VCD/SVCD Authoring : Development Specifications (HOW?)

[Betamax]

Hi there,
Despite all the different apps I tried for authoring (S)VCD, I'm not happy with the result.
For my professional, I'm a programmer (C++), so I thought; why wouldn't I develop something myself?

For start, all I want is to create some program that will do almost the same like VCDImager, but with all options free to modify (so with 1 menu or multiple menu or not, with start-sequence or start-movie, for now, that's it).

Although I'm strong in writing 'user-friendly' interfaces for applications, I know nothing about the technical characteristics of SVCD/VCD.
Does anyone have a tip for me, which sites should I visit to get those kind of information?

All help is welcome.
Tx.

[disturbed1]

http://www.licensing.philips.com/cdsystems/cdsystems.html
http://www.licensing.philips.com/cdsystems/cdsupervcd.html
http://www.licensing.philips.com/ordering/orderproced.html
http://www.iec.ch/cgi-bin/procgi.pl/www/iecwww.p?wwwlang=E&wwwprog=cat-det.p&wartnum=26521
http://www.cdpage.com/Compact_Disc_Books/whitebook.html
http://www.disctronics.co.uk/cdref/cdbooks/whitebook.htm
http://www.disctronics.co.uk/cdref/cd-rom/videocd.htm
http://www.ccs.neu.edu/home/bchafy/cdb/info/info.html
and you can always try
http://www.google.com/search?q=vcd
http://www.google.com/search?q=%22white+book%22
http://www.google.com/search?q=svcd
http://www.google.com/search?num=100&hl=en&lr=lang_en&safe=off&q=%22CD-ROM+XA%22

That should get you started



<font size=-1>[ This Message was edited by: disturbed1 on 2001-07-22 11:15:31 ]</font>

[hvr]

<TABLE BORDER=0 ALIGN=CENTER WIDTH=85%><TR><TD><font size=-1>Quote:</font><HR size=1 color=black></TD></TR><TR><TD><FONT SIZE=-1><BLOCKQUOTE>
On 2001-07-22 10:48:37, Betamax wrote:
Hi there,
Despite all the different apps I tried for authoring (S)VCD, I'm not happy with the result.
For my professional, I'm a programmer (C++), so I thought; why wouldn't I develop something myself?

For start, all I want is to create some program that will do almost the same like VCDImager, but with all options free to modify (so with 1 menu or multiple menu or not, with start-sequence or start-movie, for now, that's it).

Although I'm strong in writing 'user-friendly' interfaces for applications, I know nothing about the technical characteristics of SVCD/VCD.
Does anyone have a tip for me, which sites should I visit to get those kind of information?

All help is welcome.
Tx.
</BLOCKQUOTE></FONT></TD></TR><TR><TD><HR size=1 color=black></TD></TR></TABLE>

...just wondering... what's so restrictive about vcdimager?
you can already modify almost any settable parameter by XML...

don't underestimate the effort to reimplement something like vcdimager...

[Leon]

I've just learn about VCDimager and the available GUIs. I think VCDimager and XML is the good solution.

BUT, I haven't found a GUI to create Playlists (see Mickael XML docu at geocities http://www.geocities.com/medinotes/vcd/general_xml_structure.html )

THEREFORE, I would suggest you write a VCDimage "Advanced" GUI which can do playlist with chapters. This is what we all expect I think.

AND if I've understood correctly the GNU license, if you keep you GUI code separate from VCDimager you can distribute for free or for a fee !

IF you want to code this avdanced GUI, I can write the specs and "design" the screens.

JUST let me know (pls copy also directly to my e-mail).

Leon
http://perso.wanadoo.fr/lelab/index_en.htm

PS/ if we focus on the playlist we can create a terrific authoring tool

[Betamax]

On 2001-07-23 04:08:33, hvr wrote:
<TABLE BORDER=0 ALIGN=CENTER WIDTH=85%><TR><TD><font size=-1>Quote:</font><HR size=1 color=black></TD></TR><TR><TD><FONT SIZE=-1><BLOCKQUOTE>
...just wondering... what's so restrictive about vcdimager?
you can already modify almost any settable parameter by XML...

don't underestimate the effort to reimplement something like vcdimager...
</BLOCKQUOTE></FONT></TD></TR><TR><TD><HR size=1 color=black></TD></TR></TABLE>
I'm not saying anything is wrong with your app. Actualy I didn't try it out yet. But I'm such kind of person that only like a program if the abstract code is as good as it's interface to the user.

