VCR buying guide (S-VHS / D-VHS / Professional)

[ChibiBoi]

chibiboi, are you able to upload some vhs captures from your HR-S3500U ?

This clip is taken from the JVC HR-S3500U + the Panasonic ES15 DVD Recorder as passthrough
http://www.mediafire.com/?93fredvs13yna4a

[sanlyn]

Either you have an alignment problem or a tape problem. You might try turning off the 3500's calibration feature.

It looks like you're using composite to capture with a VCR that has s-video outputs. Bad dot crawl.

[ChibiBoi]

Either you have an alignment problem or a tape problem. You might try turning off the 3500's calibration feature.

It looks like you're using composite to capture with a VCR that has s-video outputs. Bad dot crawl.

I'm using the s-video output and calibration turned off, but the video looking like it's coming from a composite source is one of my concerns but I'm not sure if it's the VCR or my capture settings. How can you tell if I have an alignment problem?
BTW here's a filtered version of the clip: http://www.mediafire.com/?7ccw9x9j8fuvcuf

[sanlyn]

You don't notice distortion along the bottom border of your posted video?

The sample looks like a tape made from another tape, or a tape made with the composite connection from a VCR or DVD player. Look at lines and edges. It's difficult to tell the cause of the dot crawl and mild aliasing because there is no info about where the original tape came from.

Otherwise, other elements of the video seem workable to me.

[lordsmurf]

@orsetto:
JVC and Panasoinc both do a good job, with SP and LP and EP, most of the time.
It's those other times that Panasonic + EP (SLP), JVC = SP.

This is video. There's no single answer.

[Master Tape]

Do any of the VCR's have the option to turn off DNR?

[manono]

Do any of the VCR's have the option to turn off DNR?

I know the PAL Panasonic NV-HS 860 has the DNR independent of the TBC. It can be turned off, yes.

[Quasipal]

Do any of the VCR's have the option to turn off DNR?

I know the PAL Panasonic NV-HS 860 has the DNR independent of the TBC. It can be turned off, yes.

The Panasonic NV-HS960 and NV-HS930 do as well.

[Highscore]

Hello Everyone. I noticed this forum seems to still be active, which is odd considering the formats demise in the 21st century. But like most of you I am glad to see that the discussions continue as the worlds most popular video format, VHS and its variants, will most likely drag on a bit longer. Or at least until those YouTube kids grow up into adulthood without any knowledge of what a Video cassette is or was.

Anyway, I have been on a mission to find a component or even HDMI (like the JVC HM-DT100U) S-VHS or D-VHS deck with a TBC for some digital archiving. I have been avoiding the professional decks (i.e. SONY VO-5800 and the likes) due to their lack of playing consumer recorded speeds like LP and EP. I Have been concentrating on getting a D-VHS deck as the format seems to meet most of my requirements. Decks like the JVC HM-DH4000U and HM-DT100U.
After reading through forum after forum I realize my choices are very limited. Am I missing anything? Were there any other S-VHS decks with Component outs?
And lastly, does anyone on this forum know of anyone selling a deck that would meet my needs? I have been through the usual ebay and Craigslist searches. In some cases finding what I need but loosing the auction, prices are just insane, or decks are being sold for parts.
Any help would be appreciated.

[Seeker47]

Hello Everyone. I noticed this forum seems to still be active, which is odd considering the formats demise in the 21st century. But like most of you I am glad to see that the discussions continue as the worlds most popular video format, VHS and its variants, will most likely drag on a bit longer. Or at least until those YouTube kids grow up into adulthood without any knowledge of what a Video cassette is or was.

Anyway, I have been on a mission to find a component or even HDMI (like the JVC HM-DT100U) S-VHS or D-VHS deck with a TBC for some digital archiving. I have been avoiding the professional decks (i.e. SONY VO-5800 and the likes) due to their lack of playing consumer recorded speeds like LP and EP. I Have been concentrating on getting a D-VHS deck as the format seems to meet most of my requirements. Decks like the JVC HM-DH4000U and HM-DT100U.
After reading through forum after forum I realize my choices are very limited. Am I missing anything? Were there any other S-VHS decks with Component outs?
And lastly, does anyone on this forum know of anyone selling a deck that would meet my needs? I have been through the usual ebay and Craigslist searches. In some cases finding what I need but loosing the auction, prices are just insane, or decks are being sold for parts.
Any help would be appreciated.

