VCR buying guide (S-VHS / D-VHS / Professional)

[lordsmurf]

Panasonic NV-HS1000. But also about Panasonic NV-SV121.
Did you use these two devices and are able to compare them to each other?

Not those.
I have JVC HR-S7965EK, great image quality, decent mechanics.
But I see lots of files from lots of models.

Later produced(newer) ... doesn't mean that they are better

No.

Panasonic NV-HS1000 or JVC HR-S7722(because it's probably older than HR-S9600) ?

Both JVC are about the same age, 96-ish, HS1000 from early 00s. But again, age doesn't matter. Quality matters. Just note that most good decks are from mid/late 90s,a and early 00s. Nothing 80s, not early 90s, and nothing existed in 2010s. So you're not going to find a quality decks from 1990 or 2010, that's just nonsense.

[There is also the issue of device performance, where I think that for example DD (Dynamics Drums) in JVC can do more harm than good for example for cassettes. (Maybe).

DD almost never does more harm that good. But it may or may not help. The bigger issue with DD is all are not about 20 years old, and the plastic is breaking down sort of like Panasonic caps. Masses, not isolated. I rarely see a 9x00 deck without a DD issue now, mostly read about DD issues. No replacement parts exist, and 3D printing tecj isn't yet viable for printing the gear that's needed. So us owners with faulty decks wait. There are some workarounds that various members of www.digitalFAQ.com/forum have found to bypass DD, but I'm not sure I'd recommended it. It's major VCR surgery, and the outcome may not be the same quality deck when done.

[Eric-jan]

If you're going to buy at VCRSHOP .... go for the Panasonic DMR-ES35V it has some kind of processing..... which gives a very stable video signal... it's no TBC but my Intensity Shuttle has absolute no problems with it, and BMD products are choosy.. works perfect, the component video output works also for the VHS deck/part
no need for external tbc etc...

[dima]

Both JVC are about the same age, 96-ish, HS1000 from early 00s.

I thought that the Panasonic NV-HS1000 was produced in the years(or when its production was then started) in the following years(somewhere about): 1993 - 1995. I thought so on the basis of this data:
https://forum.videohelp.com/threads/286055-VCR-buying-guide-(S-VHS-D-VHS-Professional)...e2#post1876423
http://www.digitalfaq.com/forum/video-restore/1567-vcr-buying-guide-7.html#post32565
Do you know to which year was this model produced ? [For example to 1995 or to later year] ?

[lordsmurf]

If you're going to buy at VCRSHOP .... go for the Panasonic DMR-ES35V

That's a terrible choice. It offers nothing useful.

[Eric-jan]

If you're going to buy at VCRSHOP .... go for the Panasonic DMR-ES35V

That's a terrible choice. It offers nothing useful.

Why do you say that ? i own this one, it gives a very stable video signal, no external TBC needed, which most VCR's need.
Why so negative ? did you use and try the ES35V ? Why do you "think" it's bad ? some hard evidence please.... you're so irritating.

[lordsmurf]

Why do you say that ? i own this one, it gives a very stable video signal, no external TBC needed, which most VCR's need.
Why so negative ? did you use and try the ES35V ? Why do you "think" it's bad ? some hard evidence please.... you're so irritating.

Your own sample clips, what few you've given, show obvious quality problems. It's just another low-end Panasonic DVD recorder that accepts whatever signal it's given, and in turn outputs it on whatever output is selected. Garbage in, garbage out. No corrections, no filtering, no image improvement, which is the reason for these VCRs.

No item magically removed need for a TBC. That's not how it works. The ES35V does not contain anything that could be considered TBC-like whatsoever, as has been confirmed by multiple other knowledgeable European pro members (Bogilein, hodgey, etc).

I'm not "negative", I'm just getting tired of newbie spreading false information. We've already had this same conversation, too many times now.

Liking/buying the device doesn't change these facts. I like my car, it's fast, but I'm not dumb enough to insist it could win Nascar.

Anyway, this is a thread about buying the best VCRs, so you need to just back away slowly, you're straying off topic.