The change I would like, is the possibility to add extra folders with contents to the first, data track. For instance, currently I use WinOnCD38pe with its integrated VideoPack for all my VCD's (start-sequence : played only at load of the cd; 1 or more menu's; video-tracks) and I've got the possibility to create a 'PICTURES' directory in where I store all the still images (JPeG's) I've used to create the menu. So in the future, I allways have the original files at the corresponding CD. I already miss this feature in I-Author (so I'm forced to store it onto a seperate disk).

Maybe you could make it into your app so I won't have to develop anything, or I could help you as far as you want too. Because I like (as I said) good 'user-friendly' interfaces, I could help you with those, using your guidelines -- but only if your interested!

[vitualis]

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On 2001-07-23 06:39:41, Betamax wrote:
The change I would like, is the possibility to add extra folders with contents to the first, data track. For instance, currently I use WinOnCD38pe with its integrated VideoPack for all my VCD's (start-sequence : played only at load of the cd; 1 or more menu's; video-tracks) and I've got the possibility to create a 'PICTURES' directory in where I store all the still images (JPeG's) I've used to create the menu. So in the future, I allways have the original files at the corresponding CD. I already miss this feature in I-Author (so I'm forced to store it onto a seperate disk).
</BLOCKQUOTE></FONT></TD></TR><TR><TD><HR size=1 color=black></TD></TR></TABLE>

Um... you should REALLY have a look at VCDImager sometime. You can add additional files to the ISO9660 f/s to your heart's content with VCDImager 0.7.x.

As hvr stated, almost ALL possible things achievable with VCDs can be done with VCDImager 0.7.x and the XML system. That is, it is MORE configurable than WinOnCD3.8PE or VideoPack4.

What it is missing is a GUI and as Leon suggested, this is probably what you could work on.

Regards.

[Betamax]

On 2001-07-23 06:53:20, vitualis wrote:
<TABLE BORDER=0 ALIGN=CENTER WIDTH=85%><TR><TD><font size=-1>Quote:</font><HR size=1 color=black></TD></TR><TR><TD><FONT SIZE=-1><BLOCKQUOTE>
Um... you should REALLY have a look at VCDImager sometime. You can add additional files to the ISO9660 f/s to your heart's content with VCDImager 0.7.x.

What it is missing is a GUI and as Leon suggested, this is probably what you could work on.
</BLOCKQUOTE></FONT></TD></TR><TR><TD><HR size=1 color=black></TD></TR></TABLE>
I'll get the VCDImager as soon as I found it (needs to have the Windows version). Then I'll experiment with it.

As soon as I know XML good enough, I'll start developping a gui. I will keep you informed (via this forum), but keep in mind that it can take a while (not so much time : still capturing and encoding : steals a lot of time of my system) .

[hvr]

hope you found vcdimager already;

btw1, I have tried to keep vcdimager's code more or less well structured; but well it's still in development, and only now it is reaching slowly feature completness, and one last big rewrite is scheduled in order to get it completley right once and for all...

btw2, just why IMHO it is better, to have one common backend:
if you look around, all those tools, nero, woc, Iauthor (including vcdimager) and so on have all their one VCD authoring code... i.e. duplicated code; which means, each package has it's own bugs, but you have neither the possibility to fix them in source code nor do you see how those implementations actually work...

if those tools all were based on the same backend, say a common library, thus sharing the same routines, all parties could join forces to maintian those library, instead of everyone fighting against each other, and being less effective...
but well, since those parties (except for vcdimager are mainly concerned with making money as long as there is still demand for the product they make (I'm sure the demand for (S)VCD authoring will decrease quite soon in the next years, as DVD authoring will become more affordable), by possibly killing their adversaries..

vcdimager has no commercial interest, it's being written just for the sake of having a kind of immortal (having the source available guarantees it won't get lost, just because the author doesn't care anymore and takes it with down him) toolset for authoring all kind of (S)VCDs...

when it may make sense for commercial parties, to reinvent the wheel, it surely does not for spare time projects...

well.. whatever, please don't hesitate to contact me by email if you have any questions about vcdimager...

[Betamax]

I took a look at "VCDImager's GUI Easy" and all I need is almost in there, except the menu stuff.
The only thing, yet to be implemented should be the possibility to create menu's either using still images or self created MPeG's, take advatage of "Playlists", and so on. I'd take a look at the helppage of VCDImager's 0.7.x version, there I saw all this is possible.
If the author of VCDI Gui Easy will not implement all those, I'll try to create my own GUI with the possibility to extract the whole bunch to just XML (so the user can modify somethings) of directly send to a Cue/bin using VCDI.

