Cannot retrieve vital video frames for court case! Equipment buying spree?

[koopak]

"TBC, VCR, DNR, FFS assist me in buying more acronyms!"

Hi, thank god for this forum, particularly Mr Smurf, you have been of great assistance for years and especially these last few weeks!

I have tapes to restore, and I was trying REALLY hard to not get too financially invested, but it now seems inevitable.

I live in Australia and all my work is in PAL, this complicates the advice I get off this forum, so without further ado, the scenario:

I have a whole range of tapes, from good-as-the-day-they-were-recorded to tapes that have been slightly mangled by the VCRs they were played in and are in desperate need of TBC.

I have bought an NV-FS200 (Pan AG-1980 for PAL I think), I currently have 3 capture cards, the best of which is my PCI-express Expresscard Hybrid by AVERmedia. I'm about to buy a Canopus ADVC300, but now I need advice from people here!

I have one particular important tape (friend involved in accident, legal issue, hence now spending money), the vital area near the collision has been distorted by a VCR, so it needs beyond the usual recovery.

At first I used ye $100 new VCR, but its resolution was terrible (see screen attached) and way overexposed, BUT, it played through the distorted areas without much issue. My new Panasonic captures the image beautifully, BUT, gets thrown for six with or without internal TBC every time it hits the damaged area of the tape. Internal TBC makes the stability MUCH worse?!

Question (finally, check the screen shots attached): What should I buy next? A Canopus ADVC300 (I'm renting one this weekend to see if it'll help)? A TBC1000 or AVT-8710, or should I trawl Ebay for a DVD-Recorder for full frame correction? I've got my eye on a "Panasonic DVD Recorder DMR-ES10", but is there any other recorders to buy that have 1080i upscaling in PAL (PAL equivalents of RD-XS52 or RD-KX50 -> can these ouput in PAL?)

Finally, should I get a JVC-SVHS, or even a Mitsubishi DVHS? Is my Panasonic playing up (wet cleaning tape didn't seem to improve anything)? Do you know where to get these in Australia and what models for PAL to get, Ebay trawling has returned nothing and I'm starting to run out of time (for the legal tape).

Thanks y'all, for any and all help, much appreciated!


Frame 1 - Original $100 VCR (above)


Frame 1 - Panasonic FS200 - No TBC (above)


Frame 1 - Panasonic FS200 - TBC On (above)

------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------


Frame 2 - Original $100 VCR (above)


Frame 2 - Panasonic FS200 - No TBC (above)


Frame 2 - Panasonic FS200 - TBC On (above)

------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------


Frame 3 - Original $100 VCR (above)


Frame 3 - Panasonic FS200 - No TBC (above)


Frame 3 - Panasonic FS200 - TBC On (above)

------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------


Frame 4 - Original $100 VCR (above)


Frame 4 - Panasonic FS200 - No TBC (above)


Frame 4 - Panasonic FS200 - TBC On (above)

------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------


Frame 5 - Original $100 VCR (above)


Frame 5 - Panasonic FS200 - No TBC (above)


Frame 5 - Panasonic FS200 - TBC On (above)

------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------


Frame 6 - Original $100 VCR (above)


Frame 6 - Panasonic FS200 - No TBC (above)


Frame 6 - Panasonic FS200 - TBC On (above)

[koopak]

Oh probably should mention, what I posted above was a sequence of 6 VITAL frames captured with the 2 VCRs (and the Panasonic with and without the TBC), so it goes:

Frame 1 -> Cheap VCR
Frame 1 -> Panasonic No TBC
Frame 1 -> Panasonic TBC
Frame 2 -> Cheap VCR
Frame 2 -> Panasonic No TBC
Frame 2 -> Panasonic TBC
etc...

I'm aware that my panasonic capture is quite dark, that part is intentional -> really need to see into the overexposed areas, the underexposed areas aren't nearly as important!

This is a time lapse security footage (time ratio 1:9 on a PAL VHS recorder), so I got these frames by:
1) Doing 25fps/50i capture
2) Using TMPEGenc to "deinterlace with double frame rate", so the fields are converted into frames using "adjusted interpolation"
3) Resulting frames run real time at about 5.55555 fps.