Not a direct response to your query, as I don't know the answer, but in regard to anything you might purchase, you may want to have a look at some issues raised in this thread:

https://forum.videohelp.com/threads/359201-Looking-for-Deter-I-need-my-AG1980-repaired?...58#post2272258

[Brad]

Component is unlikely to offer any advantage over S-Video for (S-)VHS, because the chroma resolution is ridiculously low. The only VCRs I'm aware of with component output are the big Professional decks as you mentioned, which only offer it from the output of their TBC cards if installed.

There is a possible advantage with HDMI output, in that you're only doing A-D instead of A-D-A-D as with a typical TBC. A few issues crop up:

• The vast majority of HDMI devices will not output 480i, so you're likely stuck capturing 480p (or even worse, 720p). You either have to live with the realtime deinterlacing performed by the processing in the device, or hope that you can losslessly re-interlace your capture.
• You're limited to the Proc Amp image adjustments available on the HDMI device, which may be none at all. Even if there are adjustments, their latitude may not be wide enough to help. I shared some experiences I had with this on Digital FAQ's forum.
• It seems most devices that convert analog to HDMI encrypt the output with HDCP, regardless of whether the original source was an unprotected home movie or encumbered with its own copy protection. Of the problems I've listed, this is the simplest to solve.

As you're aware, there are only a few D-VHS machines sold with HDMI outputs. I've been curious about them myself, but not for the prices inflated by the steadfast D-VHS collectors.

[Highscore]

Hello Everyone. I noticed this forum seems to still be active, which is odd considering the formats demise in the 21st century. But like most of you I am glad to see that the discussions continue as the worlds most popular video format, VHS and its variants, will most likely drag on a bit longer. Or at least until those YouTube kids grow up into adulthood without any knowledge of what a Video cassette is or was.

Anyway, I have been on a mission to find a component or even HDMI (like the JVC HM-DT100U) S-VHS or D-VHS deck with a TBC for some digital archiving. I have been avoiding the professional decks (i.e. SONY VO-5800 and the likes) due to their lack of playing consumer recorded speeds like LP and EP. I Have been concentrating on getting a D-VHS deck as the format seems to meet most of my requirements. Decks like the JVC HM-DH4000U and HM-DT100U.
After reading through forum after forum I realize my choices are very limited. Am I missing anything? Were there any other S-VHS decks with Component outs?
And lastly, does anyone on this forum know of anyone selling a deck that would meet my needs? I have been through the usual ebay and Craigslist searches. In some cases finding what I need but loosing the auction, prices are just insane, or decks are being sold for parts.
Any help would be appreciated.

Not a direct response to your query, as I don't know the answer, but in regard to anything you might purchase, you may want to have a look at some issues raised in this thread:

https://forum.videohelp.com/threads/359201-Looking-for-Deter-I-need-my-AG1980-repaired?...58#post2272258

Thanks Seeker47 for the response. Just one more reason to keep looking in the direction I have been.

[Highscore]

Component is unlikely to offer any advantage over S-Video for (S-)VHS, because the chroma resolution is ridiculously low. The only VCRs I'm aware of with component output are the big Professional decks as you mentioned, which only offer it from the output of their TBC cards if installed.

There is a possible advantage with HDMI output, in that you're only doing A-D instead of A-D-A-D as with a typical TBC. A few issues crop up:

• The vast majority of HDMI devices will not output 480i, so you're likely stuck capturing 480p (or even worse, 720p). You either have to live with the realtime deinterlacing performed by the processing in the device, or hope that you can losslessly re-interlace your capture.
• You're limited to the Proc Amp image adjustments available on the HDMI device, which may be none at all. Even if there are adjustments, their latitude may not be wide enough to help. I shared some experiences I had with this on Digital FAQ's forum.
• It seems most devices that convert analog to HDMI encrypt the output with HDCP, regardless of whether the original source was an unprotected home movie or encumbered with its own copy protection. Of the problems I've listed, this is the simplest to solve.

As you're aware, there are only a few D-VHS machines sold with HDMI outputs. I've been curious about them msyelf, but not for the prices inflated by the steadfast D-VHS collectors.

Vaporeon800, thank you and your response is noted. My reasoning for Component or HDMI is my current workflow. Most people are content with typical Mpeg 2 or H.264 encoders. In which case I would have to do addition transcoding and risk introducing other video anomalies. By using a digital workflow I can bring in my video as ProRes or uncompressed NTSC. At least the way I understand things.

