HP DVD+R Double Layer Discs

[budz]

^^^^Talking bubbles dude.....

[Noahtuck]

I don't recall any recent poll, but there are far more members here nearing retirement age than teenagers. Some are professionals in a specialist video field (e.g. Lord Smurf, edDV, et. al.). Others have been video hobbyists of one sort or another for many years. So many of them know a thing or two.

If you understand how recordable reactive-dye optical media works, you realize it's a wonder that *dual-layer* DVD+/-R-DL works at all. Empirically, dual-layer media is never as reliable as single-layer media, but Verbatim is acceptable. Nothing else comes close. Use what you want, you were warned.

I almost replied within minutes of him posting, but i decided not to waste my time telling him the faults of his "wise" post and just wrote him off as a clueless one post wonder troll......

Nice. And you've been on these boards for nine years? Oh well...

I apologize, it was not my intention to confuse you.
So exactly what do you not understand ?

budz,

[lordsmurf]

I don't mean to come off rude, but when somebody starts spouting off myth and misinformation, I refuse to stand idle and watch it. Excelsius, you're spouting baloney, and you're trying to argue with people who have expertise in this area. Expertise you clearly lack.

Seeing that Verbatim is the only viable choice is as reading the many results on a Google search:"DVD+R DL burning problems". Countless thousands of people have problems with non-Verbatim discs. To think you're some sort of special exception to the rule (or that your rules supercedes everybody else) is daft.

In the right drive, with the right firmware, with a well-manufactured disc, sure, those CMC and RITEK DL discs are fine. But that's a lot of if's and but's to get through. CMC and RITEK are both notoriously hit-or-miss on disc quality (inevitable coaster counts, and variation between batches -- real batches, mind you), and then the whole 2P vs IS problem, on top of the drives themselves varying and being stubborn. It's a mess.

Even the manufactures know about their problems with their DL media, it's not a secret. Why do you think Taiyo Yuden has more or less stayed away from +DL media? Verbatim has decided to play it safe, using a more expensive disc assembly process, but they do so at the advantage of having a much higher success rate compared to the bulk low-cost suppliers CMC and Ritek.

I have access to quite a bit of data, but it's not free public information (no more than Coke gives out its recipe for free online). You'll have to suffice with overwhelming user feedback posted online, pay somebody for their research, or get off your ass and do your own qualified quantifiable research. Demanding somebody give you or do "scientific research" for you is juvenile.

Comprende?

Es obvio que no hablas/escribes español. Usas gramática mala. No usas, por favor. Párate.

have had no problems either with burning or playback in three different DVDs

Wow, 3 whole DVD players! Gee whiz, that's a lot.

If you don't value your data and are a cheapskate, good for you, buy whatever you want.
The rest of us are not that foolish.

[JohnnyBob]

Excelsius - now you see what happens when you try to think for yourself? The established cronies here will try to shoot you down. It happens to the best of us so don't take it personally. They're only serving their own egos. Disregard whatever they say (it's not factual) and you'll be wiser for it!

As for Verbatim being the best available DVD media, I agree, both the single layer and DL kinds. But you can't trust them absolutely. I've had some bad batches of Verbatums, very poor quality scans. Sure they usually burn and verify but their poor quality scans leaves a lot in doubt about how long they'll last. The only solution I've found is to never buy in big lots, only in small amounts. I used to buy like a year's supply in advance but got stuck with dudd discs more than once, so no more. It's always a crap shoot so don't risk very much at a time.

[lordsmurf]

poor quality scans

Again: https://forum.videohelp.com/threads/313026-Black-Friday-deal-on-Verbatim-discs?p=193748...=1#post1937480
The kind of scans you do have limited value.

It's about as accurate as astrology.

If that's how you want to judge a disc, you may as well write the disc's "birthday" on the label, and then look up it's sign for the week: http://astrology.horoscope.com/free-daily-horoscopes.html

You could also consult a psychic.

[JohnnyBob]

That's what I mean. Best to ignore everything the little lord says, all of which is pure nonsense! The same for his pseudosite, digitalfaq, pure hogwash.

