VCR buying guide (S-VHS / D-VHS / Professional)

[RedRaider]

My Mitsubishi HS-HD200U is serving me well.

I don't where you are getting your I formation from that the JVC D-VHS are better, they are the same. LOL

[orsetto]

There's no appreciable performance difference between the (amazingly) numerous JVC DVHS models. The primary reason they have so many models is that there was a heat/power supply issue they found hard to lick, it took quite a few revisions. Because JVC refused to give up on their doomed "DVHS THEATER" pre-recorded tape idea, their DVHS recorders are all saddled with (unnecessary for most users) additional analog-digital-analog converters. These generate a lot of heat. When looking at the oldest second-hand JVC DVHS models, the 30000 and 40000, be sure to ask if there have been any shutdown or image degradation problems before buying. Try to buy from a local seller who will allow you to examine the unit before paying, or who offers a return guarantee of at least a week. New-in-box more recent models sold by authorized dealers like B&H have had these issues addressed, and would be the best choice if you want a JVC.

Contrary to a few picayune types here who conducted pixel-peeping tests, the Mitsubishi HS-HD2000U DVHS is NOT "inferior" to the JVC. It depends on how you're comparing. They use essentially identical TBC, DNR and jitter control circuits with the same interface and effects. In certain systems, the JVC can provide slightly better playback- but the difference is small in the real world and most people connecting the VCR to a Pioneer 560 would be hard-pressed to tell the difference. Those who say the Mitsubishi "sucks" are almost always using it to feed a PC authoring station with all manner of processing and enhancement options. With this setup, the Mitsubishi signal apparently interacts more poorly than the feed from a JVC. But again, its a fine distinction and not everyone thinks its "horrible": it depends on your particular encoder board and how carried away you get with exacting "restoration". Familiarity is also a factor: many who think the JVC is distinctly better have been using older JVCs for many years, and have an established workflow that produces great results for them. When they swap in a Mitsubishi to "compare", its slight differences throw off all their carefully contrived settings.

If you're simply connecting a VCR to a dvd recorder to dub the typical VHS library, the Mitsubishi has some advantages over the JVC. It is not burdened with the now-pointless "DVHS THEATER" trappings, making it a much cleaner and more reliable electronic design. There are no known issues with power supply overheating. Its tape mechanics are superior. The remote is better. And its usually cheaper second hand, about $150 these days. If buying new, the JVC is more attractive given comparable pricing. Second hand, go for the Mitsubishi: its a better risk/value proposition.

[thorhakk]

A rather mint Mitsubishi HS-HD2000U sold on eBay this morning for $200 after shipping. Here's hoping I didn't need it. And that's why I'm here; to ask what I need, if anyone will indulge me.

To start, I am tech-illiterate concerning home theatre setups and stuffs. So, no obligation to get overly-complicated. Basically, I want a VCR with great playback (video and audio). I am aware VHS format cannot be upconverted, I think.. but if it'd work with an HDTV, that's what I want. Also, I'd like to record from the TV. I do not have a cable box, and I don't know how to go about this. And converting a VHS to DVD would be a plus, or maybe simply the ability to record to DVD, like a dual-system or something.

Am I looking at mid-line or something that's hardly available? All replies are welcome! I can't wait to watch the glory of VHS Star Wars! Thanks!!

[victoriabears]

I am not too sure that VHS is not up converted by the TV?,,my good VHS's look good on my 46 inch Sony LCD TV

[jagabo]

I am aware VHS format cannot be upconverted

Any video can be upconverted. The question is how good will the result be? VHS will not look great (compared to real HD material, or even decent DVD sources) under any circumstance.

I am not too sure that VHS is not up converted by the TV?,,my good VHS's look good on my 46 inch Sony LCD TV

All HDTVs upconvert standard definition inputs to their native resolution.

[robjv1]

Contrary to a few picayune types here who conducted pixel-peeping tests, the Mitsubishi HS-HD2000U DVHS is NOT "inferior" to the JVC. It depends on how you're comparing. They use essentially identical TBC, DNR and jitter control circuits with the same interface and effects. In certain systems, the JVC can provide slightly better playback- but the difference is small in the real world and most people connecting the VCR to a Pioneer 560 would be hard-pressed to tell the difference. Those who say the Mitsubishi "sucks" are almost always using it to feed a PC authoring station with all manner of processing and enhancement options. With this setup, the Mitsubishi signal apparently interacts more poorly than the feed from a JVC. But again, its a fine distinction and not everyone thinks its "horrible": it depends on your particular encoder board and how carried away you get with exacting "restoration". Familiarity is also a factor: many who think the JVC is distinctly better have been using older JVCs for many years, and have an established workflow that produces great results for them. When they swap in a Mitsubishi to "compare", its slight differences throw off all their carefully contrived settings.

That's interesting -- I guess I missed that discussion because I thought for all intents and purposes that they performed nearly identical when in full working condition.

[orsetto]

It was quite awhile ago, robjv1, I don't remember the name of the thread but there was one in particular with screen caps making the Mitsu seem somewhat inferior to the JVC. To me the difference looked more like sample variation or interactions with attached hardware, not some systemic flaw in in the Mitsubishi. Personally I've come to prefer the AG1980 over time, because its specific "flavor" seems to match up with more of my tapes, thus requiring less fuss. Both Mitsu and JVC can come across as excessively creamy with some material, to my eyes, while others here vastly prefer that presentation. These impressions are very personal, which is why we cannot categorically tell someone "oh yes, absolutely, go buy the first broken down beat-to-death circa 1986 JVC you can find, you'll love it!" They might not, necessarily, just as they might be disappointed in an AG1980 if it proves a poor match for their specific tapes. With the Panasonic and older JVC SVHS models, you also have to contend with never really knowing what you'll get, because these are used (if not abused) models no longer available new. For many just now starting a tape dubbing project, opting for a brand new Mitsu or JVC DVHS model will considerably up the odds of getting a VCR that meets its specs.

