really bad format. My computer seems to handle it just fine. Why does everyone seem to hate that format?
4. If I go with the HG10, as it record in 60i, is that easily able to be made into a progressive scan format without making the video look like crap?
5. What is the main difference between 60i and 30p?
6. Why would I want to have the 24p Cinema mode on a camera? What would I use that for?
7. Which is better to have in the camcorder: 3CCDs or CMOS?
I think that is all I have for now. If I think of more questions, I'll be sure to ask. Thanks in advance for all the help I'm sure I will get. =)
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Hey all. It has been a week and I have gotten a lot of views, but no responses. I would really like to get some feed back on these two cameras or at least some pointers as to what to look for in a camcorder. Some review sites maybe? I guess I just don't want to spend money on something that I find out another model would be better. Any help would be appreciated. Thanks!
I don't think they make 1080P cams for Consumers
HV20,and HV30 are the most recommended here
I'm sure other forum members will answer all your questions.
Question about the AVCHD.
I've never edited much video so I don't quite understand about this...but would like to find out as I would like to get a new camcorder in the near future...preferably HD with HDD.
How can a video format be 'hard to edit'.
The editing software either supports the format or it doesn't....right?
What makes it 'hard'?...a girl asked me this once also...but let's stick to camcorders
Originally Posted by lordhutt
PS: There is a myth that HDD allows faster transfer to the computer than 1x tape. This is true for professional camcorders at the XDCAM level which have a network OS*, but not for consumer HDD camcorders that stream video data over USB instead of file copy. I'm hearing that HDD->computer transfers from this class of camcorder is closer to 1x than to 2x speed.
* These are seen as a network node and files are packet transfered under the network OS.
Originally Posted by BlackStormBSS
2. Canon HV20 then Canon XH-A1. Panasonic AG-HVX-200 or Sony XDCAM-EX for true LowPro.
3. Lower quality and processing support vs. HDV. This may change in the next few years as computers get faster and chips get better.
4. Yes, depends on software used.
5. 30p has half the motion samples and is progressive. Somewhat jerky.
6. 24p is for the Sundance wannabees and for those interested in releasing on both NTSC and PAL. For others it is a pita.
7. 3 better than one but sensor size matters. For low light one large sensor has advantage. For video quality, 3 sensors have advantage. Pro camcorders have 3 large sensors.
So then as MJA mentioned I assume you recommend one of the Canon over the Sonys?
Are there any hdd based hdv units out there?...or coming in the future?
I glanced at camcorderreview.com and see that the JVC GZ-HD7 does this but they said the video was not that great compared to other HD units.
I just don't really want to bother with tapes anymore...perhaps even if I have to make some sacrifices. I don't know how much actual editing I will do anyway...I still have years of editing to get around to from my last camcorder.
Thanks for the info.
Thanks for the info. I was going through the site this last week and seen that a lot of people seem to like the HV20 and the newer HV30. I was thinking of getting one of them, but I personally don't like the idea of recording to tape. It just seems like a step back to the VHS days. I'm sure technology has come a long way and it just looks fantastic, but my mind, for whatever reason, can't understand the difference between recording on VHS and an HDV / miniDV tape. Any help on that would be great.
Also, if I do go with one that has a tape, what are the benefits to having a camcorder with a tape verses one with SD cards or HDD? From the looks of what edTV said, AVCHD will have a much less video quality then HDV. If that is true, that's not cool. I'm looking for something with awesome video quality. I would prefer something with a HDD so I don't have to change anything.
Also, doesn't having to change the tapes for the HV20 or HV30 get kind of annoying? I mean, the tapes should take up a lot of room. How long can you record onto a tape before you need to change it? How many times can you record over and over on a tape before it degrades the video quality? How long does it take to copy the video from a camcorder to the computer?
Sorry for all the questions, but like I said, I don't wanna buy a camcorder and then find a better one right around the corner for the same price. =)
I hear what you're saying about tape, but AVCHD/flash-based recording isn't there yet. edTV is 100% right on that score. I tried out the Panasonic HDC-SD9 and I was horrified to see how bad the motion artifacts were on a third generation AVCHD camera. My wife normally has a hard time seeing motion artifact issues on cheaper HDTVs, but she noticed how bad it was on the Panasonic...and that's REALLY bad. Also, don't get sold on the whole 3 CCD issue. 3-1/6" CCDs on the Panasonic HDC-SD9 doesn't compare to the 1/2.7" CMOS on the Canon HV20...NOT...EVEN...A...CONTEST. Sorry, boys, but size...and the method of collection matters here.