[filmboss80]

Why are you getting so defensive and touchy?

Hilarious! Who's the one bumping his own posts with all the verbose diatribes, filled with name-calling? You remind me of the typical insecure fellow who is so desperate to win an argument he will expend all sorts of time and energy trying to restrict the rules of a debate he cannot win.

...ALWAYS keep in mind that your insights are unscientific...

Having either written or co-written 3 published articles in scientific journals during a biomedical education and research stint in the 1990s, I can assure you that surveys from participants with real world experience are as highly valued as lab experiments -- more so when those lab settings fail to anticipate every possible variable offered in a real-world setting. In so many ways, this forum provides an informal survey of users in real-world settings. That may not fit your narrow, limited definition of "science," but it has validity.

This is a forum. It's about opinions and reports of experiences. My opinions were based on business experiences that hit my pocket-book. I did not need to conduct your lab experiment in order to find out what worked and what did not.

And now, I'll sit back and await your next long-winded dissertation on why I, and others on this forum, are such idiots. I'm sure you're chomping at the bit to get the last word in.

[LJB]

Excelsius - now you see what happens when you try to think for yourself? The established cronies here will try to shoot you down. It happens to the best of us so don't take it personally. They're only serving their own egos. Disregard whatever they say (it's not factual) and you'll be wiser for it!

As for Verbatim being the best available DVD media, I agree, both the single layer and DL kinds. But you can't trust them absolutely. I've had some bad batches of Verbatums, very poor quality scans. Sure they usually burn and verify but their poor quality scans leaves a lot in doubt about how long they'll last. The only solution I've found is to never buy in big lots, only in small amounts. I used to buy like a year's supply in advance but got stuck with dudd discs more than once, so no more. It's always a crap shoot so don't risk very much at a time.

Please leave your ego at the door when entering this forum
Thanks to the help I receive from these experts that you are in such a rush to belittle, I have stopped producing coasters
My content comes from my flip camera and I buy my verbs +R DLs at my local SAM's Club for $60/Spindle of 50.
I beleive if my math is correct, that's equal to $0.83/blank.
(That's $1.87 less than the previously mentioned $2.70 per blank.)

As far as this novice is concerned, what lordsmurf says has always been the correct answer.
His advice always leads me to a solution.
When was the last time you gave a correct answer to a novice?
I'll end with this final thought: Use what ever you want to use, they're your coasters, not mine.

[Excelsius]

I don't mean to come off rude, but when somebody starts spouting off myth and misinformation, I refuse to stand idle and watch it. Excelsius, you're spouting baloney, and you're trying to argue with people who have expertise in this area. Expertise you clearly lack.

Seeing that Verbatim is the only viable choice is as reading the many results on a Google search:"DVD+R DL burning problems". Countless thousands of people have problems with non-Verbatim discs. To think you're some sort of special exception to the rule (or that your rules supercedes everybody else) is daft.

In the right drive, with the right firmware, with a well-manufactured disc, sure, those CMC and RITEK DL discs are fine. But that's a lot of if's and but's to get through. CMC and RITEK are both notoriously hit-or-miss on disc quality (inevitable coaster counts, and variation between batches -- real batches, mind you), and then the whole 2P vs IS problem, on top of the drives themselves varying and being stubborn. It's a mess.

Even the manufactures know about their problems with their DL media, it's not a secret. Why do you think Taiyo Yuden has more or less stayed away from +DL media? Verbatim has decided to play it safe, using a more expensive disc assembly process, but they do so at the advantage of having a much higher success rate compared to the bulk low-cost suppliers CMC and Ritek.

I have access to quite a bit of data, but it's not free public information (no more than Coke gives out its recipe for free online). You'll have to suffice with overwhelming user feedback posted online, pay somebody for their research, or get off your ass and do your own qualified quantifiable research. Demanding somebody give you or do "scientific research" for you is juvenile.

Comprende?