As noted previously, the wild card in all this is the rare super-ultra-deluxe JVC WVHS analog HDTV vcrs, owned by you and a handful of others here. In mechanics and video processing, these are noticeably superior to the AG1980, the Mitsu, or any other JVC. As well they should be, with their original $4,995 pricetags.

[orsetto]

thorhakk, what you want doesn't really exist. No VCRs have been made that take advantage of modern HDTV connections or improvements, like HDMI or upconverting on the VCR side. They all work the same as the old days: S-video or RCA composite a/v connections only (your TV does its own "upconversion"). Most TVs do not let you "record off them": if you insist on actually recording off-air broadcasts with a VCR today, you'll need an accessory tuner box for ATSC digital signals. In the USA there were many available a couple years ago, don't hear about them so much anymore but you can find models like Zenith DTT-901 on sites like eBay. The DVD/VHS combo recorders are all poorly designed and none will record from their tuners onto VHS, only DVD. VHS as a recording format is dead and over, long time already: there were only a few JVC DVHS units made with a modern ATSC tuner built-in. Most JVC DVHS do not have ATSC tuners, nor does the Mitsu 2000. Today they are practical and useful primarily as players, not recorders. (If you feel the "Star Wars" trilogy in VHS is "glorious", do you mean because they're the original non-updated versions? You don't have to be stuck with VHS for that, the same versions are available on the bonus DVDs included in the two-disc anniversary editions a few years ago.)

The JVC and Mitsubishi DVHS offered full HDTV recording/playback within limited circumstances and limited source equipment, using very expensive DVHS tapes. When not used in DVHS mode, the JVCs and Mitsus simply become high quality standard VCRs for ordinary VHS/SVHS, connected and used the same as if it were 1997. They are excellent source decks for dubbing old analog tapes to DVD or a hard drive. The DVHS units were the last of the expensive, well-made TBC/DNR-equipped VCRs: far more recent than the legendary Panasonic and JVC svhs models covered elsewhere in this thread. This makes them a good alternative for those without the patience to deal with unpleasant surprises common in most other second-hand VCR purchases.

[Gibson's Squares]

A quick question about JVC model numbers - does EK at the end generally indicate European/PAL models?

[CAnn12]

Looking for some help. I have about 20 old VHSs that I put family videos onto (21 years old). I didn't know any better at the time and transferred all the video from our camcorder to VHS using EP. I also have a huge number of actual 8mm video tapes (of which I had planned to put to VHS but never got a round to it). I want to put these all to DVD to preserve them. I have been searching and have read a lot of info. This forum has been very helpful. I want to start with the VHS tapes as they are the oldest (1989+) I viewed some of the old VHS tapes, the color is okay, but a number of them has the distortion, noise, poor tracking (not too sure what you'd call it) at the bottom of the frame.

At first I thought that I would use my Sony camcorder which has a pass through and transfer the file to my computer through a firewire into DV-avi and edit with vegas and then burn to a DVD. My VCR is an old model that I have had for about 21 years. It is a Hitachi hifi UX 625 consumer model (cost a lot back then). I also have a newer (but still old) JVC hifi HR-A590U (again consumer model). I want to try to get the best quality that I can. At first I was considering buying canapus 110, or possibly a TBC or a VCR with a TBC. As you can see I do not know which route to go. As I don't mind spending some money, I am not going into the business of restoring VHF tapes so the spending of $400+ is not doable. Should I just try to get a good S-VHS (NTSC) proconsumer deck or a "newer" VCR or both? What is my best route? I have been looking on E-bay for some of the recommended decks or should I purchase a stand alone TBC i.e. the AVToolbox AVT-8710/data Video TBC-1000? As you can see, I do not have a lot of background knowledge about this; however, once I know what direction to take, I will be able to take it from there. Just need advice. Hoping someone can point me in the right direction.

[lordsmurf]

about 20 old VHSs

It may be wiser to simply pay a service to do a good job, for about the same budget. Otherwise you'll spend lots of time learning equipment you won't need long-term, and then be stuck reselling it. All the while, you may still do a bad conversion job, not having experience at it. Plus there's the issue of not all tapes wanting to coopreate, which is why most good services have many multiples of VCRs to work with.

Are you sure you still want to go it alone?

[lordsmurf]

A quick question about JVC model numbers - does EK at the end generally indicate European/PAL models?

Yes. EK = PAL.
I believe the "E" actually means "Europe" although I could be mistaken.

[CAnn12]

Hmm Thank-you Lordsmuf for thoses suggestions. My problem is that 1 have to edit a lot of the tapes and would like to add a few captions, put in music in spots taht need it (like watching the kids water ski), create a menu, make copies for each of my 3 children and create an ISO for futiure preservation. I would just like some advice as to how to go about it; that being said, I will check around to see if I can find a "good" company that can do it and include all that I want. I am just afraid that I could end up with a company who is just using a vcr-dvd combo unit and copying. If that is all there is to it, I could buy one, but I would not get what I am looking for. Any comments on what to ask a company to let me know that are actually professionals at it and not some "hey we can do this" company? Thanks for any suggestions or advice.

