HD source content format: MPEG-2 or H264

[vhelp]

First, let me start off by saying that in my Pinnacle PCTV Pro hd it reveals the following when inside
its configuration box:

Digital H264
Digital MPEG2 <--- is my default setup
Digital TV
NTSC M
NTSC MJ
NTSC433
PAL 60
PAL B
.
.

So, as much as it is a dumb question, I gotta ask..

Q: who has or uses or what governs which HD medium or disc or broadcast or region, the H264
video format content vs. the often talked about MPEG-2 video format content ??

I never see H264 from any of my HD programs from my tuner card.

-vhelp 4523

[vhelp]

Follow-up ...

I'm pretty pooped. Between watching a little (and capturing "Charlie and the Chocolate Factory"
on ABC in HD) all of my excitement is just being waisted on trivial balony. In any case, here's what
I got so far..

So I've been doing a little more research into this subject and come to realize what I thought
might be the case and as it (seems) to be the case, that H264 is being used mostly in the
PAL region while HD-MPEG-2 (1080i/720p mostly) is being use in the NTSC region.

The topic of HD and H264 formats are a complicated subject. Lots of reading about all sorts
of standards and committies and what-nots. Too much for my simple quesiton to even bother
any further. And from my viewpoint the basic is such, that when discussing HD and formats,
PAL=H264, and NTSC=MPEG-2, and that is that. Oh well.

Here is the last place I found (thanks to google) and viewed to get the jist of things..

--> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/H.264

and read near the bottom heading, under Applications.

The last thing I would wonder about is which way the consortium will go in terms of commercial
movies on DVD/BlueRay -- will it be in H264 or MEPG-2 format, I guess that is the question after
all. But I'm too tired an I got lots of other fun stuff to do with what HD content (besides watching it)
that I capture and play with.

-vhelp 4524

[[_chef_]]

mpeg2 were first for HD, nowadays its overcome by H.264 AVC (DVB-S2 etc).

DVD will always have mpeg2, up to 720x576 (PAL).
BD & HD-DVD had mpeg2 earlier, but now H.264 AVC is the standard, gladly.
Audio is another thing, there is DD5.1, DTS Pro and also mpeg2 and VC-1.

[vhelp]

Well, I know that there has been a number of talks about the HD vs. BlueRay wars going on but
I hadn't given it much reading because I feel its a waist of time to add my two cents worth into
this caos, and am waiting on the final verdict of who will be the new standard for the movie
content, h264 or mpeg-2. I guess it doesn't really matter which format is choosen as the standard,
but all the same, I would rather continue in the MPEG-2 format. But, I guess we will see [s:7b3b7c0f91]when[/s:7b3b7c0f91] (if)
it finally happens.

But, regarding ATSC OTA HDtv ...

Here, I'm still at a loss because right now, in ATSC OTA we have the HD being presented in the
MPEG-2 (480ip/1080i/720p) format. And I'm wondering if this will change to the H264 format if
the decision is to follow as the new standard. Its bad enough that some areas (specially with
low or week antenna reception) and couple that with the complexity (and vast ie, 1080i and
720p) of mpeg-2 and combine and process everything at the user's screen and to do this without
any lag or any such problem. So when you consider the known fact that H264 is an even
more complex and resource hungry, (req's more muscle than mepg) then you have to wonder if
they do change the ASTC OTA hd content (mpeg2) format to this H264 format, then what will
the new requirements be in terms of equipment and areal/antenna needs, etc. ??

Or then again, maybe they will leave that part alone

-vhelp 4525

[[_chef_]]

When you talk about OTA digital TV/radio - its called DVB-T here.
DVB-T is mpeg2, but DVB-T2 with H.264 mpeg4 is just around the corner.

[edDV]

First, let me start off by saying that in my Pinnacle PCTV Pro hd it reveals the following when inside
its configuration box:

Digital H264
Digital MPEG2 <--- is my default setup
Digital TV
NTSC M
NTSC MJ
NTSC433
PAL 60
PAL B
.
.

So, as much as it is a dumb question, I gotta ask..

Q: who has or uses or what governs which HD medium or disc or broadcast or region, the H264
video format content vs. the often talked about MPEG-2 video format content ??

I never see H264 from any of my HD programs from my tuner card.