Es obvio que no hablas/escribes español. Usas gramática mala. No usas, por favor. Párate.

have had no problems either with burning or playback in three different DVDs

Wow, 3 whole DVD players! Gee whiz, that's a lot.

If you don't value your data and are a cheapskate, good for you, buy whatever you want.
The rest of us are not that foolish.

I am sorry if my Spanish isn't good enough for you. Por lo menos yo sé cómo deletrear en inglés, más allá de nivel de escuela secundaria. Es "supersede," no "supercede."

Other than that and your voodoo access to data about quality that is not available to public (are you serious?), you probably would have been better off to stand aside. What exactly did you add? That there is some ghost data somewhere showing DVD media quality to which you have access to but the public can't see? Digging a deeper and deeper hole for yourself. Coke has secret because it is a recipe. Quality tests are never a secret.

So now I am a cheapskate too? Hahaha. Anything else? To stop this nonsense about data: we are NOT talking about data. We're talking about copying various media, be it movies, games, or even your own movies. If you are talking about data backup and are using expensive DVDs for that, you're back in the stone ages and it's a totally different discussion. There reliable HDs for that, redundant backup mechanisms, RAID arrays, etc. A backup on a DVD AS WELL is fine for data, but it is only a backup for a backup, never primary. As such, the importance of it is significantly less.

[Excelsius]

poor quality scans

Again: https://forum.videohelp.com/threads/313026-Black-Friday-deal-on-Verbatim-discs?p=193748...=1#post1937480
The kind of scans you do have limited value.

It's about as accurate as astrology.

If that's how you want to judge a disc, you may as well write the disc's "birthday" on the label, and then look up it's sign for the week: http://astrology.horoscope.com/free-daily-horoscopes.html

You could also consult a psychic.

I am going to bring this up again: you guys in this forum are so indocrinated by the superiority of your opinions that you do not even care to read any of the threads in here. That link that you provded was already given by VegasDude. I care not to reiterate my response. If you care, read my response to his "evidence." If you don't care, then don't waste our time here by posting the same thing over and over again. Trend much in here?

By the way, I'm Pisces.

[Excelsius]

...

...ALWAYS keep in mind that your insights are unscientific...

Having either written or co-written 3 published articles in scientific journals during a biomedical education and research stint in the 1990s, I can assure you that surveys from participants with real world experience are as highly valued as lab experiments -- more so when those lab settings fail to anticipate every possible variable offered in a real-world setting. In so many ways, this forum provides an informal survey of users in real-world settings. That may not fit your narrow, limited definition of "science," but it has validity.

This is a forum. It's about opinions and reports of experiences. My opinions were based on business experiences that hit my pocket-book. I did not need to conduct your lab experiment in order to find out what worked and what did not.

And now, I'll sit back and await your next long-winded dissertation on why I, and others on this forum, are such idiots. I'm sure you're chomping at the bit to get the last word in.

Why is it that when you are asked to back up your claims you automatically assume that you are being called an idiot? If you have been a researcher indeed, then you would not have taken offense at my probing questions. I am in research myself and the field can vary, depending on the type. If you're doing clinical research, then yes, many times opinions are important because there is not precise process. I don't deal with that. Furthermore, there is nothing difficult in this particular case and rigorous scientific tests can be applied. This doesn't mean that opinion doesn't matter, but like I said, it is unscientific and has many flaws. For example, if you claim that you have been in the DVD distribution business over the years and have seen many problems with non-MKM disks, that is good data; however, technology changes very vast and unless you use many non-MKM disks every year to see if they have improved, your data is way out-of-data. I mean when was the last time any of you indocrtinaires here even bought a non-MKM DL DVD? Again, this reasoning has so many holes that it would never get to the publication level.

[lordsmurf]

technology changes very vast

Some things change fast, some do not. Blank media crawls at a snail's pace. Specs are very rigid, there is long R&D lead time, and few new products are released in any given year. Even then, to call it "new" is a bit of a stretch, seeing how it's mostly incremental updates to the previous x-speed disc. If anything, there is far less now than there was 5 years ago. Of course, you'd know that if you'd been burning since the inception of the technology, like many of us have.

