What's up with the lack of hard drive recorders?

[jjmdtw]

Is it just me, or are hard-drive based DVD recorders becoming difficult to find? When I bought mine over 2 years ago, I had many to choose from. Now it seems that there are very few models being made. Someone on another forum commented that a specific Philips unit was one of the last good ones to reach the USA. Another person said something like "the Pioneer 533 has features that you won't in recorders today". What is going on? I've been out of the loop for 2 years, but now my friend is interested in one, so I'm helping him decide.

One requirement is that the HDD is user-replaceable, even if it requires a little hacking. I hate being at the mercy of the manufacturer should the HDD fail. Makes me seriously suggest he builds a MythTV unit.

[Epicurus8a]

Its the principle of "Supply and Demand." The supply is low because the demand is low. I'm glad I bought a couple of 'em.

http://www.netmba.com/econ/micro/supply-demand/

PS: My neighbor wanted one but she can't burn a CD or set her VCR. I'm sure there are a lot of poor souls just like her.

[usually_quiet]

I think that HDD DVD recorders are largely absent from the US because of DVR's, such as TiVo. While TiVo's are also expensive to buy and entail monthly service charges to boot, many people find them easier to use and, I think, more reliable.

At this point, some digital cable providers are offering their own DVR's for rent for as little as $13 (US) a month (that's what the salesperson at Verizon quoted to me a week ago). While this adds up over time, the fact that you don't have to come up with all the money at once is very attractive to some folks.

Although it is usually difficult, if not impossible to copy something from a DVR to DVD, most people don't care about archiving TV and are quite happy having only the ability to time shift programs. I guess that it also makes content providers happy, because time-shifting is all we are really permitted to do under current US law.

[lordsmurf]

I've started to meet people who understand DVR/PVR/Tivo perfectly fine, but show them a DVD recorder and the comment is often "I don't get it". There's some sort of failure to understand how a device can hold a HDD -and- a disc drive that records. The last person said "so you mean it Tivo's to a disc -- how does that work". I just said "nevermind" and walked away. I give up.

We've already confirmed that a minimum of 50 million people here are dumb -- 2004 confirmed it. "Too dumb for DVD recorders" seems to be something to add to the list. (Born and raised, say what I want, bite me.)

I own all the recorders I'll probably ever have to have -- hopefully can repair them if needed. Stupid people are just ruining it for the rest of you that didn't get in early enough. Sorry.

[simplesmn]

I proudly boycott Wal-Mart & Sam's Club.

I SOOOOOO agree. Epi, YOU ROCK!

[jman98]

Almost nobody in the USA that wants a DVD recorder wants to edit video. If you want to edit video, you record to a PC. So there's no real interest in hard disks in DVD recorders.

I've read that sales of all DVD recorders are very poor in the USA and there are fewer available now than a few years ago. Americans just seem to have no interest in anything but DVR/PVR/Tivos for the most part. My 72 year old father uses a DVD recorder (I taught him), but my younger brother has one and uses it as a DVD player. He can probably count on one hand the number of times in over a year of owning it that he has actually used the DVD recorder function. He does have Tivo and ReplayTV, which is all he uses for recording TV.

Many of the manufacturers have abandoned the American market. I'm not saying that they made the best DVD recorders, not by a long shot, but LiteOn had what might have been the easiest to use DVD recorders for non-tech people and they seem to have abandoned the market.

[usually_quiet]

As far as the OP's request for something that allows one to swap out the HDD (and maybe the DVD burner) for off-the-shelf replacements? I haven't heard of any current models that allow that. Maybe an older refurbished recorder would be OK. Other than that, building a media center PC using Myth TV seems like the best option.

Stupid people are just ruining it for the rest of you that didn't get in early enough. Sorry.

If one has no need to save anything one records on a DVD, I don't think it is stupid to buy/rent a device that has no DVD burner, but is easier to use for time shifting, and offers a few added conveniences for organizing recordings. That actually seems like a smart decision to me.

Paying so much more money for ease and convenience? Well maybe that is stupid, but some people have more disposible income than others.

[CrazyCanuck]

Liteon and its clones is a brand (older models) where you can easily replace the drive and/or replace/upgrade the hardrive. The Liteon 5045 and the ILO HD04 can be easily repaired with off-the-shelf drives and HDDs. Because the OS was designed a few years ago, disc drive compatibility is becoming an issue with these models.

I own 4 HD04s (originally stocked with Liteon 411 drives and 80GB HDDs). They've all been upgraded, 2 at 250GB, 1 at 200 and the last one at 160, all have new drives in them, Liteon 160, 165, 20A1P and a Sony 120. The Sony (Liteon clone) is fully compatible, the 3 Liteons on playback will not FF DVD+-Rs or commercial DVDs otherwise they do everything else, Liteon drives models 1693 and lower are fully compatible but almost impossible to find anymore. Glad I came on board in early 2005.

I have both, a dual tuner PVR and HDD recorders. In Canada, in my area, you own your PVR, no monthly fee for the first one, $2 monthly per additional units, stiff competition between telecommunication and cable providers.