-vhelp 4523

I'll try to sumarize the USA (NTSC region) situation.

ASTC is currently specified as MPeg2 on the primary channel (480i/480p/720p/1080i/1080p*)
http://www.hdtvprimer.com/ISSUES/what_is_ATSC.html

ATSC TV tuners are specified as MPeg2. A broadcaster can put anything he wants in the subchannels but if he expects a generic TV to pick it up, it needs to be ATSC-MPeg2.

Extreme example: A TV station could broadcast one primary MPeg2 SD channels at 3Mb/s with the remaining 16Mb/s going to h.264 or VC-1 or WMV or even divx. The data path is unregulated. It can be anything. Certain ATSC tuners can isolate the secondary data stream to a custom secondary tuner or computer to tune the data channels. An example of this is near you in upstate NY. It feeds special encrypted movie+local attraction channels and HBO to local motels and hotels. Others feed specialized programming to hospitals, doctors offices or public spaces.

There is evaluation going on to add h.264, VC-1 or other as supported formats for ATSC secondary channels. This would allow multiple HD channels to fit in 19Mb/s. New tuners would then be designated ATSC2 or such and everyone would need to upgrade their tuners again to get the new subchannels. The primary channel will remain MPeg2 for backwards compatibility.

Cable currently distributes multichannel MPeg2 with QAM modulation. They could change to VC-1 or h.264 for encrypted channels on a whim so long as they supply everybody with new cable boxes. The clearQAM locals need to stay MPeg2 for now per FCC. This could change any time.

Likewise satellite DBS can change to MPeg4 so long as they force customers to replace their set top boxes. DirectTV and Dish are currently switching HD service to MPeg4 and forcing everyone to change (i.e. buy or rent new equipment).

Next there is Fios and other IPTV. These can be whatever standard the service provider wants since they supply the set top box. There will be much more of this in the future.

This is all separate from BD/HD DVD which is privately specified as MPeg2, VC-1 or H.264. All players need to decode all three formats per the BD and HD specifications.


* A TV station could broadcast 1920x1080p/23.976 MPeg2 on the primary channel today. It is an approved ATSC standard and in theory all ATSC tuners are supposed to decode it. Likewise, it is possible for a station to broadcast two 1280x720p/23.976 channels in 19Mb/s with excellent quality. Nobody has yet chosen to do so.

[[_chef_]]

* A TV station could broadcast 1920x1080p/23.976 MPeg2 on the primary channel today. It is an approved ATSC standard and in theory all ATSC tuners are supposed to decode it. Likewise, it is possible for a station to broadcast two 1280x720p/23.976 channels in 19Mb/s with excellent quality. Nobody has yet chosen to do so.

Great sumup, edDV.

In eurpe some few channels do broadcast in 1080i, none does in 1080p because it really makes no sense.
It would be a waste of bandwith at least.

[vhelp]

Thanks guys.

Well, I just hope that the quality level is as good as everybody is claiming it will be for this
H264 format. I mean. I've never seen an actual HDTV source intailing an .h264 video. And
I should wouldn't mind seen an (short) example of one or two, just to get an idea of what
the quality is like and also, the preporation work necessary to Exact/Edit/etc. the source,
much like we do with the HD content here in the US, where it is MPEG-2.

-vhelp 4535

[jagabo]

ATSC TV tuners are specified as MPeg2. A broadcaster can put anything he wants in the subchannels but if he expects a generic TV to pick it up, it needs to be ATSC-MPeg2.

Extreme example: A TV station could broadcast one primary MPeg2 SD channels at 3Mb/s with the remaining 16Mb/s going to h.264 or VC-1 or WMV or even divx. The data path is unregulated. It can be anything. Certain ATSC tuners can isolate the secondary data stream to a custom secondary tuner or computer to tune the data channels. An example of this is near you in upstate NY. It feeds special encrypted movie+local attraction channels and HBO to local motels and hotels.

That pisses me off -- our public airwaves given away for private profit.

I just hope that the quality level is as good as everybody is claiming it will be for thisH264 format.

It won't. They will simply use the better compression to achieve a lower bitrate with the same barely watchable quality -- so they can use the rest of the bandwidth for private profit.