Use whatever you want to use -- it's your coasters, not mine.

I don't have time to argue with an idiot.

[Excelsius]

Excelsius - now you see what happens when you try to think for yourself? The established cronies here will try to shoot you down. It happens to the best of us so don't take it personally. They're only serving their own egos. Disregard whatever they say (it's not factual) and you'll be wiser for it!

As for Verbatim being the best available DVD media, I agree, both the single layer and DL kinds. But you can't trust them absolutely. I've had some bad batches of Verbatums, very poor quality scans. Sure they usually burn and verify but their poor quality scans leaves a lot in doubt about how long they'll last. The only solution I've found is to never buy in big lots, only in small amounts. I used to buy like a year's supply in advance but got stuck with dudd discs more than once, so no more. It's always a crap shoot so don't risk very much at a time.

Please leave your ego at the door when entering this forum
Thanks to the help I receive from these experts that you are in such a rush to belittle, I have stopped producing coasters
My content comes from my flip camera and I buy my verbs +R DLs at my local SAM's Club for $60/Spindle of 50.
I beleive if my math is correct, that's equal to $0.83/blank.
(That's $1.87 less than the previously mentioned $2.70 per blank.)

As far as this novice is concerned, what lordsmurf says has always been the correct answer.
His advice always leads me to a solution.
When was the last time you gave a correct answer to a novice?
I'll end with this final thought: Use what ever you want to use, they're your coasters, not mine.

Let me help you with your math too: that comes out to $1.20 per disk, i.e., 50% more than what you estimated. You can go to Start-->all programs-->accessories-->calculator. Or you can just type "60/50" in google. What you did there was divide 50 by 60, which tells nothing other than how many DVDs you get for a buck, not how much one DVD costs. So your result of 0.83 is 0.83 DVDs, not 0.83 dollars.

When someone is technically challenged or is unwilling to research claims made to him or made by him before accepting or promulgating them, it doesn't constitute any reliable data and further derails the community. This is why, once again, opinions mean nothing. If you're making a claim, show the data. Even if it is based on "experience," it would still help you to show that 50 customers used MKM and got X coasters and 50 customers used Ritek and got Y errors. Honesty would come into play here, of course.

[Excelsius]

technology changes very vast

Something change fast, some do not. Blank media crawls at a snail's pace. Specs are very rigid, there is long R&D lead time, and few new products are released in any given year. Even then, to call it "new" is a bit of a stretch, seeing how it's mostly incremental updates to the previous x-speed disc. If anything, there is far less now than there was 5 years ago. Of course, you'd know that if you'd been burning since the inception of the technology, like many of us have.

Use whatever you want to use -- it's your coasters, not mine.

I don't have time to argue with an idiot.

That's much appreciated.

Re: coasters - my arsenal of 60-80 DL Ritek DVDs says otherwise.

[VegasBud]

It's always a balancing act. While not feeding trolls is the traditional approach (for good reason), there's a point at which "All that is required for evil to triumph is for good men to do nothing" becomes the overriding concern. People come here to learn. If misinformation isn't confronted, some of those people may be misled as to the truth of the matter at hand, and subsequently mislead others.

I'm hoping that if the absurd nature of this person's diatribe is made clear, the innocent readers of this thread will be less likely to be contaminated by nonsense.

To that end:

Do you see why we need a scientific method(?)

Scientific method, without the means to collect reliable data, or to verify the hypothesis, is nothing more than pseudoscience (fake science, phony science, crap science, etc.). Implying otherwise adds intellectual dishonesty to your list of "credentials".

VegasDude...

My username is VegasBud, not VegasDude. If you can't even get that right, it's not surprising you're getting everything else wrong.

...I could probably spend pages and pages showing to you how every single one of your points is not only wrong, but illogical.

I have no doubt that you "could probably spend pages and pages", but you would be unable to dispute any of the information (complete with cited references) I provided...which is why you don't even try.