[jodex]

I have been reading these forums and see no mention of:

Sony WV-DR5 (not popular, missing features, only VHS)
Sony WV-DR7 (most popular out of the 3, has more features than dr5, but doesnt include some features of dr9 which are mostly ergonomic in nature)
Sony WV-DR9 (a higher end model of the dr7, not popular since features are mostly asthetic)

These units are direct competators to the JVC SR-VS10, JVC SR-VS20, JVC SR-VS30.

The DR7 is the most popular, which has R2 (reality regenerator...its basically a dynamic unsharp mask), tbc, 3d dnr. I'm actually going to sell mine for about 800 soon on ebay since its just gathering dust at this point.

The JVC units will only take miniDV tapes, while the sony units will take both DV and miniDV tapes.

This unit also has bugs, which work in your favor:
It wont dub copy protected tapes with macrovision or write protected tapes......but, if you put in a blank first and then put in a protect tape, it will strip out and digitize everything.
Also, this thing says 100v @ 50/60hz, but the internal transformer range up to 160v, so no transformer needed.




If im not mistaken, DNR circuit on vcrs is attached to the tuner, so it only works when recording. Not much help during playback. You can generally do better with software like neatvideo.


Also, I'm trying to get a:

JVC SR-VS30, or JVC SR-VS20, or JVC SR-VS10

from the PAL region, if anyone knows of someone that wants sell theirs, give me a PM.
I believe the part number are suffixed E/EK for pal regions.

[lordsmurf]

I have been reading these forums and see no mention of:
missing features, only VHS)
doesnt include some features of dr9 which are mostly ergonomic in nature)
features are mostly asthetic)

This thread is for feature-rich quality VCRs, not generic feature-less crappy ones.

These units are direct competators to the JVC SR-VS10, JVC SR-VS20, JVC SR-VS30.

I disagree. These are high end Professional S-VHS + DV VCRs.
Not much of a competition.

If im not mistaken, DNR circuit on vcrs is attached to the tuner, so it only works when recording. .

You are mistaken.

[NJRoadfan]

I have been reading these forums and see no mention of:

Sony WV-DR5 (not popular, missing features, only VHS)
Sony WV-DR7 (most popular out of the 3, has more features than dr5, but doesnt include some features of dr9 which are mostly ergonomic in nature)
Sony WV-DR9 (a higher end model of the dr7, not popular since features are mostly asthetic)

These units were only sold in Japan. It would be costly to import them to the US and buttons/menus are in Japanese. Running a 100VAC product on 120VAC will work for awhile, but the power supply will eventually overheat and fail from the higher input voltage. Good luck finding a replacement.

[jodex]

This thread is for feature-rich quality VCRs, not generic feature-less crappy ones.

Wow, thanks for the warm welcome (sarcastic)
If this were true, that how come you have "generic feature-less crappy VCRs in your first post" ?...NO-TBC !!??, i mean really, that should be the first indicator that its "generic feature-less".

And D-VHS, thats "generic feature-less" by definition.

I disagree. These are high end Professional S-VHS + DV VCRs. Not much of a competition.

These are absolutely not professional, and far from high end. The JVC and Sony units are direct compentators since they are in the same price range and with the same features, although the DR7 has a bit more features.
A professional vcr has frame accurate indexing, neither the JVC or Sony units have that in the vhs side. The best these units can do is 3-5 frames for accuracy or worse, and thats by playing with the editing features and estimating, they dont actually have a frame readout.

A professional DV+SVHS, in fact, the only professional DV+SVHS deck is the JVC BR-D51U with an optional A/D board.
In fact, there are 2 levels above that, reel-2-reel and reel-2-reel with ATM head---and these have no features outside of having the ability to dump the entire tape into a raw file. The ATM head has better quality, and has the ability to nullify any degradation to date (except a degauss), and the ability to look at data that was recorded over.

If im not mistaken, DNR circuit on vcrs is attached to the tuner, so it only works when recording. .

You are mistaken.[/QUOTE]
Check your wiring diagram for some of these VCRs, NR I/O is attached to the RF modulator, the other outputs are straight with nothing.

[jodex]

These units were only sold in Japan. It would be costly to import them to the US and buttons/menus are in Japanese. Running a 100VAC product on 120VAC will work for awhile, but the power supply will eventually overheat and fail from the higher input voltage. Good luck finding a replacement.

They are not costly to import, especially if you know what forms to fill out and use a good carrier. The customs fee is 3% by the way.

I dont think you actually read my post. It says 100v 50/60hz. Again, restating. The PSU inside is rated for 160V (yes, i took it apart). It will never overheat on 120v. This was done to compensate for its ability to switch to 50hz, as half of japan runs on that. Electronics operating on 50hz last a shorter amount of time, wikipedia Nikolai Tesla. A more robust PSU is added to compensate for this. So again, this will never overheat, it has active cooling too.

As for replacement parts for this VCR, you can pretty much attach it to a lab DC invertor, set it to 18V and the vcr will operate with no problem. VCRs, like cars, use common parts internally (as in, the same exact parts). Interestingly, US Sony repair centers do have the replacement part available and its even available online from 3rd part facilities.