[vhelp]

Sheesh. I was hoping that in the interim, the quality would be improved. What a waist, (sort of)
when you think about how they been treating MPEG with all the nonsense you mentioned (and
then some) and now, they are going to do the same with H264 -- it never ends

When I look at my HD sources (from my PCTV Pro hd stick) the picture looks great, but in all
honesty, it is the same nonsense noted. When you enlarge the video picture, you see the
unfortunate degraded quality in the mpeg. In the back of my mind, I felt that this would be
the same for the new h264, too. Looks like I am correct, that it will follow the same. And the
only difference with it (and hd mpeg) is that the picture will be larger, and more detail, but
as noted above, will suffer the nonsense, none-the-less.

I was looking at my captured LOST in its supposivly HD glory and realized how much *MPEG*
artifacts are everywhere!! And, the only way to not notice it so much is to reduce it
(the video deminsions) in size, usually in half or lessor.

Course, we all (most of us seasoned veterins) realize that as with HD (and large screen tv's)
there is the built-in machanics that *filter* the video so that the nonsense is not so much
noticed

-vhelp 4537

[edDV]

ATSC TV tuners are specified as MPeg2. A broadcaster can put anything he wants in the subchannels but if he expects a generic TV to pick it up, it needs to be ATSC-MPeg2.

Extreme example: A TV station could broadcast one primary MPeg2 SD channels at 3Mb/s with the remaining 16Mb/s going to h.264 or VC-1 or WMV or even divx. The data path is unregulated. It can be anything. Certain ATSC tuners can isolate the secondary data stream to a custom secondary tuner or computer to tune the data channels. An example of this is near you in upstate NY. It feeds special encrypted movie+local attraction channels and HBO to local motels and hotels.

That pisses me off -- our public airwaves given away for private profit.

That is debatable as it was during the process leading up to the Telecommunications Act of 1996. Both political parties supported the Act as it is written. It passed with little opposition.

Those for it wanted spectrum freed up for alternative wireless services. They also wanted the government to profit from leases of the new blocks of bandwidth like the 700MHz band and much of urban lower/upper VHF.
http://gigaom.com/2007/03/14/700mhz-explained/

The argument from the NAB (National Association of Broadcasters) goes something like this. They were fat and happy broadcasting NTSC on the old frequencies following all the FCC rules and paying taxes when the government decided to change all the rules.

1. They were required to abandon the prime VHF channels (2-13) that always commanded a premium when a station was bought or sold. They would all be relocated to UHF (some rural VHF exceptions) where this premium would be lost.

2. New transmission equipment would need to be purchased twice. The Act required dual NTSC (old channel) and ATSC (temporary new channel) broadcasting from 2003 to 2008. The first generation of ATSC transmitters were both expensive and not ready for prime time as they say. The engineering, construction and dual power bill would be born by the broadcaster with no compensation or special tax subsidy.

3. The permanent channel assignments are on different channels than either the old analog channel or the temporary ATSC channel and power requirements are higher. This meant all new transmitters and transmission antennas were required and all on the same date.

In exchange the act allowed a more permanent frequency licence and freedom to use bandwidth beyond the primary channel for additional DTV subchannels or for entrepreneurial purposes.

The new ATSC digital broadcasting system (after Feb 2009) frees nearly half the bandwidth formerly used for TV broadcasting. The beneficiaries are public safety radio services and new wireless services.

[edDV]

Sheesh. I was hoping that in the interim, the quality would be improved. What a waist, (sort of)
when you think about how they been treating MPEG with all the nonsense you mentioned (and
then some) and now, they are going to do the same with H264 -- it never ends
...
-vhelp 4537

Each station has 19Mb/s available and at full bandwidth quality can be very good. 720p stations around here are using 12-15Mb/s for the primary with additional subchannels (ABC News/Weather, Fox TheTube, PBS 2nd service+ Vme Spanish). Likewise the 1080i stations are mostly adding subchannels. The only exception is a CBS O&O which uses the full 19Mb/s for the primary channel.

It is the option of the local broadcaster to set bit rate. I for one was sad to see PBS drop the main channel down from 17Mb/s 1080i to 12Mb/s 720p when they added Vme.

We are all free to complain to the TV station management.


PS: VC-1 or H.264 are capable of equal quality at 40-50% bit rate compared to MPeg2. Some stations have been using lower bit rate wmv as aux data for specialized services.