You basically concluded that our regular drives are so bad that they cannot tell the difference in quality between Verbatim and any other DVD...

No, I didn't. Try reading it again.

...yet Verbatim is the best! Do understand what you did there?

I never said "Verbatim is the best" based on pseudoscientific "testing". I base the claim on credible anecdotal evidence. You're comparing apples and oranges as a means to cloud (and thereby dismiss) the truth.

I asked about evidence that TDK is inferior in quality...

I said that there is no scientific evidence showing that ritek S04 is "crap.

Read...what...I...said. There can be no "scientific evidence" using consumer equipment...not now...not ever.

Actual scientific testing of media quality is expensive, both in the cost of the equipment and the caliber of the personnel required to interpret the raw test results. Who, exactly, could justify such an expenditure merely to provide the results to the general public, who are unlikely to even be able to correctly understand what the finding were? Nobody...that's who. It's an unwarranted waste of resources, and clearly grounds for termination.

Your continuing insistence on using the lack of scientific evidence as an argument only emphasizes how ill-informed you are.

Quality tests are never a secret.

That's ridiculous. Media quality control by the manufacturers would be impossible without quality testing, however the results are kept in-house. If you want to dispute that, I invite you to post even one link to such tests. Furthermore, on the few occasions the NIST has published reports on the subject, only the CATS data is released, with the media manufacturers' names concealed.

If you are talking about data backup and are using expensive DVDs for that, you're back in the stone ages...There reliable HDs for that, redundant backup mechanisms, RAID arrays, etc. A backup on a DVD AS WELL is fine for data, but it is only a backup for a backup, never primary.

That's also wrong. The redundant backup of critical data includes the use of different storage mediums. At this point in time, dvd has firmly established its' viability as a backup medium. Using dvd media of questionable quality for that purpose would be much worse than incompetent. Data backup, which (by definition) MUST be bit-accurate, has far less tolerance for error than dvd-video.

I haven't bought Verbatim in years...

Re: coasters - my arsenal of 60-80 DL Ritek DVDs says otherwise.

You've been using el-cheapo dl media "for years", yet you only have "60-80" of them...and that's the basis for your ludicrous claim that el-cheapo dl media is just as good as Verbatim?

[LJB]

[QUOTE=lordsmurf;1978066]

Use whatever you want to use -- it's your coasters, not mine.

Lordsmurf has the knowledge to give solid advice. His record of assisting people leads the way for novices to learn.

Why argue? If you disagree with something, express yourself and be done with it.

You seem like the type of person who argues in order to gain attention.

I truly do feel sorry for you.
You must have a difficult time going through life.

[Excelsius]

...

Scientific method, without the means to collect reliable data, or to verify the hypothesis, is nothing more than pseudoscience (fake science, phony science, crap science, etc.). Implying otherwise adds intellectual dishonesty to your list of "credentials".

My username is VegasBud, not VegasDude. If you can't even get that right, it's not surprising you're getting everything else wrong.

...you would be unable to dispute any of the information (complete with cited references) I provided...which is why you don't even try.

....

I never said "Verbatim is the best" based on pseudoscientific "testing". I base the claim on credible anecdotal evidence.
...

I think the above bolded statements provide a good response to what you said. You are indeed far removed from the sciences. There is no such thing as "credible" anecdotal evidence. What an oxymoron. Look up the definition of an anecdote, please. And thank you for admitting that all these claims here without data are indeed pseudocience and crap.

Ah, the irony of miscomprehension. VegasDude is my pet name for you. Were you honestly not able to figure it out or is this accusation just another convenience? For Willy's sake don't answer that, please. It's a rhetorical question.

