Indoor Antenna recommendation

[edDV]

The terrain data comes from the government. The same data used to create topographic maps. The TV station data may be faulty. That comes from the FCC and may not be timely. Many changes are happening with tower construction and new transmitters. The models that drive the reception estimation are the same ones used by broadcasters and the FCC for TV tower location and power regulation..

No new towers or translators have been installed in the past year at least. I take that back, the Nextel deal of switching to digital required some new recievers on existing towers.

CBS has been digital for about 2 1/2 years
ABC has been digital for about 1 1/2 years (only digital on antennaweb)
NBC has been digital for about 6 months and is also local news in HD

If it takes more than 2 1/2 years to update info on antennaweb, then how reliable can it be? My point exactly

At least where we live

Which town is this? Let me try running it.

Anyway antennaweb uses the FCC database and should be reasonably up to date. Are you saying these stations don't appear on your address scan or not at all for the community?

RAW FCC data is difficult to interpret. This link has extracted the data in a more usable format and links the "DTV TRANSITION STATUS REPORT" the station must file to explain the transition plan for Feb 17, 2009 and the new channels they will be using as the spectrum is narrowed. See the Exhibits section at the bottom for the plan.
http://www.rabbitears.info/dtr.php

TVFool is an alternative to Antennaweb that gives a more techie result but it would be more confusing for most.
It lists some channels but in the fine print detail, you find the -100dBm column indicates the pole height needed to get -100dBm with a big antenna. At my location the pole would need to be 700 to 900 ft high in many cases
http://www.tvfool.com/

[stiltman]

Are you saying these stations don't appear on your address scan or not at all for the community?

TVFool is an alternative to Antennaweb that gives a more techie result but it would be more confusing for most.
It lists some channels but in the fine print detail, you find the -100dBm column indicates the pole height needed to get -100dBm with a big antenna. At my location the pole would need to be 700 to 900 ft high in many cases
http://www.tvfool.com/

Going by zip code, going by map zoom-in, going by address, for Digital stations

Antennaweb lists
ABC
TEL
PBS

Now tvfool lists
ABC
CBS
NBC
FOX
TEL
MyN
UNI
1 Non affiliate

[edDV]

Are you saying these stations don't appear on your address scan or not at all for the community?

TVFool is an alternative to Antennaweb that gives a more techie result but it would be more confusing for most.
It lists some channels but in the fine print detail, you find the -100dBm column indicates the pole height needed to get -100dBm with a big antenna. At my location the pole would need to be 700 to 900 ft high in many cases
http://www.tvfool.com/

Going by zip code, going by map zoom-in, going by address, for Digital stations

Antennaweb lists
ABC
TEL
PBS

Now tvfool lists
ABC
CBS
NBC
FOX
TEL
MyN
UNI
1 Non affiliate

The goal of antennaweb is to predict reception with typical home antennas at a particular address. TVFool lists more stations but then mentions the need for a 900 foot antenna to get -100dBm

There may be errors for your town.

[edDV]

Quick question. Are you actually receiving channels that antennaweb doesn't list?

This reminds me of Garmin car GPS wanting to send me wrong way down a one way street because of new construction since last database update.

[stiltman]

Quick question. Are you actually receiving channels that antennaweb doesn't list?

This reminds me of Garmin car GPS wanting to send me wrong way down a one way street because of new construction since last database update.

Yep, I get ABC, NBC and PBS but I don't get CBS, FOX
I also get but don't watch TEL and UNI


I would need a VERY large tower for CBS to come in, that I already knew

[edDV]

Quick question. Are you actually receiving channels that antennaweb doesn't list?

This reminds me of Garmin car GPS wanting to send me wrong way down a one way street because of new construction since last database update.

Yep, I get ABC, NBC and PBS but I don't get CBS, FOX
I also get but don't watch TEL and UNI


I would need a VERY large tower for CBS to come in, that I already knew

Then antennaweb needs to get busy. Changes are happening fast.

[Minni]

Wow, alot of action took place on this thread since last I was here (as an aside, I must limit computer time due to my current EMF sensitivity - caused by cumulative years of viewing.)

Anyway, I still think back to the time I had that 13" (or was it 15") black & white Zenith, which I'd then bought at Silver City. The guy there said it's the best, and indeed, I got consistently clear reception on Channels 2-13.