[Brad]

Not sure what you mean by "digital workflow". Any VCR with component output is going to send out analog.

ProRes, uncompressed, and lossless can all be used with devices that accept S-Video, composite, even modulated RF.

[Highscore]

Not sure what you mean by "digital workflow". Any VCR with component output is going to send out analog.

ProRes, uncompressed, and lossless can all be used with devices that accept S-Video, composite, even modulated RF.

Agreed, Component out is not digital and it never was, but through the use of a TBC I should be able to lock signal better within my workflow which would be easier within the Digital realm that I'm working. And using a deck with Component outputs gets me to the digital world faster within that workflow. If I use S-video I'll have to break out the the cable to BNC connectors. I'm just trying to keep things simple and direct. But then I am woking with VHS tapes so what did I expect?
I agree that the differences in video quality between S-video, component, and HDMI are relative to the formats maximum resolution output. But with decks of higher quality with component or HDMI out, whether it is a S-VHS or a D-VHS deck, the fact of the connections being present speaks to an easier workflow in my digital environment.


So, by chance do you know where I can obtain a decent deck with said connections?

[Brad]

What's your capture device, anyhow?

I don't have a clue where the D-VHS decks might be sold second-hand outside of eBay/CL. You may be able to widen your search slightly if you accept DV [edit: MPEG-2; see below] as your digital capture format instead. As I recall a few of the D-VHS machines did encode analog signals out to Firewire.

I assume you're aware of the handful of DVD/VHS combo units made that output VHS over HDMI. There are also two discontinued BD/VHS combos, for ridiculous prices.

http://www.amazon.com/Panasonic-DMP-BD70V-Blu-ray-Multimedia-Player/dp/B001VZ1W5U
http://www.amazon.com/Magnavox-MBP110V-F7-Blu-Ray-Player/dp/B003SNJC1Y/

I'd like to know whether any of them perform any sort of TBC functionality. I guess if you have the credit available you could buy one and resell it without losing too much. The only recent eBay listings for the Panasonic that failed to sell for over $350 are ones that had a Reserve set higher than that.

[NJRoadfan]

The JVC DVHS decks will automatically convert analog playback to a MPEG2 Transport Stream via their firewire ports. Audio will be MPEG I Layer 2 format. I haven't looked at the results, but if you plan on doing any sort of advanced restoration, you are best capturing to a lossless format via a PC based capture card.

[Brad]

Oh yeah that's right. Bummer. Apparently the max bitrate is 14.1Mbps. Do you have one of those VCRs?

[Highscore]

What's your capture device, anyhow?

I don't have a clue where the D-VHS decks might be sold second-hand outside of eBay/CL. You may be able to widen your search slightly if you accept DV [edit: MPEG-2; see below] as your digital capture format instead. As I recall a few of the D-VHS machines did encode analog signals out to Firewire.

I assume you're aware of the handful of DVD/VHS combo units made that output VHS over HDMI. There are also two discontinued BD/VHS combos, for ridiculous prices.

http://www.amazon.com/Panasonic-DMP-BD70V-Blu-ray-Multimedia-Player/dp/B001VZ1W5U
http://www.amazon.com/Magnavox-MBP110V-F7-Blu-Ray-Player/dp/B003SNJC1Y/

I'd like to know whether any of them perform any sort of TBC functionality. I guess if you have the credit available you could buy one and resell it without losing too much. The only recent eBay listings for the Panasonic that failed to sell for over $350 are ones that had a Reserve set higher than that.

I am using a Blackmagic Ultrastudio Express connected via Thunderbolt to a Retina Macbook Pro. The VHS is just a large part of a personal archive of Hi8, 1", 3/4, betacam, Betacam SP, Digital betacam, DVcam, and XDcam. The Blackmagic box handles everything but the VHS, it needs a TBC to lock up.

Thank you for the BD / VHS combo deck suggestion. It is something I will look into. I wasn't really aware such a beast existed.

[NJRoadfan]

Oh yeah that's right. Bummer. Apparently the max bitrate is 14.1Mbps. Do you have one of those VCRs?

I have a SR-VD400U, basically the Pro branded version of the HM-DH40000U. One nice thing about it is the pass through TBC function. It does a great job of cleaning up time-base horizontal jitter, handy for formats that don't have fancy VCRs like Betamax. Using an external TBC like the AVT-8710 or TBC-1000 is completely optional since it outputs a clean continuous sync signal. You only need the TBC if you want to kill Macrovision. I wish I could get some time with the later HDMI models to see if they have this function too.