You might or might not know, but libel and slander are considered to be a crime. So if you guys here are really the experts you think you are, I would dare you to make your "TDK crap" comments using your real names - be it in this forum, in the news, in a blog, or somewhere else. Do you know what would happen to you? That's right, you would be threatened with a lawsuit for defaming and required to recant every BS statement you put out there without a significant backup. So if you want to continue this nonsense conversation and pretend that you are lions behind your little computer screens, go ahead. After all, it takes an intelligent and an inquisitive mind to be able to break free from the everyday, monolithic bandwagon. It also takes courage to acknowledge that your methods are not full-proof and that you do have a margin of error. All I have been hearing is complaints and demonizations, as if everything I say does not hold even the slightest truth. In real life, what would happen is that I after a couple of short sentences I would be able to figure out who you are and the conversation would be over. I am not here to proselytize you. Intelligence is far from being sufficient when you are trying to convert a Christian into an atheist. This discussion is for the benefit of those who will land in this very same thread in the future via Google, just like I did, and will find that there is at least some dissent about various media. The posts are lacking more and more intelligence and quality and it is not helping your case when you are attacking the person instead of the issue.

The conclusion of this thread is this: there is no reliable evidence that TDK DLs (RItek S04 type) are "crap" and that the only good DL disks are Verbatim/MKM. Such comments are based purely on opinions and experience that would not pass even the laxest scientific standards. There is also a high probability of hearsay - new members listen to what other members say about media and become true converts based on some random posts alone, rather than their own experience. Such opinions have no value.

At this point this thread has been open for several days and not even a semblance of data has been presented. Case closed and thank you for your participation and opinions.

[filmboss80]

This forum has been going for what -- 11 years? Over that time, many contributors like lordsmurf have built long track records of credibility. Of course, if one chooses not to trust one particular person's opinion (track record or not), usually it will suffice to explore the consensus built by a vast number of other reliable people, based on their shared experiences.

But now a person who joined the forum a few days ago seems to be suggesting that none of our advice or assertions will carry any water anymore unless we present precisely-collected, thoroughly documented, verified, notarized, and peer-reviewed scientific data. And if we don't jump through his hoops and meet his criteria, our statements have no credibility; and thus, we have no business posting on this forum.

I guess it's all over for VideoHelp, since none of what we say is worth a bucket of spit to Excelsius, who is clearly more brilliant and authoritative than the rest of us mortals.

Sigh...

[lordsmurf]

Y but libel and slander are considered to be a crime. .......That's right, you would be threatened with a lawsuit for defaming and required to recant every BS statement you put out there without a significant backup.

Your knowledge of media law is even less than your knowledge of blank media.

For starters, it's not a "crime" unless you're living in a third-world country.
And beyond that, there are quite a few defenses to this tort.

The first concept is called "fair comment and criticism"
Example definitions:

Fair comment on a matter of public interest, arguments made with an honest belief in their soundness on a matter of public interest are defendable against a defamation claim; if a reasonable person could honestly entertain such an opinion, the statement is protected.

a comment must be based on facts truly stated and must not contain imputations of corrupt or dishonourable motives on the person whose conduct is criticized, save insofar as such imputations are warranted by the facts

Some examples:

• Protected: CMC and Ritek make shitty media.
• Not Protected: CMC and Ritek purposely make shitty media.
• Protected: I sometimes wonder if CMC and Ritek purposely make shitty media. (further context needed to show opinion)

In some jurisdictions, it's simply referred to as "opinion"

A defense recognized in most jurisdictions is "opinion". If the person makes a statement of opinion as opposed to fact, the statement may not support a cause of action for defamation. Whether a statement is viewed as an expression of fact or opinion can depend upon context

Freedom of speech is not absolute, no, but neither does threat of defamation castrate your ability to express opinion.

Beyond that, "truth" is a protection, and it's not hard to prove problems with the media, simply based on the obvious number of internet-wide complaints about the discs.