Granted, since then, alot of building has been going on, including a 3-story house next door (though that's more at a downgrade than me, since I'm near the crest of hill, albeit the 3-story house is "closer" to the direction NYC is). But I wonder whether that makes much difference, since even at that time, there were some tall buildings (i.e. senior housing projects) within a mile radius of me in the direction of NYC.

I've also been considering something less drastic, such as placing a corrugated brown carton on top of another carton, then placing the rabbit-ears on there. I can't progress with experimentation, though, until I get a new TV, and that in itself will be a huge hassle given my forementioned situation. I hope that with any updated posting, I have something positive to report.

What I can't understand, is why the TV stations can't broadcast higher up, even after the Twin Towers collapsed.

Is it possible to phone any of those stations to ask them this basic Q? If anyone should know the lay of the land, shouldn't they be the ones? I should think it's in their best interests to provide surrounding people with such info. Or is this a naive assumption?

[MOVIEGEEK]

What I can't understand, is why the TV stations can't broadcast higher up, even after the Twin Towers collapsed.

Because they were the tallest buildings(or mountains) within 200 miles of NYC.Line of site is important for any frequency above 30MHz.
Out west 1,000ft+ mountains are a dime a dozen and are within 30 miles of most cities but on the east coast you don't have that option.

[edDV]

New World Trade Center sometime after 2012. Nothing higher than Empire State Building until then. More tall buildings around you (especially in line of sight to ESB) makes things worse.

You want higher? Call Dish or Direct TV if you have a clear south view. More antennas to deal with.

[edDV]

Out west 1,000ft+ mountains are a dime a dozen and are within 30 miles of most cities but on the east coast you don't have that option.

It ain't all cheer out here. I'm at 3000ft elevation but still need a 900ft mast (according to rabbitears) to get all the nets OTA because I have a ridge behind me. Next best city is 90 miles away but alas currently they're only broadcasting DT at 25KW vs 1000KW for the big boys.

Every house has a story.

[MOVIEGEEK]

It ain't all cheer out here. I'm at 3000ft elevation but still need a 900ft mast (according to rabbitears) to get all the nets OTA because I have a ridge behind me. Next best city is 90 miles away and currently they're only broadcasting DT at 25KW vs 1000KW for the big boys.

Every house has a story.

Yeah but you hillbillies don't have to deal with the crime and smog like us lowlanders.

[edDV]

It ain't all cheer out here. I'm at 3000ft elevation but still need a 900ft mast (according to rabbitears) to get all the nets OTA because I have a ridge behind me. Next best city is 90 miles away and currently they're only broadcasting DT at 25KW vs 1000KW for the big boys.

Every house has a story.

Yeah but you hillbillies don't have to deal with the crime and smog like us lowlanders.

We have our meth crime wave but still can rent out some of the county jail to the flatlanders.

[vhelp]

Hi Minni,

Here's a few tips that might help you in your antenna (OTA) reception scenarios.

TIP #1

I would suggest that you go out and find a good amplified rabbit ear version. They usually
go by db ratings. 25db is prob all you will need, and anything else is prob not going to do
much or any better if not worse. I don't know.., as you'll have to test whatever is avail
to you at the time of your research. Anyway.

Look for models that come with a variable db knob. They are usually better because you
can reduce the strength or feedback.

Next, try and make sure that the model includes the UHF (usuauly 'O' shaped) and after
that, you should be set for testing different direction scenarios.

The purpose of the finding this type of amplified (manage'able) antenna is because you will
need *both* the dipoles and the 'O' (I forget the term for that UHF part. So, 'O' it is) in order
to adjust for maximum signal reception. Believe it or not, on some models the two do work
hand-in-hand. And my guess is that people who use this type of indoor antenna do not
realize this and consiquentially pull in the dipoles and adjust the 'O' when attempting
to tune in for any UHF stations. Anyways. Then, while you are adjusting your antenna
you also have to consider manuvering the whole unit too, not sitting it on its base and only
adjusting the dipoles (left/right) etc.

When using an antenna (any kind) your optimum location is always closest to the window or
wall leading to the outside. Adjusting antennas (specially in distance circumstances) will
more than likely not bring you much signal strength. The closer to the window the better!!

Oh, and don't feel so bad or goofy about it.., I have my attic/outdoor antenna situated on
stacks of empty cardboard boxes closest to the bedroom window.