I've notice that I don't use my recorders to record TV anymore, unless I see a need to record 3 shows at the same time which I haven't encountered yet with timeshifting cable so the HDD recorders have become archivers only, I'll record commercial-free movies on the PVR then send the PVR's S-Video output in real time to my HDD recorder, edit and archive the movie on disc.

PVRs are great for users that only watch-and-erase, myself, I will always have both, hopefull that there is going to be a new generation of High Def. HDD/Disc recorders, looking forward to that.

[Seeker47]

I've started to meet people who understand DVR/PVR/Tivo perfectly fine, but show them a DVD recorder and the comment is often "I don't get it". There's some sort of failure to understand how a device can hold a HDD -and- a disc drive that records. The last person said "so you mean it Tivo's to a disc -- how does that work". I just said "nevermind" and walked away. I give up.

We've already confirmed that a minimum of 50 million people here are dumb -- 2004 confirmed it. "Too dumb for DVD recorders" seems to be something to add to the list. (Born and raised, say what I want, bite me.)

I own all the recorders I'll probably ever have to have -- hopefully can repair them if needed. Stupid people are just ruining it for the rest of you that didn't get in early enough. Sorry.

Yep -- the perpetual "blinking 12:00" phenomenon. (Never just confined to VCRs, by the way.) The funny thing is that I consider the Pioneer DVDR models I've used to be noticeably quicker to learn, easier to use, and more reliable than several high-end VCRs (or even some of the better mid-level ones) that I've used. It sure ain't rocket science ! I think Pioneer gave anyone -- including Lite-On -- stiff competition in user accessibility. The manuals were quite good too. Can't see how something like basic video editing directly on a piece of hardware (remove commercials, change titles, Chapters, Thumbnails) can ever get any easier than this, until some distant "Jetsons" day when you might have moron-proof, advanced AI, voice-command controlled appliances. [Pause for a moment, while I break into fits of uncontrollable laughter. My car has one of those voice-controlled Nav units, supposedly one of the better ones. I speak with excellent diction, no speech impediment, no accent. When I give the voice command "AM Radio", the Nav usually responds "Now showing Italian restaurants." Yeah, right. Thanks a bunch !]

Don't get me wrong -- I'm as lazy as anyone here. I HATE having to learn new programs . . . which is why I haven't dived into stuff like DVD-Lab. But all you need is a little bit of motivation, a problem you need or really want to solve: it can work wonders ! With the DVDRs, I do all the usual Tivo timeshifting stuff, plus a helluva lot of archiving -- mostly movies. I use 'em almost every day. That was plenty of motivation to learn how to use the DVDRs, and it wasn't particularly difficult. But bottom line is, I agree with what you said.

Of course, the downside now is that various family members and friends bug me to record things for them all the time. (Maybe that has also happened for the others of you who did not skip or miss the brief DVDR revolution ?) At this rate, I may burn those units out all too quickly.

[jjmdtw]

I've started to meet people who understand DVR/PVR/Tivo perfectly fine, but show them a DVD recorder and the comment is often "I don't get it". There's some sort of failure to understand how a device can hold a HDD -and- a disc drive that records. The last person said "so you mean it Tivo's to a disc -- how does that work". I just said "nevermind" and walked away. I give up.

We've already confirmed that a minimum of 50 million people here are dumb -- 2004 confirmed it. "Too dumb for DVD recorders" seems to be something to add to the list. (Born and raised, say what I want, bite me.)

I have a saying I like: "At least ___% of the population is completely clueless". I think the fill in the blank value is easily 50%, but you decide. And yes, I agree that at least 50 million people in the US are dumb. Totally agree.

I also understand the law of supply and demand, but I also assumed (wrongly) that people would want DVRs, and would be able to use them. I mean, I think it's so much better and easier to use than a VCR. Again, I overestimate the general public.

I think I'll be studying MythTV. Nothing like do-it-yourself. At least I can fix it if it breaks.

[victoriabears]

The UK once had the biggest uptake of vcr's in the world, so may be the quality of TV is a factor.

Also, the availability of shows on dvd soon after the season finishes, with no commercials, must affect peoples desire to archive.

[Epicurus8a]

...the availability of shows on dvd soon after the season finishes, with no commercials, must affect peoples desire to archive.

Very true!

[simplesmn]

I've started to meet people who understand DVR/PVR/Tivo perfectly fine, but show them a DVD recorder and the comment is often "I don't get it". There's some sort of failure to understand how a device can hold a HDD -and- a disc drive that records. The last person said "so you mean it Tivo's to a disc -- how does that work". I just said "nevermind" and walked away. I give up.

We've already confirmed that a minimum of 50 million people here are dumb -- 2004 confirmed it. "Too dumb for DVD recorders" seems to be something to add to the list. (Born and raised, say what I want, bite me.)

I have a saying I like: "At least ___% of the population is completely clueless". I think the fill in the blank value is easily 50%, but you decide. And yes, I agree that at least 50 million people in the US are dumb. Totally agree.

I also understand the law of supply and demand, but I also assumed (wrongly) that people would want DVRs, and would be able to use them. I mean, I think it's so much better and easier to use than a VCR. Again, I overestimate the general public.