As for tapes...I had a Sony mini-DV (also tape-based) camera for 4 years and didn't have any dropped frame issues. I only decided to switch out my camera because the LCD was beginning to fail and it was critical for me to know whether or not I was getting a well-lit, color balanced shot.
Take good care of an HDV camcorder and you'll do just as well. I returned my HDC-SD9 camera and got a Canon HV20 on clearance. The difference is night and day, my friend. The Canon HV20 is the king of mainstream HDV-based cameras. Sure, you can spend $3,000 or more to get better, but you can't beat this with anything for the average Joe crowd.
You could also get the Canon HV30, but remember these key points:
1. The HV30 shoots in 24p/30p/60i. The HV20 shoots in 24p/60i. Ok-one more shooting mode. Yippee. Just a side note--edTV is also right on the 24p/30p shooting mode as well. It's not that impressive and it's more for the "artistic" crowd. Shoot in 60i; you'll be fine.
2. The HV30 uses the same sensor as the HV20. Don't expect any major upgrades here.
3. The HV30 is black. The HV20 is silver.
4. The HV30 has a slightly bigger, more "robust" zoom toggle than the HV20. It's not really that bad on the HV20.
...and that's about it for the MAJOR differences. If you're jonesing for the 30p mode, then be my guest and get the HV30. If not, then save $100 or so and get the HV20 before they run out (depending on where you buy). I was able to land an HV20 for $769, so I was pretty pleased.
Just to reiterate your point, yes, it sucks to have to continue to use tapes. But AVCHD recording is abysmal and the results from the Canon HV20/HV30 are awesome. Transfer your footage to DVD and it still looks really good. Once Blu-Ray burning becomes a more cost-effective medium, then it will be better still.
As far as how often you can record on a tape...you'll see various responses, but I would not recommend using a tape more than twice. I have on a Sony camcorder and I was starting to get corruption on a 3rd run. Yep, that still sucks, but that's life.
Flash-based and hard drive based cameras will eventually get there...but not yet."What? Huh?!? WHAT will come out no more?!?" Jack Burton -- BIG TROUBLE IN LITTLE CHINA
No camera in the <$1000 category will have everything you want. I wish there was a camera footage test of the same scene shot with AVCHD and HDV. HDV just looks...better. It's also a heck of a lot easier to edit. If you use Vegas, you'd better buy a Sony AVCHD camera, as another brand's might not import into the Vegas timeline.
it depends how you're going to shoot
if you want studio-like pans, tilts, and zooms without touching the cam, most of those cams won't work because they have no LANC capability (the remote control for start/stop, focus, zoom, etc. on the tripod handle)
if you're just going to handhold and shoot family, friends and vacations casually without any major production in mind, the above cams and even cheaper HDV's will be fine
http://www.camcorderinfo.com runs comparison tests on camcorders, gives decent reviews, and will give narrative comparisons - they also give the Canon HV20/30 top marks. Look at the review for the Panasonic HDC-SD9 (http://www.camcorderinfo.com/content/Panasonic-HDC-SD9-Camcorder-Review-34650/Performance.htm) and see how bad some of the close-ups look and then decide if you're ready to make that kind of sacrifice in favor of convenience."What? Huh?!? WHAT will come out no more?!?" Jack Burton -- BIG TROUBLE IN LITTLE CHINA
You can shoot HDV and record to a hard disk (external) but nobody is making a self contained HDD HDV model currently. Sony sells the HVRDR60 disk but the external market belongs to FOCUS' FireStore line (e.g. FS-4 Pro). As you can see these are currently bulky and expensive.
Sony also makes good HDV camcorders. The HVR-FX1 and Z1U are 1st generation but still make good pictures. The HVR-FX7 is more current. At that level (>$3,000) I prefer the newer Canon XH-A1. All use tape.
So you need to optimize convenience, workflow, bulk and price against post edit picture quality. Your attitude seems similar to most consumers who quickly dismiss potential for a quality result in favor of small size and low price. Later they discover the error of their ways when it is too late. Pros and advanced hobbyists have different priorities and lug the cases and tripods out to the shoot. IMO, the HV20, charger and a few tapes offer the best compromise when travelling light.
We need to create a sticky on the recommended camcorder. The question comes up regularly. I nominate the Great edDV.