Thanks!

[zoobie]

have you considered a professional lab?

[themaster1]

wow good luck proving something with that

But what's strange is i thought tapes from security cameras weren't like normal tapes (dubbing speed is different ) and thus needing to be played with a dedicated player (?). I guess i was wrong .

[2Bdecided]

Can you play it OK connected directly to a TV with any of these VCRs?

If so, try recording it off screen using a camcorder before you wear the tape out.

It'll be tricky to get it to work well - especially as each field is unique and important - but it can be done. You'll probably have to splice fields back mid-field digitally, as the camcorder won't be in sync with the TV.

Cheers,
David.

[oldandinthe way]

Here in the US an opposing attorney would have a field day challanging any computer manipulation of the original tape.

Before you do anything else which could alter the original you should seek legal advice.

My personal temptation would be to borrow every old VCR I could looking for one which does better.

That failed I'd buy every new one I could find and return all that did no better.

Sometimes problems of this type are caused by head misalignment in the original recorder, it is conceivable you might find an old recorder which is misaligned in the same direction and will yield superior results.

[koopak]

Thanks guys.

No, these security tapes (as far as I've been able to work out) are just 100% standard VHS tapes, no VCR can tell that they're recorded any different from normal tapes, and they play back just fine on a normal TV. The only exception is that the VCR is rigged to go 9X slower than usual and the timing chip in the camera instructs the CMOS in the camera to send a signal 9X less often.

So for decoding purposes, I just need to slow it down and separate fields into frames.

So does this mean, since my New&Cheap VCR can play back the tape better (albeit with lower quality) that my Panasonic FS200 (AG1980) is in need of repair? (I've already wet tape cleaned her twice and she plays back other tapes fine, any ideas as to what can be done?)?

I am doing the tapes myself because the 'professional lab' that processes these tapes did a disappointing job, though I could take them to another lab if anyone knows a good one in Sydney, Australia? The lawyers are finished capturing the tape, so it's up to me to come up with any further refinements.

But, just presuming that I do the capture myself and they accept my work (I'm keeping careful notes of any transformations done, dropped frames, etc), what else can I do? I need the detail that comes from 19micron heads, but those aren't sold new anymore? Will TBC help me? Is there a PAL DVD Recorder I should know about? Why does the TBC in my Panasonic make the image far worse?

Canopus ADVC300 arrives today, wheee

[edDV]

I'd try a better lab with security experience.

If I gave it a shot myself I'd cap it with the ADVC at 1x speed, then extract the fields in the digital domain. That should get you a sequence of 720x288 stills. If the odd/even fields came from the same frame, they can be combined into a complete 720x576 frame. Then you would H-scale to 768x576 for square pixels and 4:3 Aspect ratio.

I'm sure your lawyer will then want a credible disinterested lab to repeat the process to defend against evidence tampering.

[vhelp]

I'm no expert in forensic or whatever its called, and although I do dable in restoration processes,
I am no expert in that niether. Anyway.. and I see you have lots of demo pics for observation and
comments, etc.

Now, I won't gaurantee your results will be in your favor 100%, but here are a few more suggestions
to consider.

But first..

Note, it has been proven that adding a TBC to a video that is potentially too far gone or intails some
form of macrovision, that these devices make the source even worse. Perhaps that between the two
functions, they cancel out each other's purpose. Who knows for sure! Anyway.. and in any case, this
has been written here and there on this forum board over the recent years.

#1 -- potentialness of a vfw capture card

A different (analog) capture card. One without DirectShow support (because they support the
Macrovision rules and in the process, (consiquentually) might mistake these poor frames/sequences as
such and result in those scenes or footage as distorted video much like what your pics are demonstrating)

So, if you want to rule out *other* potential outside interferences, then you have to have this fact
realized, and rethink your process different, much like a forensic would, I guess. What I'm saying is,
you need to change your capture equipment (that automatically serve MV) to a:

--> NON-Macrovision-ready setup

The only one's (based on my own past experience) -- (capture cards) -- that would work well in
this aspect are those that were designed with VFW driver support. I know that the Hauppauge
WinTV-GO cards are vfw, and so are the old ATI-TV Wonder VE cards. Both are composite (RCA)
connections, and ignore macrovision, hence no mistaking distorted video signal as mv.