I think I'll be studying MythTV. Nothing like do-it-yourself. At least I can fix it if it breaks.

I have a saying too..... "NEVER UNDERESTIMATE THE STUPIDITY OF OTHER PEOPLE", BWWAAAAAHAAHAAAAAAAA

(People in general, those that frequent forums like this are generally a cut above) : )

[speedyoct1958]

I have also wondered about this Topic as I like "time-shift watching" and am a "watch & erase" person. I still have a STACK of VHS tapes from when I was an OTR driver and VHS was easier to watch in the truck. What was fun was when I needed to call my 80 yr old parents and talk them thru a VCR program change over the phone. I LOVE my Parents! Which means the only 'smart but dumb' people are those who do not 'WANT' to learn.
Now, my answer theory:

1. Analog TV tuners - EveryOne knows about this.

http://blog.washingtonpost.com/fasterforward/2007/03/a_digital_deadline_dawns.html
[i]
A Digital Deadline Dawns
By Rob Pegoraro | March 1, 2007; 4:40 PM ET

You wouldn't necessarily know this from the news or what you see in stores, but analog TV tuners have now earned the status of contraband goods.

Starting today, all television sets with screens bigger than 13 inches--plus anything else that can pull in a TV signal off the air, from VCRs to digital video recorders--must include a digital-TV tuner, not just analog equipment. The Federal Communications Commission set this requirement (PDF)[http://hraunfoss.fcc.gov/edocs_public/attachmatch/FCC-05-190A1.pdf] in a November 2005 vote.

But that doesn't mean that you can walk into any store and grab a TV or DVD recorder with a digital tuner (sometimes called an "ATSC tuner," after the industry group that developed the DTV specification). You're more likely to have a hard time just finding the sets with digital tuners.

[i]

2. TiVo

http://findarticles.com/p/articles/mi_m0DIZ/is_51_13/ai_81465743
Cable World, Dec 17, 2001 by Andrea Figler
PVR war turns ugly as SonicBlue sues TiVo: amid bickering over patent, one operator pushes network technology - Personal Video Recorders
The battle has intensified over control of personal video recorder technology, and the fight over critical patents may determine how soon and how vigorously cable operators promote stand-alone or set-top-box-based PVRs to subscribers.
The latest move in the growing conflict came Dec. 12 when SonicBlue--which bought PVR innovator ReplayTV earlier this year--sued its rival, industry leader TiVo, in U.S. District Court in San Jose, Calif. The lawsuit alleges that TiVo infringed on a patent granted Nov. 27 that gives ReplayTV exclusive rights to technology that enables viewers to select which TV shows they want to record on a PVR from a program guide--a basic function used by most PVR companies.

3. TiVo - Wants to rule over PVR

http://www.law.com/jsp/article.jsp?id=1201779834291
Zusha Elinson of "The Recorder", February 1, 2008

TiVo Wins Injunction in Patent Fight
Since the 'eBay' ruling, injunctions have been harder to come by....

The U.S. Court of Appeals for the Federal Circuit proved Thursday that it still grants influential injunctions in patent fights.
The court upheld TiVo's claims that Dish Network infringed on a patent used in its digital-video recording technology. The decision triggered a permanent injunction against Dish Network and a $94 million damage award.

The two have been squabbling since 2004 over a TiVo patent used in technology that allows viewers to record, fast-forward and rewind television programs. In November, the so-called "time warp" patent withstood a U.S. Patent and Trademark Office re-examination requested by Dish.

See also:
http://www.time.com/time/business/article/0,8599,1723583,00.html

A third win for TiVo will boost the DVR pioneer's negotiating power in licensing deals with cable and satellite TV providers. TiVo already has signed agreements with Comcast Corp. and Cox Communications Inc.

Satellite TV provider DirecTV Group Inc. will pay TiVo royalties through 2010, though it no longer sells TiVo-based boxes, having opted for its own DVR.

OR

http://www.oregonlive.com/newsflash/index.ssf?/base/business-14/120580164583540.xml&st...ist=technology

Dish Network reopens TiVo patent dispute
3/17/2008, 5:47 p.m. PDT
By AMANDA FEHD (The Associated Press)

I do NOT believe that any PVR manufacter wants to make many units until this TIVO dispute is settled.
But TIVO should NOT have so much power over this tech either.
And even if I had the money to record every show to a DVD, Why? So, I can have a stack of Disc laying around too? Not all the shows are worth watching more than once. I can record 3 channels and watch 2 more at the same time.
Plus I do NOT want to have my video equipment able to 'phone home' or pay money to TIVO. I have cable TV, but NO "cable box" and do not want to pay any more than I have to pay "COMCASTIC".
Digital only-analog dooms day=mar2009.

IMOP- people that put down others are like the drivers who expect everyone else on the road to "GET OUT OF THEIR WAY" because no one else can drive as good.

[KeepItSimple]

Philips 3575 = free "tivo"

[handyguy]

Philips 3575 = free "tivo"

But no TV Guide function. Other recorders have one.

Sure are a lot of 'what happened to hd dvd recorder' topics.

[jjeff]

And if you're OTA only, just one response.
Echostar TR-50
If or when it ever comes out