TIP #2

I know it's rather crude, but its better than nothing..

If you don't have an HDTV or hd tuner box or whatever, HD 'wise with a signal strength
meter of some sort, then here is what you can do to get a rough idea of where to point
your antenna during direction search.

If you have an older generation tv with coax cable (for the analog antenna) you can hook
up your antenna to that tv set and then observe it for signs of possible stations.
It will be tracking for the analog's but that is ok. What you are doing is guaging for where
to point for HD reception. Once you've found those channels that seem to be HD
one's, then you are ready to hook that antenna up to your HD tv/tuner/box and auto-tune
in for any possible hd channels.

Please don't get us wrong about antenna.web -- it does serve as a decent reference (for
most channel line up's) if you want to know what channels might be out there. Other than
that then you have to sior cream it using the above scenarios.

All the best in your BIG-Apple HD endeavors,

-vhelp 4556

[edDV]

The Empire State Building makes an interesting TV mast. It was originally designed to be a dirigible terminal.
Last time I was up there was in the mid 90's. By then the large station's transmitters were mosty at the World Trade Center. Each station had lower power backup transmitters at the ESB but most of the antennas up there were in support of microwave TV news feeds and FM radio. After 911 there was a scramble to get larger analog and DT transmitters up there for improved coverage.

old antennas before addition of DT.
...

This is the view looking up the Hudson.


New Freedom Tower ~2012
http://www.glasssteelandstone.com/BuildingDetail/439.php

[Minni]

Thank y'all for the explanations re: WTC & tips re: decibels, placement near window, etc.

As I said previously, I didn't yet purchase another TV (whether EDTV or HDTV, not sure, but whatever the case, I hope it's chemical-free);
... when I do, I'll be in a better position to tinker around.

As for the altitude factor, I'm curious. Is there an online topographical map anywhere, showing the topography in the surrounding radius of NYC?
Maybe as concentric circles? Granted, Bear Mountains is quite far from there, but there are mountainous areas closer to NYC, so I don't understand why they need to broadcast just from NYC itself.

[edDV]

Topozone
http://www.topozone.com/map.asp?lat=41.10662&lon=-73.94082&datum=nad27&u=4&layer=DRG&size=l&s=1000

You can zoom with the scale controls on the left. Antennaweb is using topo data.

I think your best bet is to get a small telescope and go up surrounding buildings or hills at night and try to see the Empire State Building all lit up. Few others get to find their towers that way. Next closest is Hartford CT about 70 miles away north east. Other options are cable, Dish or DirectTV.

[usually_quiet]

This has been an interesting thread, since I am trying to figure out what to do about an anlog TV in a second-floor bedroom, which is the only one in the house not connected to cable. So far, I have no clear anwer, but I now have a better idea of what my choices are.

@Minni: I don't think most members here are uncaring about your chemical sensitivity issues, but at this site people really make an effort to stay on topic for threads, which in this case is about antennas. You could try starting another thread regarding your other problem, but frankly I think you'd have better luck finding some answers on a site for fellow sufferers. This just isn't something that many of us have ever had to think about.

[Minni]

edDV, you sure know your way around the www
I feel sorta you went thru all that trouble posting the map, since I have a very slow system and small screen so each download takes ages and I can't make out the topography lines the way I did when I once viewed a hard copy topographical map.

In any case, I'm sure there are higher areas such as west, northwest (in NJ), which means they can broadcast from a high building in a more mountainous area, which could virtually equal the height of the Twin Towers.

Whatever the case, please don't worry about it, I shall remain with my curiosity intact

Off-topic: To usually_quiet, thanks for the heads-up or thumbs-up, whatever... Believe me, I'm totally aware the issue is a suppressed one due to the powerlessness of its victims, that's why the companies are given free reign to keep rolling out the nightmares en-masse. Anyway, don't worry - the only reason I continued the off-topic mention in my March_8th post was to explain why I can't tinker yet.

[RabidDog]

Minni.. you sure do whinge a lot.. (johnny Torch)
If someone was really chemically sensitive then they would know smearing peppermint to disguise a smell is worse than doing nothing. (your adding extra chemicals into the air). Buying shaznit off ebay is a gamble(they make all their money off the postage!), not to be taken if you cant afford to a) beat up the swindling seller b) lob it back thru his front window.
Most shops will have a delivery option.. why not contact a local volunteer group/church group or get onto freecycle explaining why you want an outgassed TV. Get some help to put up your loft or roof mounted aerial. Bob a Job week with the local scouts?.