[Eric-jan]

It's about capturing VHS tapes..... i thought....
(nobody told me what was wrong with my captures btw)

[davideck]

No item magically removed need for a TBC. That's not how it works. The ES35V does not contain anything that could be considered TBC-like whatsoever

Like all DVD Recorders, the Panasonic ES35V contains a 'frame synchronizer', which some people here refer to as a "full frame TBC". The video output timing will be stable and continuous regardless of the video input condition, but as always, YMMV.

Here we are in 2019, and the mass confusion over what a 'TBC' is and does still remains a mystery to many.

[lordsmurf]

No item magically removed need for a TBC. That's not how it works. The ES35V does not contain anything that could be considered TBC-like whatsoever

Like all DVD Recorders, the Panasonic ES35V contains a 'frame synchronizer', which some people here refer to as a "full frame TBC". The video output timing will be stable and continuous regardless of the video input condition, but as always, YMMV.

A frame sync is not a frame sync TBC. So a DataVideo TBC-1000 isn't at all the same as DVD recorder.

Furthermore, even when DVD recorders seem to have some sort of TBC(ish) functionality, they have holes gouged in the processing, to purposely allow passage of anti-copy. Yet legitimate issue leak through, always have. So it's not a true TBC, and does not completely eliminated problems -- ie the reason for the TBC to even be in a workflow chain. There are workarounds, involving two devices that claim to be "TBC" (but neither actually are individually).

Here we are in 2019, and the mass confusion over what a 'TBC' is and does still remains a mystery to many.

TBC is an extremely loose term, and even the types of TBCs vary. There are frame, field, line, and some others. And each has varying degrees of strengths. As an example, the "TBC" inside an ADVC-300 is so wimpy that it may as well not even exist, no major visual corrections, no major signal corrections. Same goes for most DVD recorders. Garbage in, worse garbage out.

You and I used to have a lot of disagreement and discussion on this site. But in the past 5 years, I've either owned or tested everything I could that claimed to have "TBC". And I've met several folks in USA and EU that did the same. To some degree, it was to find TBC alternatives, since TBCs were both becoming harder to find, and rising in costs. Most "TBCs" hugely disappoint, and are TBC in name only (meaning not really a TBC at all).

The term is so haphazardly thrown around that I often joke my toaster could have a TBC.

TBC is not TBC. It's just not. I wish it were not the case, but that's just our reality.

[dima]

What with that: https://forum.videohelp.com/threads/286055-VCR-buying-guide-(S-VHS-D-VHS-Professional)...10#post2555195 ?
(In Service Manual for Panasonic NV-HS1000 for versions: EGC, BYP, ECP(which ones are probably newer than for example: EG model) is writing year: 1995.)

[Which is better for capturing the signal from VHS tapes to a file than Canopus ADVC-300 in terms of the quality of the captured image (not looking only in terms TBC - let's assume it is good because I have the best external TBC - only for "general" quality[among others, TBC affects this.] of picture) ? Is something for USB connection better than Canopus ADVC-300(DV connection) ? I know about ATI 600 USB but is hard to get it.]

[lordsmurf]

What with that: https://forum.videohelp.com/threads/286055-VCR-buying-guide-(S-VHS-D-VHS-Professional)...10#post2555195 ?
(In Service Manual for Panasonic NV-HS1000 for versions: EGC, BYP, ECP(which ones are probably newer than for example: EG model) is writing year: 1995.)

There are several PAL S-VHS users with detailed knowledge on those decks over at www.digitalFAQ.com/forum, so you may want to ask this there. My gut feeling is that there's not a major difference. There rarely is, when it comes to the letters extensions.

[Which is better for capturing the signal from VHS tapes to a file than Canopus ADVC-300 in terms of the quality of the captured image (not looking only in terms TBC - let's assume it is good because I have the best external TBC - only for "general" quality[among others, TBC affects this.] of picture) ? Is something for USB connection better than Canopus ADVC-300(DV connection) ? I know about ATI 600 USB but is hard to get it.]