Originally Posted by Soopafresh
Notice, too, that the HV30 at 25p (European PAL, I presume) looks great INDOORS. I'd love to see someone replicate that with the HDC-SD9."What? Huh?!? WHAT will come out no more?!?" Jack Burton -- BIG TROUBLE IN LITTLE CHINA
Originally Posted by edDV
Does anyone have any idea why AVCHD is becoming much more prevalent when HDV is clearly superior and just as "recordable" to a hard drive?? Of course, what kills me is that AVCHD is far from "standard" anyway. A Panasonic AVCHD file doesn't read the same way as a Sony or a Canon which makes editing with video software nearly impossible. Sony Vegas will handle Sony footage and, although they claim otherwise, I did not see any support for Panasonic HDC-SD9 footage in either Vegas Pro or Vegas Movie Studio Platinum.
It's almost as if someone threw a roadway flare in the oven and stated, "Don't worry...this will help your turkey cook in 5 minutes." Everybody is gagging on raw turkey while the inventor of the flare is making yummy sounds and telling them how wonderful the turkey tastes."What? Huh?!? WHAT will come out no more?!?" Jack Burton -- BIG TROUBLE IN LITTLE CHINA
A couple more questions.
How about start up time.
Let's say my camera is off. And there is something I want to start filming immediately. How long from the time I hit the power button can I start recording...on either...say the Canon HD20 or the Sony SR12.
How about battery time...once again on both.
How much 'highest quality' video can you get on one tape in the Canon and how much do they cost.
Also, what about the noise recorded from the inner workings of the Canon that I have just read about in a few reviews on Amazon...some of the people say it is terrible.
as mentioned here many times about the avchd editing...here is a guy on youtube that didn't like it much either
Originally Posted by lordhutt
Startup time - approximately 2.5 seconds. Now here's a note of caution for you. Some cameras, like the Panasonic HDC-SD9, claim startup times of 0.6 seconds ONLY IF THE CAMERA IS IN STANDBY MODE. If you do that, then you're sucking juice from the battery to keep the camera at a "near ready" state which is not desirable if you're looking to keep your battery going for awhile.
Battery time with supplied battery (per manual): 115 min. max. Of course, supplied batteries always historically suck (although it's not too bad in this case) - it doesn't matter if it's AVCHD, HDV, or mini-DV. However, you can get the BP-2L14 battery which can record for a maximum of 140 minutes. You can find it for about $50-$60 on Amazon which is a damn sight better than what Best Buy was asking for it back in February ($89).
High quality video time = standard quality video time = 60 minutes on a tape. The only difference is the method of encoding. HD is encoded using MPEG-2 (M2TS - be sure your video editor can accept this) at a rate of 25 Mbps. SD is encoded using DV-AVI at the same bitrate. HD uses more compression, but it's fairly efficient and looks better than AVCHD.
Camera noise - not evident in typical situations where you are recording people talking or if there is other noise present. But if you're recording in an art gallery, then you're going to hear it...just like you've heard it on camcorders for 20 years. On consumer tape-based camcorders, you'll be hard-pressed to find one that doesn't pick up its own noise in a completely quiet environment.
Spending under $1,000 has always meant compromising on something. On AVCHD, it's video quality. On HDV, it's camera noise. On mini-DV cameras, it's resolution (compared to HDV), camera noise, etc. I'm oversimplifying, but you get the general idea.
If you spend the money, you can possibly get software to filter out the camera noise to some degree. Some drawbacks have solutions. For my situation, though, I so rarely film in complete silence...and if it IS supposed to be completely silent, then I remove the audio track from that scene altogether in post using Sony Vegas Pro...or I could lower the audio level significantly, use the audio bus, etc."What? Huh?!? WHAT will come out no more?!?" Jack Burton -- BIG TROUBLE IN LITTLE CHINA
Great reply. I'll add that an external (wired or wireless) mic is required for good vocal recording. The built in mic is for background ambient and will be typical home camcorder quality for recording voices. Something like a camera mounted Rode shotgun may work but better to put a shotgun on a pole for semi-pro sound or mic the talent with wireless.
It should be noted that most consumer camcorders (not the HV20) lack provision fo an external mic or manual audio level controls. AGC audio pumping is the main reason for camera noise to be heard. For the HV20, use manual control and headphones to monitor. Typical pro technique.
Basic film school
Also use a relector to fill light your talent.
Yes, you're right. The Canon HV20 will accept an 3.5 mm external mic source, I believe. For your typical home movie recording, the built-in mic is fine and will do the job. The picture shown above is a somewhat more extreme case of an external mic, but it's certainly a great example of how to get away from camera noise.
If I remember correctly, an external mic will require its own power supply...I don't believe the camera will power it and it's not like you want to, anyway, given that it's doing enough as it is with the camera itself.