Try the slx6 or this http://www.argos.co.uk/webapp/wcs/stores/servlet/Search?pp=Show+all&s=Price%3A+Low+-+H...d=-1&q=AERIALS
six down, or telecam tce2000 wideband £9.99 or $19.99
I smell victim. and the stink is high.
Too much? or just honest?

[otaota]

As for the altitude factor, I'm curious. Is there an online topographical map anywhere, showing the topography in the surrounding radius of NYC?
Maybe as concentric circles? Granted, Bear Mountains is quite far from there, but there are mountainous areas closer to NYC, so I don't understand why they need to broadcast just from NYC itself.

If you want to see which terrain is blocking NY transmissions, you can try browsing something like this.

Better yet is to download the free program Google Earth and you can visualize everything 3D, which is a far more intuitive way to see what's going on with the terrain in your neighborhood, IMHO.

Chuck

[Minni]

OK, I know it's been a year, but I finally bought another TV (this time 19" Sanyo) after having thrown out that chemical-laden Emerson.

So I looked up this thread again in my Favorites, and browsed the posts.

Update:
On the Sanyo, Channel 7 gives me quite good reception, though even that isn't 100% stable picture. The other channels are staticky and fuzzy pics, worsening even more as I raise the volume.
Note, Though, that I'm using the bare basics:
Composite red/white/yellow cable
RCA Ant111 rabbit-ears with square loop, kindly depicted by edDV above.

AntennaWeb recommends for me medium-directional, and for some stations medium directional with pre-amp. (edDV is right)

To edDV and/or anyone: Despite antennaweb, at this point, does the following strategy make sense?

(1) Try for the Shielded Coax plus Philips Silver Sensor (both via Walmart) and return if the combo doesn't resolve my reception

should I try component or HDMI cables as well?

Philips 12' Quad Shielded Coax:
http://www.walmart.com/catalog/product.do?product_id=7811228#ShortReviewTitleBar
Philips Silver Sensor antenna:
http://www.walmart.com/catalog/product.do?product_id=3904686

(2) If the above coax/antenna (and/or HDMI) don't work:
Find an installer (would they provide all necessary cables & antenna?)
I looked up "antenna installer" in yellow pages, but nothing there. How to find same?
When I spoke with Sanyo phone support, the guy claimed they don't install. On the other hand, while waiting to speak with Sanyo, their automatic voice-system implied that they do provide installation personnel. So which is the truth?

P.S. I'd like to add my heartfelt appreciation for all your helpful advices

[MOVIEGEEK]

Minni,
1a.That Philips coax cable is marketing hype,any RG59 cable will do.RG6 is required for in-wall and outdoor use.
1b.The Philips Silver Sensor gets good reviews if you can still find one.

2.Installing an outdoor antenna will give you the best reception but I would first move the indoor antenna near a window,placing it on the sill if possible.

[edDV]

Is this your new TV?
http://us.sanyo.com/LCD-Televisions/900p-19-HDTV

I don't understand what you would use an HDMI cable for except connection to a DVD player.

Basic antenna connection

>>>>>------------------{PreAmp}----------------[HDTV]############[DVD Player]
antenna

PreAmp is optional
RG6/RG59 cable ------
HDMI cable ###

You will need to experiment with indoor antennas. Ask your neighbors in the building what they use. When analog is shut off you may all panic together. Host an antenna party. Bring your own antenna See which works.

Ignor the analog channels like Channel 7, they go away in a month. Try to tune the digitals.

Current and post Feb 17 DTV channel numbers

WCBS DT CBS 56 33
WNBC DT NBC 28 28
WNYW DT FOX 44 44
WABC DT ABC 45 07
WWOR DT MyN 38 38
WPIX DT CW- 33 11
WNET DT PBS 61 13
WLIW DT PBS 22 21
WNYE DT EDU 24 24
WLIG LD IND -- 26
WPXN DT ION 30 31
WXTV DT UNI 40 40
WSAH DT ETH 42 42
WNJU DT TLM 36 36
WEDW DT PBS 52 49
WNJN DT PBS 51 51
WTBY DT TBN 27 27
WLNY DT IND 57 47
WNJB DT PBS 08 08
WRNN DT IND 48 48
WMBC DT ETH 18 18
WFME DT REL 29 29
WFTY DT FUT 23 23
WFUT DT FUT 53 30

Expect poor service from antennas on the Empire State Building for the next few months while the analog antennas are taken down and new digital antennas are installed.