This is another strong consideration:

The publicity that results from a defamation lawsuit can create a greater audience [sic] For example, if a newspaper or news show picks up the story of the lawsuit, [sic] accusations that were previously known to only a small number of people may suddenly become known to the entire community, nation, or even to the world. ..... Another big issue is that defamation cases tend to be difficult to win, and damage awards tend to be small. As a result, it is unusual for attorneys to be willing to take defamation cases on a contingent fee basis, and the fees expended in litigating even a successful defamation action can exceed the total recovery. .... Another significant concern is that, even where the statements made by the defendant are entirely false, it may not be possible for a plaintiff to prove all of the elements of defamation. Most people will respond to news that a plaintiff lost a defamation lawsuit by concluding that the allegations were true..... In other words, the plaintiff in a defamation action may be required to expend a considerable amount of money to bring the action, may experience significant negative publicity which repeats the [sic] accusations, and if unsuccessful in the litigation may cement into the public consciousness the belief that the defamatory accusations were true.

I would dare you to make your "TDK crap" comments using your real names

Been there, done that.

TDK is a major corporation, and journalists are the 4th estate. There is nothing to fear here. My jurisdiction also abides by the ideal of "defamation per quod", which puts extra burden of proof on the plaintiff. Many places also have anti-SLAPP laws that allow for summary dismissal by defendants. New York Times v Sullivan may also apply, depending on several variables.

You must not buy a lot of newspapers, or magazines. Everybody prints reviews, and that includes negative reviews. Then again, you don't appear to be big on reading, judging from your uneducated misinformation.

I don't take any pleasure in making you look stupid, you do this to yourself.

[lordsmurf]

As far as this novice is concerned, what lordsmurf says has always been the correct answer.
His advice always leads me to a solution..

Thanks.

Helping folks out is the only reason I come here.
I like sharing knowledge with others, as it's (sadly) not done that often by others in the field.

[davidcw]

Hi,
Having used Ritek+DL discs previously and having had about 10% failures with them, I decided in future to avoid them as they were unreliable.

However, I have just tried some new Ritek SO4-66+DL discs and they seem to be a different disc with none of the inconsistencies of the older discs. I assumed they had finally sorted out their manufacturing problems.

davidcw

[lordsmurf]

However, I have just tried some new Ritek SO4-66+DL discs and they seem to be a different disc with none of the inconsistencies of the older discs. I assumed they had finally sorted out their manufacturing problems.

Be wary, and make no assumptions. CMC and RITEK have a years-old reputation for making discs that seem to work okay one time, but terrible the next time you buy a pack. Many of us consider the media unreliable, for this reason.

[souper]

lordsmurf you and your site are hogwash, and you don't deserve any donations (lordsmurf you never seem to make valid points, you just trail off about other shit, without providing evidence). That being said, I don't think you're understanding that as a consumer you can't really tell the "quality" of the disc. All you can tell how reliable the disc is, by if it burns or fails, and if it plays in different dvd players/drives. The actual quality is how long the disc will last before failing which is upto to debate. As far as dual layers go, for me its verbatim>ritek>everything else is crap. I can tell you never had a verbatim that failed burning, but i got a batch that had problems working in different dvd players, which other verbatims worked. As far as riteks go, failed burning discs, disc that burn succesfully and then fail at a later date. But thats one batch, then I get another that I burned them all succesfully and then they still work fine. All those disc quality scans mean next to nothing, and shouldn't be taken seriously. Point is the consumer only can judge if they fail or not, not the actual "quality" of the discs.

[CobraPilot]

From http://www.quotegarden.com/speaking.html

Never argue with a fool, onlookers may not be able to tell the difference. ~Author unknown, attributed to Mark Twain

When you're arguing with a fool, make sure he isn't doing the same thing. ~Author Unknown

Discussion is an exchange of knowledge; argument an exchange of ignorance. ~Robert Quillen

Never miss a good chance to shut up. ~Will Rogers

It is better to keep one's mouth shut and be thought a fool than to open it and resolve all doubt. ~Abraham Lincoln

[lordsmurf]

Hello souper --- person that just registered and only has 1 post.

I don't think you're understanding that as a consumer you can't really tell the "quality" of the disc.

Are you even reading my posts? Your quote is the same thing I've been saying. Well, sort of... keep reading.

All you can tell how reliable the disc is, by if it burns or fails, and if it plays in different dvd players/drives.

Precisely. However, some of the scan testing does have useful results.
This is explained at How to Test the Burn Quality of CD/DVD Media

The actual quality is how long the disc will last before failing which is upto to debate.