Hell, the difference between the JVC SR-VS30, VS30U and VS30EK is firmware and PSU. You can take the PSU from VS30U and stuff in a VS30EK, or just put EK firmware on a 30U. The power frequency is NOT used to generate the video signal. Parts are interchangeable, and even in TVs. For example, a european bulb for a project "sold in the USA" will last a very long time. I can't say how long, because the bulbs made for the US/JP market only lasted 1.5-2 years, while the one I got from europe has been running 6 years. I have to keep resetting the timer on the TV. The bulb was built for 50hz, nuff said. It pays off to be an engineer.

[lordsmurf]

Wow, thanks for the warm welcome

Sorry, but I'm just not friendly towards misinformation.

And D-VHS, thats "generic feature-less" by definition.

No. You've clearly never used one if this is your opinion.

direct compentators since they are in the same price range and with the same features

Fallacy logic.

A professional vcr has frame accurate indexing

Not important for capturing.

Check your wiring diagram for some of these VCRs, NR I/O is attached to the RF modulator, the other outputs are straight with nothing.

Then your diagrams are wrong.

[jodex]

Sorry, but I'm just not friendly towards misinformation.

Wow, I guess you don't know what sarcasm is, at least try to quote my entire posts if your going to be a flamer.

No. You've clearly never used one if this is your opinion.

MPEG2 isnt professional, DVHS is on the same level DVD/VHS combo decks. Clearly, you dont understand what a professional VCR is. The closest a DVHS system is going to come to any of the decks I've mentioned is if you solder a lead to the SDI lines between the transport control and MPEG2 encoder.....before the signal turns to mush.

Fallacy logic

And your logic is.......

Not important for capturing.

Actually, if you've ever restored video, it is. Your playing back all the frames on the tape instead of some, which is why a TBC is needed to correct estimation errors in consumer in inaccurate VCRs. A fully accurate transport wouldnt need a tbc, but most people can afford something like that, since its usually custom made.

Then your diagrams are wrong.

They are not my diagrams, they are the manufacturer's diagrams. If your so full of yourself, you should contact JVC, Sony, and Panasonic's engineers and tell them this.

[NJRoadfan]

MPEG2 isnt professional, DVHS is on the same level DVD/VHS combo decks. Clearly, you dont understand what a professional VCR is. The closest a DVHS system is going to come to any of the decks I've mentioned is if you solder a lead to the SDI lines between the transport control and MPEG2 encoder.....before the signal turns to mush.

MPEG2 is well established in the professional sector, particularly for field work. HDV is one example. AVC/MPEG4 is the new kid on the block, but the professional video industry isn't known to jump on new stuff very quickly (this is not a bad thing!). In-studio work is usually in an intra-frame format like DVCPRO/DVCAM.

Actually, if you've ever restored video, it is. Your playing back all the frames on the tape instead of some, which is why a TBC is needed to correct estimation errors in consumer in inaccurate VCRs. A fully accurate transport wouldnt need a tbc, but most people can afford something like that, since its usually custom made.

The VCR is playing back all the frames on the tape. Even professional VTRs require a TBC to correct jitter caused by the transport mechanics.

Frame accuracy is only important when doing linear editing between 2 VTRs. If I mark in and mark out edit points at hh:mm:ss:ff, the VTR will record that exact range when I execute an assemble edit. Consumer level VCRs generally only count hh:mm:ss because such accuracy isn't important when doing time shifting or simple dubbing.

[jodex]

MPEG2 is well established in the professional sector, particularly for field work. HDV is one example. AVC/MPEG4 is the new kid on the block, but the professional video industry isn't known to jump on new stuff very quickly (this is not a bad thing!). In-studio work is usually in an intra-frame format like DVCPRO/DVCAM.

There are several variations of MPEG2. While it is true, that MPEG2 is pretty much the standard for HD capture, it is generally a special type of codec implementing 422 compression. This is far from the garage sale DVHS vcr, and mid way from HDV. Many studios have restriction on how much material can actually be in HDV, usually around 10-25%. DVHS vcrs dont output the material you want because the studios said no, you have to solder in a sdi board before the signal reaches the MPEG2 encoder. You obviously wont be playing back DVHS tapes.

The VCR is playing back all the frames on the tape. Even professional VTRs require a TBC to correct jitter caused by the transport mechanics.

Frame accuracy is only important when doing linear editing between 2 VTRs. If I mark in and mark out edit points at hh:mms:ff, the VTR will record that exact range when I execute an assemble edit. Consumer level VCRs generally only count hh:mms because such accuracy isn't important when doing time shifting or simple dubbing.

The problem is the jitter is caused by moving parts and their tolerances, a buffer is used for frame, or half frames, since this hardware is for interlaced signals. If your familiar with registers, a frame is shifted in and then shifted out to the destination, whether a modulator or an AD, in fact the buffer can be the AD. As much as 5 frames per second can be dropped out and your would would hardly know it unless you tested on other VCRs with differrent amount of heads, head sizes, and just age, The drop is spaced out even across the second. IN newer vcr, that have digital components, motion compensation took care of the gaps, in older vcr, the resonance in the buffer took care of the problem. VHS, interesingly, has an index signal with framecount, and leadin-leadout and other digital metadata that can be encoded into the tape. Few VCRs will allow you to look at this data, but its there and generally used to match drum speed to tape. You can actually use it like a turing machine or a dvd in some of the better machines to actually have the vcr track to a marker. The TOC is at the beginning, and if the tape is rewound all the way or at the start of the recording, then the vcr will read this TOC into its memory and you will be able to pull it up on the OSD. The DR7 keeps for example 4 tapes in memory, the DR9 keeps more. Downside is obviously when you unplug the vcr. Anyways, as the transport becomes more precise, the less actual correction is done by a TBC and the closer you get to what was actually recorded on the tape. Reel-to-reel systems, for example, dont have tbcs at all, since your actally pulling the vhs tape in as a raw file, and you can actually apply a mask to alias the raw signal to frames. Any shift can be detected an compensated for, or split. Add DNR to that, it kind of funny to read in english, use dnr when transferring tapes recorded from camcorders, and in the japanese, dont use dnr, it will make your video look blocky. The blockiness does have truth when looking at video from a vectorscope. Your better off using a temporal noise reduction, which will basically create noise mask across your footage and use that to filter the noise. It alot better than trusting the ghost-in-the-machine. Other pro-line features generally include an extended set of I/O ports, such as SDI with an optional board on the JVC BR-D51U.