#2 -- Another potentialness, by using a dv cam and recording to a dv tape, etc.

To (possibily) help straighten out some of the poor'er tapes (ie, non-macrovision distortsions)
you might consder a dv cam as the *new* transfer medium. I know that (from experience)
that the JVC GR-DVL820U does a really good job of straightening out *some* of
those distorted lines, and it might help in your case a little. If you use it, (if you can find one
or similar model range) the best way (I know how) to get a good reference source out of it is
to send the vcr signal to the dv cam and then (using a DV tape) record to the new tape. By
doing this, you incorporate a built-in circuit that applies TBC and other image improvement
schemes. Then, later, you can *capture* from that dv cam the dv tape you just recorded, to
your HDD via your vfw capture card.

Bare in mind that not all dv cam's operate the same, nor include the same functions/features
such as TBC's, image (NR) or other image processing what-have-you. Some units might only
have a line base, while others, a full base, etc. I know that the model I posted above has a
good TBC function, but I feel that it has two such operating aspects.

Example:

A) a preliminary tbc version during pass-through mode, while
B) a fully (tbc) functional processs, when source is recorded to dv tape and then captured

It is my opinion that {B} is the optimum path to choose. But I leave that up to you, should
you decide the above is for you, depending on your limited resources, of course.

#3 -- not really a suggestion for a solution, but.. post a sample of your source, if you can.

I realize that you are digitazing parts of the evidense out, and I would never ask of you to
post the untouched sources, but if it is possible to cut a few very short sections (where there
is no evidense of people, etc. in it) then that might help us to help show you how to restore
those parts that are slow motin or whateever you said that was different about the clips in
terms of fps or time-laps or what-not, more cleaner and/or accurately.

-vhelp 4532

[Cornucopia]

Another thing that might help (but could also RUIN your tape), would be to actually --for lack of a better term-- IRON out the wrinkles from your tape (obviously WITHOUT the heat being applied which would ruin the tape). If the tape has less "warp" or "folding" then it will align to the heads better.

I have done this successfully on 3 occasions, so I know it works. However, BEWARE and YMMV.

You also may want to do multiple passes from multiple cap cards and VCR combinations and then merge/blend the streams to keep the best of each pass.

Scott
(who has done alot of forensic work in the past)

[lordsmurf]

You'll want to deal with a high-end lab with forensic video abilities.

[StuR]

Hi, they all look like they need an aditional ext. full TBC/sync to help. Best to let a good Pro deal with it and before you agree on anything find out how many differt players and equiptment they have, don't waste your money on someone who may have a worse VCR than you've got. I know as far as UK law especially motoring is concerned any digital maipulation (post production zooming etc.) renders the evidence unusable. i.e. speed camera footage must be as is origonal (though many are now being converted to digital). That said you do see enhanced images used to help id criminals caught on CCTV, so get some legal advise on this before you was money, as the origonal video may need to be played in court. I suppose you could show the origonal, and then the corrected version to see the similarity but it lead to problems. Lawyers in the UK will give you 30mins free advice as do some Insurers and Breakdown Assistance (RAC/AA) so ask as many s you can.

[lordsmurf]

You'll need BOTH versions of the video, as the defense (or prosecution -- whichever you are) is going to want to examine and inspect everything. Be very careful who this video is given to, you would not want to lose it. There are certified labs that handle these kinds of things. Ask your local law enforcement offices to connect you with a lab to perform this work.

I've consulted law enforcement before on methods to enhance video -- usually smaller operations, the big ones know more than I do -- but that's all I can do. If nothing else, I don't want to get involved, I don't have time for court cases.

[DereX888]

"crucial evidence" and no one made any backups? Weird.

[lordsmurf]

"crucial evidence" and no one made any backups? Weird.