It's only up to debate amongst people that don't know any better. There has been adequate research by manufacturers (Verbatim, Sony), as well as research bodies (NIST, OSTA, LOC). The results of many of these studies can be found online, although it's not dummy-friendly material that outright says "DVD+R DL will last for 50 years" for laymen. You need some knowledge of optical media to wade through the analysis.

As far as dual layers go, for me its verbatim>ritek>everything else is crap.

Uh-huh, yeah. I'd further narrow this down by saying: Verbatim = first, everything else = crap

I can tell you never had a verbatim that failed burning,

Sure, everybody gets coasters, no disc is perfect.

but i got a batch that had problems working in different dvd players,

A batch of discs is a few hundred thousand discs, not a spindle. A "bad batch" is generally caught by Verbatim before hitting market. Verbatim Europe has stated this before in interviews that have appeared online, if you want to find "proof". (This is where overprint media can be sourced from.)

As far as riteks go, failed burning discs, disc that burn succesfully and then fail at a later date.

No. Upon investigation, the so-called "disappeared data" is generally still there, the issue lies with hardware. In other cases, it's unfounded assertions that the disc was even good to begin with. To have a disc "go bad" is rather rare. If you're that lucky, start buying lottery tickets. However, in the very few cases where I've seen mysterious data, it was almost always a Ritek disc -- something that I do think is worth mentioning.

But thats one batch, then I get another that I burned them all succesfully and then they still work fine.

It has nothing to do with a "batch" as much as it's just not a reliable product with consistency. If I went to the store and had a choice between Brand A and Brand B milk, where Brand B was half the price of Brand A, would it be wise to buy Brand B just because it's cheaper, when you randomly get a spoiled gallon every few times? Of course not, so I don't understand why people do that with discs.

All those disc quality scans mean next to nothing, and shouldn't be taken seriously.

Again, I don't think you've read any of my posts. This is the same thing I've been saying. However, there are still a number of things that can be analyzed in rough form on consumer drives, although reference drives give more accurate results. The rough data has value. The problem comes when somebody insists the rough data is absolute data.

Point is the consumer only can judge if they fail or not, not the actual "quality" of the discs

Yes and no. The "quality" of media can most certainly be ascertained by the quantity of media that fails in various scenarios. Burn 100,000 discs -- you'll see obvious trends. Nobody cares if a disc is "50% quality" if it doesn't work. Even a disc that is "99% quality" would be a bad disc, if it has unreadable sectors. There are also quite a few non-software tests that can return valuable data on the quality of a disc.


I seem to be repeating myself now. I think I'm done with this thread.

[lordsmurf]

Never argue with a fool, onlookers may not be able to tell the difference. ~Author unknown, attributed to Mark Twain
Discussion is an exchange of knowledge; argument an exchange of ignorance. ~Robert Quillen
Never miss a good chance to shut up. ~Will Rogers

Yes, but...

It's always a balancing act. While not feeding trolls is the traditional approach (for good reason), there's a point at which "All that is required for evil to triumph is for good men to do nothing" becomes the overriding concern. People come here to learn. If misinformation isn't confronted, some of those people may be misled as to the truth of the matter at hand, and subsequently mislead others.

Much like VegasBud, I hate to see people misled by BS (or worse, propaganda)
"To sin by silence when they should protest makes cowards of men." ~ Ella Wheeler Wilcox (not Abe Lincoln)

That said, however, I think VB and myself have finished here, we've made our points.

[filmboss80]

Red Flag! When someone just joins a forum, and their very first post is something like this:

lordsmurf you and your site are hogwash...

...you can pretty much count on this being a disgruntled past participant who, under a different identity, was either previously banned or made a fool of him-/herself to the point of losing all credibility. LOL -- If this site is "hogwash," why would you become a member?

That's the second one that just appeared out of nowhere on this specific thread. Highly unusual, and highly suspicious.

[redwudz]

This thread seems to have run it's course. Locked.