[lordsmurf]

if your going to be a flamer.

English mistakes notwithstanding, YOU'RE the one who came here and started to post asinine misinformation. I started this thread years and years to educate and help others with capturing (and hardware-side restoration), and I feel obligated to nuke BS when I see it. So far, almost everything you've posted is misleading at best.

MPEG2 isnt professional

This isn't even remotely true. Again, your information is wildly inaccurate. And you most definitely DO NOT work in any professional video production environment if this is your belief.

DVHS is on the same level DVD/VHS combo decks.

Again, misleading at best. While D-VHS was aimed partially at the high-end consumer, it came with a good number of professional features, and is why the machine has been so highly regarded by video professionals that have to suffer through the crap format known as VHS.

Clearly, you dont understand what a professional VCR is.

No, YOU are the one that doesn't seem to understand what is and is not "professional" for VHS, S-VHS and D-VHS use.

the SDI

SDI is really not necessary for VHS or S-VHS. It's also a wasted conversation on a hobby site like this one.

Your playing back all the frames on the tape instead of some

Frames get dropped for a reason. The only time you'd need to anal-retentive force every frame into view is for forensic work. And even then, not really. (Whole difference conversation that is WAY beyond the comprehension of 99.999% of the people at this site.)

A fully accurate transport

Can still drop frames.

They are not my diagrams, they are the manufacturer's diagrams. If your so full of yourself, you should contact JVC, Sony, and Panasonic's engineers and tell them this.

I think you'd be surprised how often the documentation from manufacturers, as distributed to the public, is massively screwed up. When something obviously works different than a diagram shows, it's quite clear that the diagram is wrong. That is 100% the case, when it comes to DNR from JVC VCRs. Most of this stuff wasn't in English to begin with. Are you reading Japanese, Russian, German, Chinese, etc originals? (Possibly with handwritten notations and corrections.)

It pays off to be an engineer.

And sometimes it doesn't. This is one of those times. With all due respect, you may know why something works, possibly even how to build one -- but it does not mean you understand video. "On paper" and "reality" rarely meet, when it comes to video. Some of us are very well versed in the technical, and you won't be able to bamboozle us with techno-talk. I hate to come off as an ass, but I hate to see people be misled. And your posts so far a mix of deflection, misleads and incorrect information.

[jodex]

English mistakes notwithstanding, YOU'RE the one who came here and started to post asinine misinformation. I started this thread years and years to educate and help others with capturing (and hardware-side restoration), and I feel obligated to nuke BS when I see it. So far, almost everything you've posted is misleading at best.

You're the one that started this post with asinine information, why be a hypocrite.

The 7000-series has 2MB TBC RAM, 9000-series has 4MB and uses the Dynamic Drum system.

Why did you post these "generic feature-less crappy" decks, what makes them so better than my the Sony DR5-7 post

• JVC HR-S5000U (no TBC, older)
• JVC HR-S5800U (no TBC, older)
• JVC HR-S6800U (no TBC, older)

Why did you post these "generic feature-less crappy" decks, what makes them so better than my the Sony DR5-7 post?

Feel free to add to this post by replying below, or at http://www.digitalfaq.com/forum/show...uide-1567.html
Mention details !!! (For example: filters it has, filters missing, clone of another deck, TBC present, etc).

I did, but the hypocritical idiot chewed out the decks, even when I mentioned the missing filters and features of each. I guess he can't afford them or even have access to that level of hardware. Not having doesn't make you all knowing.

This isn't even remotely true. Again, your information is wildly inaccurate. And you most definitely DO NOT work in any professional video production environment if this is your belief.

MPEG2 was never considered professional, until 422 HD was brought over from lossless yuv codecs, and is considered a special and rare subset mpeg2 itself. DVCPROHD doesnt has a lower resolution, but also lower compression that MPEG2, and 422 standard and FW800 never attained what it was supposed to. We are talking about SD formats here, restoring VHS/S-VHS, so NO, MPEG2 is not a professional format for SD. Playing back video on a bunch of garage sale vcrs isnt video restoration. Obviously, I don't work in "YOUR IDEA" of a professional video production environment. "SO CALLED" video professionals don't make enough to afford a reel-to-reel in their lifetime, I can.

Again, misleading at best. While D-VHS was aimed partially at the high-end consumer, it came with a good number of professional features, and is why the machine has been so highly regarded by video professionals that have to suffer through the crap format known as VHS.

This is a joke right...

The below is from a SR-VD400US.