No, but sadly typical. I see this often.

People record over weddings, baby videos, court evidence.
Or ruin them by playing over and over and over, etc.

The tape tabs are ALWAYS left on.
The worst crap VCR possible is ALWAYS used to play, thus ruining the tape.

I have to tell people about 2-3 times per month, "no sorry, I cannot 'restore' footage you recorded over, it's gone forever'" or "no, sorry, if the VCR ate your tape, I cannot make it 'DVD quality' anymore" -- at least the last one I can refer to a lab that irons tapes (which may or may not help).

[koopak]

Phew, the case is over, all settled, in part thanks to you guys!

CHEERS!

Most of it was due to the recommendation of an AG-1980, gave the engineer all the extra details (before lost in the highlights) that he needed.

For denoising and contrast enhancing the video, forget everything you knew. I'm well familiar with NeatImage/NeatVideo, with the various denoising algorithms of plugins for VirtualDub and tried every one that was recommended to me.

http://www.thefoundry.co.uk/

Very expensive (though affordable because they rent licenses by the day), check out the Furnace plug-in set (especially their denoise and contrast sub-plugins within Furnace). Stunning. I read that they used it on King Kong, and short of the technology employed to restore the original star wars films, I haven't found anything close. I'm not kidding, the only program that seems to give more detail than you started with (I know, I know, impossible). But it seems to be able to analyze the noise pattern and subtract it, then join the dots with stunning accuracy, so an unwatchable video becomes VERY smooth, with no loss of detail. Amazing. As in, TMPGenc is normally pretty good at temporal denoising, this is in a different LEAGUE!

Ok, thats as much as I can say for them without just being advertisement, but those guys deserve it! If you NEED it ($$$!), try it, you'll thank me later!

Lastly, the ADVC-300, kind of a mixed bag really. For capturing 20 tapes, beautiful, reliable (as long as you keep 3D color noise reduction below strong, especially important or you get really noticeable color trails). However, the quality did not beat my $150 Avermedia Expresscard Hybrid, in anything (3D noise reduction saved me a lot of time for non critical videos though, definately a good safe choice for digitizing your favorite 500 VHS tapes). BUT, for the important tape... nope, more of the frames were lost. I thought after reading more posts it was the MV detection, but I updated the firmware and disabled that function -> same result. TBC on or off on Panny -> both bad in different ways. Eventually with TBC off, the ADVC300 gave me a rolling frame error (lost V-SYNC like an old TV), and using Photoshop I put the frames back into their right positions, but I still saw less than with the $100 VCR, and no more than the Pany with the Avermedia.

So, I hope some of my rant helps anyone in the same situation, and thanks very much for all your help, couldn't have done it without you guys!

*Buys beers for all*

[DereX888]

I'd love to see a vid comparisons Just 10sec of your worst would do
Or at least give us a framegrab (after cleaning), ie this one:

"crucial evidence" and no one made any backups? Weird.

No, but sadly typical. I see this often.

People record over weddings, baby videos, court evidence.
Or ruin them by playing over and over and over, etc.

The tape tabs are ALWAYS left on.
The worst crap VCR possible is ALWAYS used to play, thus ruining the tape.

I have to tell people about 2-3 times per month, "no sorry, I cannot 'restore' footage you recorded over, it's gone forever'" or "no, sorry, if the VCR ate your tape, I cannot make it 'DVD quality' anymore" -- at least the last one I can refer to a lab that irons tapes (which may or may not help).

Yeah, sad but true.
I've met few people like this, asking me to do some magic and restore their wedding VHS after it was recorded over and over again LOL
but
I always thought stuff like crime evidence etc *always* have backups... I guess I was wrong

[koopak]

Well the criminal investigations were over, and as far as the police were concerned, they HAD made a backup... with a cheap VCR... and permanently degraded the tape therefore (not that I can directly prove it, me evidence is the quality of their capture and the fact that only the relevant section of the tape was deteriorated).

Hmm, let me see if I can find a few stills of Furnace's pass, I wish I knew how to post photos here without having to hack in links from picassa!