Also - another note to mention. The Canon HV20 has a built-in light. It's not great, but it'll light up a subject fairly well at 5 feet away at night. You can also get different lights for the camera that can be placed in the accessory shoe - one runs off the camera battery (VL-3) and the other will accept a battery by itself (VL-10Li II)...yes, true to camcorder accessory fashion, you'll have to get a battery FOR it unless you get the additional battery I mentioned above and use the supplied battery to supply the light by itself.
On a completely unrelated issue, I used to be a huge Sony fan. But Canon has made really huge strides and I think that Sony has been too complacent with its place in the market to take notice until recently. I heard good things about the HV20 from someone who uses Final Cut. I heard good things about the HV20 on www.camcorderinfo.com. There were good, personal experience reviews on Amazon.com as well. There were a couple of negative customer support reviews, but some of them sound a little melodramatic and hardly seem credible. I personally have not come across any customer service issues nor have any of my friends.
I really recommend the Canon HV20 despite its inherent "drawbacks." I don't normally go so far as to endorse a product, but I'm really impressed with the HV20's capabilities for $769."What? Huh?!? WHAT will come out no more?!?" Jack Burton -- BIG TROUBLE IN LITTLE CHINA
Forgot to mention the HV20 even includes a peak reading audio meter in the LCD display that can be left on. You can easily see if someone forgot to turn on their wireless mic. and monitor levels. This camera is well thought out for semipro shooting. Video exposure can be set manually as well.
Originally Posted by edDV"What? Huh?!? WHAT will come out no more?!?" Jack Burton -- BIG TROUBLE IN LITTLE CHINA
[quote="maek"]Originally Posted by lordhutt
If the first frame on your recorded footage shows the stop watching saying 2.5 seconds, I'll be amazed.
I haven't tried this though - maybe my kids just run faster than I think - they're gone by the time the camcorder is actually recording.
I'm hearing that HDD->computer transfers from this class of camcorder is closer to 1x than to 2x speed.
We have a JVC Everio with a 30 GB HD. Getting the video from the camera to a computer is simple matter of hooking the camera up to the computer via USB 2.0 cable and copying the file from the camera's HD to the computer's HD. It only takes a couple of seconds. So it's faster than tape.
Are you doing something different?
If not, your facts are wrong.
Originally Posted by RLT69
PS: Such a file would be approx 9GB in size.
Thank you all for all the help. I think I might go with the Canon HF10 or the HF100, depending on if I want the black finish and the 16GB of internal flash memory or not. www.camcorderinfo.com rated the HF10 as the third best camcorder in overall ratings in the last year. Yes, the HV30 and the HV20 took first and second, respectively. But, the HF10 is the first non-tape camcorder they tested and were impressed with. They said it was the first AVCHD camcorder that didn't suck.
As for the ability to edit AVCHD, I don't think that will be a problem. I have a Macbook Pro and it is a really powerful machine. I edited with some AVCHD files and everything seemed to work fine. I just need to perfect my encoding ability with it as I screwed up my encodes for HD video by limiting it to 2000KBps =/ So yea, the video was horrible after that.
Also, I have a HDD camcorder right now and the file transfer from the HDD to the computer is the same, regardless of file type. 1GB of video is the same as 1GB of music, documents, photos, programs, etc. In my testing, using my Macbook Pro, a Western Digital External Hard Drive with USB, Firewire 400 & 800, and eSATA, and a 7.4 GB DVD rip file. USB transfered at about 1GB/min, Firewire 400 transfered at 1.4GB/min. Firewire 800 and eSATA both transfered at 1.6GB/min. I know the eSATA can't transfer faster then that because the driver needed for a Mac to do that, the company that makes it hasn't updated it in years. =/ As for the Firewire 800, I have no idea why it was just slightly faster then the 400, as it should be roughly twice as fast. =/
Anywho, again, thanks for all the help and information. I am looking to do some more professional shoots with the camcorder, but for now I just want a more consumer type model as I don't have thousands of dollars to toss at a camcorder. But, I know in the future, I will be buying a really nice pro type camcorder, but that won't be for another year or so.
[quote="2Bdecided"]Originally Posted by maek"What? Huh?!? WHAT will come out no more?!?" Jack Burton -- BIG TROUBLE IN LITTLE CHINA
Originally Posted by BlackStormBSS"What? Huh?!? WHAT will come out no more?!?" Jack Burton -- BIG TROUBLE IN LITTLE CHINA