• Highest Quality Picture (full resolution HDTV)
• D-VHS format recording and playback up to 28.2Mbps
• Ideal distribution VTR for recordings made with JVC's JY-HD10U HDTV camcorder.
• Plays JVC's Original Scramble technology
• IEEE-1394 interface
• Built-in standard definition MPEG-2 encoder
• DV to MPEG-2 conversion allows economical high quality archiving of NTSC material (7 hours on DF-420 cassette)

MPEG2 @ 28.8, that unimpressive, as ~25mbps is typical.
Why would I even want an MPEG2 encoder for standard definition (~10mbps) when I can get DV (~25mbps).
DV to MPEG-2 conversion ?....why the hell would i want to downgrade my DV recordings ?

The same encoder is used in DVD/VHS decks, either you get MPEG2 over dv by emulation a DVHS deck on a computer or you get the same quality over the DVD/VHS decks.

No, YOU are the one that doesn't seem to understand what is and is not "professional" for VHS, S-VHS and D-VHS use.

So the non-tbc vcr's you've posted are ?

SDI is really not necessary for VHS or S-VHS. It's also a wasted conversation on a hobby site like this one.

I guess I don't understand what "generic feature-less crappy" decks are, since clearly, your non-tbc and 2mb decks aren't for some reason, but my DR7 and BR-D51U is.....

Frames get dropped for a reason. The only time you'd need to anal-retentive force every frame into view is for forensic work. And even then, not really. (Whole difference conversation that is WAY beyond the comprehension of 99.999% of the people at this site.)

Its probably more than that, I mean if there are millionaires on yahoo answers asking what lear jets to buy. You can get cheapo telecine (consumer vcrs), you can get a professional telecine machine (professional vcrs) or you can get a reel-to-reel film scanner (reel-to-reel tape reader)

Can still drop frames.

Just because you don't have access to custom equipment, you cant make that incorrect assumption.

I think you'd be surprised how often the documentation from manufacturers, as distributed to the public, is massively screwed up. When something obviously works different than a diagram shows, it's quite clear that the diagram is wrong. That is 100% the case, when it comes to DNR from JVC VCRs. Most of this stuff wasn't in English to begin with. Are you reading Japanese, Russian, German, Chinese, etc originals? (Possibly with handwritten notations and corrections.)

Diagrams are in japanese and english. The Japanese is more accurate, they are cad diagrams from the manufacturing process, and no, they are not the repair manuals made for service centers, which will contain errors.

And sometimes it doesn't. This is one of those times. With all due respect, you may know why something works, possibly even how to build one -- but it does not mean you understand video. "On paper" and "reality" rarely meet, when it comes to video. Some of us are very well versed in the technical, and you won't be able to bamboozle us with techno-talk. I hate to come off as an ass, but I hate to see people be misled. And your posts so far a mix of deflection, misleads and incorrect information.

You're the one that has been providing people with half-truths, speculations, popular rhetoric for 3 years. All the VCRs on this sad forum were prototyped at some point, so reality became paper. Paper is reality in manufacturing semiconductor in the VCR, the drums in the transport and the tape itself. VCRs arn't sculpted out of class and then the electronics filled in with duct-tape and solder.

There is your Philosophy and my science. Philosophy brought us islamo-fascist terrorists, Science brought us to the moon.
Your basically the bible thumper being told that there is no god.
or better yet in summing up your 3 year reign of half-truths:
"A lie told often enough becomes truth" Vladimir Lenin.

[orsetto]

This argument is getting repetitive and a bit off track. jodex, we understand what you're trying to say, but you are veering off the primary topic of this thread: it discusses the "best" real-world VCRs one can reasonably choose for dubbing consumer VHS and SVHS tapes to either DVD or PC file formats. "Real-world" meaning what a normal sane person would spend on a VCR for a personal digitizing project, or small business. Not an ultra-pro studio production vcr that costs thousands of $$$ and requires a service contract, and not some mysterious custom-built one-off vcr. Even with the JVCs and Panasonics, you have only two industrial-prosumer models with "frame accurate" serial interface and dedicated reading head: the JVC 365, which is a terrible VCR aside from the frame accuracy, and the Panasonic 5710, which is so rare it hardly pays to look for it. All other Sony/Panasonic/JVC professional/studio/production models are poor choices for dubbing consumer tapes to digital media. Yes, they may have incredible TBCs, zero dropped frames, and total frame accuracy. But they're also huge, heavy, expensive, worn out, and have head designs and transports configured incorrectly for playing tapes recorded by consumer vcrs. This would be similar to buying an old Tango drum scanner to digitize old family photos: misguided overkill (obsolete, huge, messy, inappropriate to the source material). None of us here is making these dubs for LucasFilm or James Cameron.

Models that were popular in Japan that weren't sold or were poorly received elsewhere, like the Reality Engine Sonys with TOC Search, naturally get less coverage because fewer owners speak up on an English-language forum. (Also the Sonys don't have the TBC/DNR feature some regard as essential to smoothing their consumer recordings.) Many of the higher-end Sonys had notorious durability problems in North America: the PSU would just melt down completely shortly after purchase, repairs became expensive or impossible, and now those machines are forgotten. That doesn't mean some weren't good enough performers for people on this thread, it just means so few survived in good working condition that they can't be recommended. Sony parts supply in North America for older items, especially SVHS vcrs, is terrible: dozens of threads and blogs attest to the despair of owners. Its even worse for the handful of top Hitachi and Toshiba SVHS: no parts at all. JVC and Panasonic are not always easy, either, but they were the most popular and had the largest variety of high-end consumer models (JVC) or the longest-produced semipro models (Panasonic). Some parts are still available, those that aren't can be harvested from any number of broken donor units. So JVC and Panasonic are most-discussed models on this thread.