[edDV]

Most likely, those indoor antennas won't work well.

This is an example of a medium directional outdoor antenna. You need both UHF and upper VHF. It would need approval of your building and professional installation. This would be pointed at the Empire State Building if you have a direct path of sight.
http://www.channelmasterintl.com/terr/DIGITAL%20ADVANTAGEtenna.html
http://www.summitsource.com/product_info.php?ref=1&products_id=7084




You may also need a pre-amplifier like this. The black part mounts on the antenna, the white part goes inside.
http://www.summitsource.com/channel-master-7778-titan-2-uhf-vhf-preamplifier-with-powe...78-p-5723.html

[Minni]

Thanks! In response to your question, yes, that Sanyo link is my TV. I don't want to jump the gun by praising it yet, rather I'm still reserving judgment, having learned a harsh lesson with the reeking Emerson. I will say, though, that operating it is more intuitive & smooth.

Do I take it that I should shop, say at Walmart or Radioshack, for:
RG6 cable, and
RG59 cable?

or rather just one of the above cables (if I try indoor antenna first)?

As for antenna, you're right, it doesn't seem like that Silver Sensor is available anymore at Walmart.

So I'm thinking maybe this?
http://www.radioshack.com/product/index.jsp?productId=2131034

On 2nd thought something so high-tech would probably be prone to problems, not to mention EMFs - I suffer too much from those as it is.

Re: HDMI - silly me I'm a novice thru & thru!

I can't see myself putting one of those monstrosities you pictured outdoors. NO way.
I'll probably wind up needing an installation guy - as if I know where to find one.

[edDV]

RG59 is thinner. OK for indoor antenna. RG6 is heaver Duty for longer runs.

That Radio Shack antenna might work. Point it to Manhattan. Some channels are in New Jersey. Make sure you can return it.

[Minni]

OK, thank you.

The guy at Walmart said they'll soon be getting a supply of analog-digital [indoor] antenna's by RCA or Philips (priced at $30 to $50) which he "claimed" solves many peoples' reception issues.

He claimed it comes complete with necessary cable, and that there's no LED screen, just rabbit ears.

I'm thinking I should take it w/a grain of salt.

[orsetto]

All I did was move the connection from the rusty old "outdoor" antenna (in my second-story attic) from my analog gear to my ATSC hardware. Works like a charm in Southeastern Queens, I'm amazed the digital reception is ten times better than what I got on analog. Yet my relatives in North Brooklyn, within swimming distance of Manhattan and five stories up, get zilch on digital without using a powered indoor antenna they picked up from Radio Shack. Even with that, they can't pick up WNET-13 from Jersey at all. Go figure.

[edDV]

OK, thank you.

The guy at Walmart said they'll soon be getting a supply of analog-digital [indoor] antenna's by RCA or Philips (priced at $30 to $50) which he "claimed" solves many peoples' reception issues.

He claimed it comes complete with necessary cable, and that there's no LED screen, just rabbit ears.

I'm thinking I should take it w/a grain of salt.

You have never described your position relative to the Empire State Building. Are you in a high rise with line of sight, or buried behind other buildings or hills? This is important for choice of antenna vs. just ordering cable and giving up. At your distance you would need near direct line of sight for an indoor antenna to work. Ask around your neighborhood about other's success. And remember, your reception will be worse after Feb 17 while the antennas are replaced on the ESB.

[Minni]

Hi, sorry for the delay (due to my computer intolerance).

In response to yours, I'm not in a high rise, rather in a ranch-style house, and there probably are high-buildings as obstacles. I am, though, on the crest of a hill.

Are you saying that in such an instance, even an attic antenna might not work, but rather only cable would cut it, especially due to the advent of digital broadcasting?

I recently phoned Walmart again, and a girl told me they have in stock these models:

http://www.amazon.com/Philips-SDV2750-27-Amplified-Superior/dp/B001HVRAK4

She also read off: RCA 1837GM (which I can't seem to find via google

I don't see myself going cable, due to the expense, nor even rooftop (unless maybe there's something inconspicuous).