[sanlyn]

Looking up a working high-end (or even low end) VCR is a lottery these days, along with all the other hassles everyone reports. I just last week managed to save up the king's ransom for a Panny AG-1980 reconditioned by Southern Advantage. Well....despite some scratchy stuff on the case, the unit inside is spotless. Looks like some new caps, a new capstan roller, at least one new belt. This was not cheap. And the damn thing works! Looks like a slight high-gamma problem, nothing that can't be fixed later and noticeable only when comparing captures to those made with other (lesser) machines.

Now, before this puppy develops any age problems I'll be capturing VHS like a bandit for a few weeks. Still have 200 hours of old VHS to go. As backup I acquired a Panny PV-S4670 and a PV-S4672 during the past few months. Okay, no TBC. But they kinda "look" like the laid-back quality of the AG-1980 in playback with no phoney "enhancement" from later Pannies. Unfortunately the 4672 must have some aging caps, as I see some faint horizontal noise, and neither is quite up to par with the AG-1980. Still, it's tracking ugly crappy stretched noisy VHS quite well, most of the time without help from a line TBC pass-thru. Both of these lesser Pannies. according to the seller, have been spruced up and serviced. One of them was maintained so well that except for a scratched top corner it looked as if it had seldom been used, if ever. One major difference between the pro and consumer models that I noticed right away is that the 1980 displays fewer Macrovision side effects; they're still visible but not as dire.

I passed up quite a few buys over the last couple years, and did end up with two lemons on the way that I chalked up to the odds. Be prepared for the long haul and some probable losses. These three buys took nearly 4 years of searching. I likely missed out on a few goodies due to wariness and indecision about some of the stuff I saw. But it looks as if it's still possible to get something that can keep those VHS transfers going.

[orsetto]

The Panasonic PV-S4670, PV-S4672 and super-rare PV-S4680 are quite nice: usually inexpensive second-hand. The trouble is finding them now: the good ones Samlyn located are circa 1995-1996, near-top of the line models. But those model numbers were recycled twice after that, for far lesser VCRs, so be careful to check the mfr date on the back panels of any eBay or Craigs List prospects.

These mid-90s Panasonics employed a crude sort of non-defeatable analog color noise reduction system that is surprisingly competitive with the AG1980, as Samlyn noted. When working perfectly it is effective at clearing up noisy blocks of red and blue, but the system is extraordinarily sensitive to tracking. The tape must track 100% spot-on or the color system can backfire spectacularly, with any reds in the picture flickering and shimmering like crazy. Care must be taken to very carefully fine tune the tracking with the manual buttons, sometimes sacrificing hifi audio in the process. Good workhorse VCRs: probably the last hurrah for Panasonic before they began cutting corners severely.

[sanlyn]

I guess my two 1996 "PV"s (according to the labels on back) have been recently serviced as claimed by the sellers. One of them even came with an original copy of two maintenance contract receipts, each dated 4 years apart. That's the one that I described as looking relatively "unused". The performance of both is a far cry from the lemons I've encountered in this long search. I don't pretend that any of these eBay buys were cheap; the asking prices were well below the original MSRPs but definitely above the typical cheapo standard that one usually sees. The two PV's were listed by sellers who apparently specialize in restoring or servicing VCRs (they don't seem to be selling tableware, cameras or tchotchkes on the side). Some lists of items by many VCR "sellers" appear to be a mix of results from dumpster diving, or worse.

To add to orsetto's comments about the "PV" numbers: The good guys I've been looking for were made in 1995, 1996-7. Those model numbers look like PV-456x and PV-466x, with PV-S45xx and PV-S4600 for the s-video models. For some reason Panasonic skipped some numbers and moved to the PV-7000 series which somehow never took off. They not very popular (I bought one of them, and I can see why). By 1998 the PV-8000 series became huge sellers. The higher versions were the PV-8660 thru PV-8664 series (the later featuring Dynamorphous heads). These were popular VCR's and were decent trackers and had OK if somewhat over-sharp images and tinny audio, but I used two of them for over 3 years and in some cases they are the only machines that could track some horrible tapes I've encountered. But this 1998 series seems to have marked the beginning of the juiced-up-and-sharpened images that a couple of years later would result in the putrid, oversaturated, exceptionally noisy machines that were so cheap and so tacky that the public grabbed them up in hordes as if the darn things had free money inside. Following the 9600 series, the model numbers were recycled with 4000's, but with a twist: The new numbering became PV-V4xxx, the extra "v" indicating the seriously downgraded line, which were real junk heaps that didn't even make good paperweights. Their chief claim to fame is that some of them actually lived as long their warranties.