DVHS vcrs, in the terms of this thread, are being used strictly for their ability to play back analog VHS and SVHS tapes with their built-in "TBCs" and DNR circuits. In essence, they are being operated as newer versions of the old SVHS models. No one on this particular thread is the least bit concerned whether digital DVHS meets "high performance professional standards"- its a totally dead format, no one here is silly enough to be transferring DV, VHS or SVHS tapes onto DVHS. The DVHS function in our DVHS vcrs is completely ignored, we couldn't care less what MBPS they run at or if they're 4:2:2, 4:4:4, or 1:2:3:4:5:6. We aren't using them for digital video recording at all.

LordSmurf can be abrupt, and I don't always agree with him, but he's no fool: he's been at this work longer than anyone else here. You are arguing things with him that have little to do with the specific topic of this thread. Your information would be appreciated and welcomed in threads more dedicated to technical discussions, but this thread is for debating the merits of the consumer and prosumer vcrs most commonly used for playing old VHS/SVHS into digital capture hardware. If you don't use one of these vcrs, or don't like them, thats certainly OK: you've made your points clear. Please stop arguing with LordSmurf so this thread can get back on track. Many thanks!

[lordsmurf]

None of us here is making these dubs for LucasFilm or James Cameron.

I'd expand this a bit, actually. VHS restoration is generally only needed for consumer media or surveillance systems. In fact, the only "pro" use of VHS that I can readily think of is porn, organizational training videos, school-related recordings, and 70s-90s cable commercials. But even then, a lot of that was shot to better formats for master, be it S-VHS, U-matic, Betacam, D1 or whatnot. When it was VHS, you'll often find it was made on a cheap VCR, therefore creating a tape that doesn't really cooperate with the industrial VTRs.

Also, thanks for your kind words.

.....

I'd also point out these few tidbits, as well:
- Broadcasts are heavily archived as MPEG masters. I deal with MXF quite a bit.
- DV is inherently degraded already. It's a compressed consumer format, too.
- Later-generation 2MB RAM buffer is as good as early gen higher-RAM buffers. Better RAM.
- The no-TBC units are listed due to high quality transports, as suggested by numerous owners.

I didn't make any of this up because I was bored. This is the industry, this is the world of video. You can either acknowledge it, and make a living do it (which is what I'm about to go do for the rest of the day). Or you can boast about being an engineer in an online forum, and start off-topic arguments.

The primary topic of this thread was VCRs that should be used for consumer tapes, be it by hobbyists or even professional environments (in-house ops, etc). It's NOT for theoretical discussion on what could be best according to a diagram. And therein lies the reason I posted these past few replies. If that's what you want, start your own new thread. Anybody that wants to ignore the advice I've given is free to do so, although I would suggest it will come at the expense of video quality.

[litton]

After some research I came to the conclusion that Panasonic NV-HS1000 would be a great machine for me.
But I got a bit confused when finding different sub-versions.

Does anyone know what these titles means?

NV-HS1000B
NV-HS1000BYP
NV-HS1000EC
NV-HS1000ECP
NV-HS1000EG
NV-HS1000EGC

I got some help with the version history from "Panasonic NV-HS1000EGC. NV-HS1000BYP. NV-HS1000ECP (Service Manual. Simplified).pdf"

Chapter 1-1
"The following charts show the difference between the basic model NV-HS1000EG and the new model NV-HS1000EGC."

Chapter 1-2
"The following charts show the difference between the basic model NV-HS1000B and the new model NV-HS100BYP."

Chapter 1-3
"The following charts show the difference between the basic model NV-HS1000EC and the new model NV-HS1000ECP."


Would any of those sub-versions make any difference for digitalizing old VHS-cassettes?

[ronnylov]

I have a JVC HR-S 7700 that I bought new 10 years ago.
It is a SVHS PAL VCR with line TBC and DNR.
Why is this model not on the list, is it not a recommended model?
I think it may be similar to HR-S 7600 but I am not sure.
What I don't like is that I can not use the TBC without enabling DNR.
DNR gives a little bit too soft picture and I prefer making any denoising myself with avisynth because I think it is better than some old hardware...
But disabling the TBC gives unstable picture. I like the "EDIT" mode because it does not oversharp the picture. Oversharpening is even worse than oversoftening in my view...

So is there anhy model with good TBC but possibility to switch off all denoising functions and also switch off all sharpening functions. I want somthing as close to the original tape as possible without these "enhancing" functions, but still a stable video that is easy to capture.

The reason I ask is because I wonder if there is anything better that I can use (if it is worth searching for something better)?
My VCR is not bad (and I think it was LordSmurf that recommended the JVC machines when I bought it, or maybe I was just lucky to get a good one, I don't remember exactly) but I just want to know if I could get something even better. I am "afraid" that good VHS machines are no longer manufactured so if I replace it I have to find an old second hand machine and they might disappear from the market soon. Nobody use VHS any more, they use DVD or Bluray...

[sanlyn]

I dipped in and out of this sticky over the years, but not until now did I stop to read every post from #1 on. Lots of information. But almost all of it points to (a) gear so old and frazzled and unrepairable that few today could make use of it without serious technical training and lab gear, not to mention trying to find parts, and (b) pro to semi-pro that's workable but that most hobbyists in this forum couldn't possibly afford or maintain.