The Canopus is expensive and DV. DV is fine for PAL, 4:2:0, but the problem here is the 3000 filters that never turn off. It's just a bad devices anywhere. The ADVC-100/110 would have been passable for PAL. However, getting off DV altogether is more ideal, capture lossless 4:2:2. In terms of cards being hard to find, I have extras available.

[dima]

The Canopus is expensive and DV. DV is fine for PAL, 4:2:0, but the problem here is the 3000 filters that never turn off. It's just a bad devices anywhere. The ADVC-100/110 would have been passable for PAL. However, getting off DV altogether is more ideal, capture lossless 4:2:2. In terms of cards being hard to find, I have extras available.

It seems to me that by using Picture Controller 300 via PC for ADVC-300 control you can turn off all filters. I might be wrong.
I have such questions related to this: http://www.digitalfaq.com/forum/news/9868-image-subsamplingchroma-subsampling.html

[davideck]

A frame sync is not a frame sync TBC. So a DataVideo TBC-1000 isn't at all the same as DVD recorder.

C'mon LS. After all these years, there must be something that we can agree on.

From the hardware (schematic) point of view, they are functionally identical with two exceptions;

1) The TBC-1000 blanks out the copy protection lines at its output. I don't know how they get away with this. The DVD Recorder manufacturers are bound to obey the copy protection laws. If CP is a problem, then the choice is clear.

2) TBC - TimeBase Correction performance. Both devices are attempting to stabilize the input signal. Each specific input processing IC has its own strengths ands weaknesses, advantages and disadvantages. In some conditions, they can even make things worse.

The first device that digitizes the analog video input will determine the TBC performance of the capture.

Any disagreement(s) old pal?

[lordsmurf]

Yep, we're always so close on agreement...

I actually have TBC diagrams (not public documents), but I don't recall what all was written. I'll have to look sometime.

"Copy protection" is just an artificial video error, and false positives happen. Those false positives are an unacceptable and unnecessary problem for professional use. Companies like Macrovisino may have sway over consumer products, but not pro gear, especially since Macrovision was dwarfed by the pro companies.

Frame sync simply stores the frame, warts and all, no correction. In digital terms, it's only there to fend off dropped frames. But inserted/dropped frames is still a potential issue, as the incoming signal is dirty, uncorrected. DVD recorders are the only modern item to have these, and are almost always for input only (not output, therefore no passthrough). Stuff like this is also why some workflows insert frames, even when using the TBC(ish) ES10/15, interplay between workflow devices (capture card, VCR, etc). Not all framesyncs are made equal.

TBCs correct the images/signal -- be it line, field, or frame -- but frames can still be lost. This is obvious on S-VHS VCRs with line/field TBCs, or even SVHS/Hi8 cameras, as those can and do drop frames.

- Line (or field, aka multi-line) TBCs are more concerned with intraframe errors, most correcting the image. Some signal correction as a byproduct.
- Frame TBCs concentrate on interframe errors, whole frame corrections. Some image correction as a byproduct. Lots of rackmount/broadcast TBCs are just TBCs, and unsuitable for VHS sources.

Frame sync TBCs, essentially all modern (90s/00s) prosumer external TBCs, correct signal timing, as well as store the full frame(s) in a buffer. So it not only corrects, but maintains a steady flow of data at the proper fps output speed.

Anyway ...

It's not really that we disagree, as nothing you've said (in that last post) was necessarily wrong. Just incomplete.

Remember: This is a thread about VCRs, and line TBCs. So some of this topic is meandering a bit.

[Eric-jan]

The ES35V has no TBC, it's nowhere mentioned, (and i didn't mention that) it's even not a SuperVHS recorder, but it does have a s-video in and output, it does have a DV input,
It just works for me, (With the Intensity Shuttle) for me it has good results, i'm no pro. maybe that's an advantage just my luck, as i read now that most pro TBC's are not VHS "suitable" but i still do not understand why i have these "good" results .... i guess most other (not so pro) people would also happy with it.
"Trash in trash out" is also something..... yes, lots of VHS recordings are not perfect to start with.... so what's a perfect capture....