The "AG" and pro/business series were usually better machines designed more for long use than for super-duper imaging. But orsetto has mentioned a few AG's that stand out from the rest.

I don't want these buys to make me sound as if I'm one lucky dude or that I have some 6th-sense savvy or a magic wand. I did have some guidance from orsetto's posts, which are treasures of priceless info about some decent VCRs. What really happened was work: patience, almost continuous searching for long periods, and just being plain desperate enough to take a calculated gamble a few times (and lose a few times) to get a decent player. I guess I could have rescued a couple of those lemons if I had the time, the skill, and the tools, but I lacked all three. The message for those who are thinking of looking, or are still doing so, is to be prepared for quite a trip. I'm of the opinion that there are a few possibilities remaining out there. But only a few.

[buyabook]

Hello,

I wanted to know 200-300 dollars is a good budget to get a quality vcr to capture vhs tapes. I have been able to find some of the vcrs listed in post #1 withing that budget. I just want to make sure that its not a cheap budget for high quality capturing VCRS

[lordsmurf]

Hello,

I wanted to know 200-300 dollars is a good budget to get a quality vcr to capture vhs tapes. I have been able to find some of the vcrs listed in post #1 withing that budget. I just want to make sure that its not a cheap budget for high quality capturing VCRS

Yes.

- Anything under $200 is a bargain, or usually in need of repair ()even if the seller says otherwise).
- The $200-300 range is typical of good used equipment.
- Anything in the $400-600 range is usually new or like-new (boxed, documented minimal use, etc).

Most of these decks were $500+ new. So half price is average used price for photo/video gear.

Next comes the external TBC (yes BOTH a external TBC -and- a S-VHS TBC!), and the quality capture card. It's an investment of $~600, but worth it. You can always resell it when done to recoup some costs.

[buyabook]

My plan is to feed the vcr to a sony digital 8 dcr trv 120 handicam that outputs it through a firewire connection to my computer. I captured 30 hi-8 tapes using this camcorder and I was very satisfied with the quality captured. I am hoping that the quality captured will be of the same quality.

[buyabook]

is ebay the only online marketplace for these vcrs?

[lordsmurf]

is ebay the only online marketplace for these vcrs?

Any marketplace that sells used video gear will work.

[Quasipal]

is ebay the only online marketplace for these vcrs?

Ebay is the worst place for buying VCR's. Why? Because sellers of the coveted S-VHS decks do a little research and realize that they have something worth a fair bit of money. The deck in all likelihood has been sitting under the television doing soap recording duties for a decade and disconnected in 2005 where it has spent time fossilising in the garage. It is in all likelihood just about shot but a quick wipe over, some flowery words such as 'this machine cost me £1000 new' and 'the pinnacle of VHS editing offering a raft of features' and buyers are all over it. Don't get me started on the flippers - they add 'seller refurbished' into the mix too.

But saying that, eBay has worked for me. Buying from someone locally means you can see the machine before bidding and also collect it in person. Looks are not an indicator of performance - my best purchases have been ex-studio machines that have stickers and scratches but very little use and perform like new. It's the 'like new' decks that have been the letdowns for me since exterior condition is irrelevant to video performance.

The charity shops have been good to me - less so now though as most decent decks have gone to eBay (the shops sell the good stuff online).

[lordsmurf]

Ebay is the worst place for buying VCR's. Why? Because sellers of the coveted S-VHS decks do a little research and realize that they have something worth a fair bit of money. The deck in all likelihood has been sitting under the television doing soap recording duties for a decade and disconnected in 2005 where it has spent time fossilising in the garage.

With pro decks, this is rarely the case.

You have 3 issues:
- it's broken and the person knows it
- it's broken and the person does not know it
- it's been overused by a studio or college, and is overly worn

But at least 25% of them are fine, if not more.

Note that you MUST be careful with the AG-1980P model, as it's hitting the cap replacement age. Those decks can cost $200-400 to fix, so it would not be worth more than $100 for a known defective unit.

Most JVC S-VHS decks are fine.

However, this is one reason why the DIY capture method may not be ideal. When it doubt, pay a quality service to transfer your videos.