From another recent thread, mostly with excellent info from orsetto, some of which also appears here, I've focused on the past couple of weeks on consumer-priced Panasonic vcr's on eBay. Right, eBay is an iffy source. But at least PayPal helps with fraud, defects, etc., while a source like Craig's List is even more iffy. All that aside, it seems that most readers here could use information about affordable (and useable) equipment. Since 2002 I've gone the JVC route (4 models tried, 4 models bit the dust). I've gone the 1990's SONY route (5 models down, 5 models bit the dust -- but one top of the line I bought new in 1991 lasted for 11 years of heavy use!). One eBay SONY was inoperable out of the box. Missing a drive belt and all the take-up alignment posts! Seller accused me of stealing the parts, which I could have bought anywhere on the 'net for under $20 for much less hassle. PayPal came through on that. The other used stuff simply died, no parts to revive them.

The other setback hobbysits encounter is the typically cluelesss service tech. I had a Panasonic PV-9668 that started shutting down mid-tape. Took it to 2 local shops back in 2004. For $50 they apparently ran a head cleaner thru the thing and pronounced it cured, but without playing a tape to test the results. The cleaners ruined the heads. Finally found a tech 65 miles north who replaced the resistor causing the shutdown, and replaced the heads. But like most Pannies from 2000 on, the unit soon lost alignment and won't track a damn thing properly. Queries to local techs produce three responses: (a) Get a cleaning tape. Sure, jack. (b) We don't work on VCR's. (c) Buy a new one. (c) sounds even less tech-savvy than (a) IMHO. Service problems aren't limited to old VCR's, either: my 4-month-old LCD HDTV developed a problem with blue, failing at the dark end and giving green blacks. Five technicians each kept the TV for over a month, and all of them thought the picture was "perfect". I offered to pay one tech to entirely replace either the motherboard or the front panel for a TV less than a year old. Parts? No longer available.

The only VCR's that worked out for me are two remaining used buys: A pristine Panasonic PV-8661 from 1998, and a spotless 1996 PV-4662. Both track anything I throw at 'em, with no weird streaks or noisy borders. But they won't last forever, and I still have 200 old VHS tapes. I just got a cheap PV-8662 yesterday; some mild flicker on output (that one's not long for this world, I guess) and 16 pixels of pure noise on the bottom border, but OK for really grungy home-made VHS and some Avisynth cleanup. My rebuilt SONY SLV-585HF (1990) has finally developed tracking problems, but no tech would touch it. So I'm left with two decent Pannies and one so-so unit. And 200 "EP" tapes to go. And a tight budget.

Yes, I've seen the "serviced" and "warrantied" AG-1980's on eBay and elsewhere from a joint called Southern Advantage at several hundred bucks. You'd figure that a shop specializing in AG restorations and even offering warranties would be a fairly safe bet. That's still a bite out of my retirement income. And frankly I'm just scared as hell of spending that much for anything used from eBay or Amazon. For every forum report of stellar performance you find three horror stories. But since my used under-$100 Pannies have, er, panned out fairly well, I keep scouring eBay for more 1996 models. Some sell for so little you can't trust them, especially since the seller's other items include little else but old dolls and kitchen tools. Better choices for PV-4500's and PV-4600's start a bit higher. But not every 4500 or 4600 is a worthy product, even new. There must be dozens of model numbers from that era, with scant info on most of them. Panasonic still posts user manuals, so that's my only source of information -- except for threads like this. It's still a shaky proposition: I'm not afraid of used Panasonics from a certain era, but I've been thru Yellow Pages from 6 New York and 4 New Jersey counties, and even Yahoo. There simply is no service for these things, even though Panasonic and some sources still list many parts for this stuff.

Orsetto has posted some excellent detail about 1995-96 Pannies starting here . This is all I have to go one while shopping daily for that "spare" VCR from 16 years ago. I'm disregarding Pannies with model numbers below PV-4500. I figure PV-4500 and 4600 would have been decent goods back then and should be in useable shape if not abused. But except for the PV-8661, my policy is to avoid any year later than 1996. The other exception is the AG-2560, but current listings on eBay are just too cheap to look reliable IMO.

[orsetto]

The other exception is the AG-2560, but current listings on eBay are just too cheap to look reliable IMO.

The AG-2560 is among the most obscure models Panasonic ever sold, almost no one knows about it who wasn't a purchasing agent for office or kiosk A/V gear in 2001. Inevitably they all have missing remotes as well, not a big deal but it dissuades the casual shopper who doesn't already have an old Panasonic or universal remote. So the 2560 is almost always available for $25-45 on eBay (they do typically nail you another $20 on the shipping). The older AG2550 is near-identical but has much poorer HiFi and SLP tracking (the reasons why they made a 2560). The rarer, later AG-2570 and AG-2580 were JVC products, OEM'd for Panasonic: people with just enough knowledge to outfox themselves recognize the JVC appearance and think they're getting some sort of bargain (esp on the AG-2580, which looks exactly like a JVC SR-V101). This drives the asking prices of 2570 and 2580 to above $80, but they aren't worth that: despite appearances, they are not exact equivalents to similar JVC models (they don't include the coveted TBC/DNR of the SR-V101, etc). The AG2560 is the best of the four, a really well-built no-frills VCR with exceptional good tracking in hifi and a reasonably good video presentation.