Anyhow, I still must experiment with it.
I also must experiment a lot with VCDI using the commandline and self-created XML files. Just finding out all possibility's.

HVR : Like you're talking about VCDImager, I almost start to think you're the author of this app. If so, could you tell me if there are DLL versions available of your application, so I could call the procedures/functions directly from within a future app I could write?

[Betamax]

Appendum :

On 2001-07-23 08:10:44, hvr wrote:
<TABLE BORDER=0 ALIGN=CENTER WIDTH=85%><TR><TD><font size=-1>Quote:</font><HR size=1 color=black></TD></TR><TR><TD><FONT SIZE=-1><BLOCKQUOTE>
vcdimager has no commercial interest, it's being written just for the sake of having a kind of immortal (having the source available guarantees it won't get lost, just because the author doesn't care anymore and takes it with down him) toolset for authoring all kind of (S)VCDs...
you have any questions about vcdimager...
</BLOCKQUOTE></FONT></TD></TR><TR><TD><HR size=1 color=black></TD></TR></TABLE>
I've got no commercial interest either! All I want to do is helping people who like to do the same thing as I.
I already know, a lot of people are looking for a good GUI for both VCD and SVCD (all versions: 1.0, 1.1 and 2.0 - for both types) to create CD's that results nearly a DVD. This means : having 1 or more intro's, having 1 or more menus and if possible; chapters in the tracks (but they may not be seen as track-seperators so no gaps occures).
If I can find such a program, or (if necessary) I can develop something like that (if possible with help of others), I will do so. But keep your money in your own pocket !

Now you know how my opinion is...

[rayjr13]

Personally my interest lies in waiting for and encouraging those to make these apps so I can use them to my own benefit and I'm sure people wouldn't mind paying for something that was perfect like....um nothin yet. That's why we like warez because we know we're never gonna get what we pay for even with expensive I-author. The closest thing we have to perfection is VCDimager so let help where we can and, like me, work harder to learn it until it can be made easier to use. And if you, unlike me, can help expedite that process with your talent do so, so everyone can benefit. otherwise just do what u can to help people in the forum and especially don't biiiooottch about prog that are free and better then the ones we have to steal and bootleg, I mean buy. Props to the prog creators, developer, and contributors...mad skillz

[Betamax]

On 2001-07-23 09:41:06, rayjr13 wrote:
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... especially don't biiiooottch about prog ...
</BLOCKQUOTE></FONT></TD></TR><TR><TD><HR size=1 color=black></TD></TR></TABLE>
What do you mean here? What is "biiiooottch"??

Otherwise, you're completely wright concerning those apps we must 'steal'...

Oh Yeh, almost forgotten. I will write a GUI, with more possibilities than the one I found, for VCDImager. It's a good app (yes, it's true) but not everyone (especially me) like commandline apps, although those are sometimes very good. And not everyone has the skills to write in plain XML (even the more simplified HTML is a bit complicated if you use notepad to write your sites -- as I do! ).

<font size=-1>[ This Message was edited by: Betamax on 2001-07-23 11:24:38 ]</font>

[RFontenot]

If you are looking for an VCD authoring tool with an easy to use GUI frontend, then you should take a look at the Philips Video CD 2.0 Toolkit. You can use VCD2TK to create very complex multilevel menu VCD's with MPEG video, audio, CD audio, etc. It will automatically convert JPEGS, TIFF, Targa, and other still images to MPEG stills. Best of all, the program is available for no charge.

VCD2TK was a professional VCD authoring tool developed and sold by Philips. I'm somewhat skeptical you would could create anything that would significantly do more than what VCD2TK can already do.

However, if you are looking to write a GUI for VCD authoring, I would suggest creating a GUI frontend for VCDImager. Unlike VCD2TK, VCDImager supports SVCD and creates Yellow Book image files which most of the popular burner programs suppport. Plus, it already has a following of users.

In short, I think your time will be better spent building upon an existing body of work rather than trying to recreate an existing wheel.

Just my $.02

RF



<font size=-1>[ This Message was edited by: RFontenot on 2001-07-23 21:17:46 ]</font>

[Leon]

Yes VCD2TK does what we want but:

- just for VCD, not for SVCD
- it's is discontinued as by 1996
- it is not sell any longer
- it's under Philips copyright so grabbing from the web and using it, is unlegal
- the GUI of the VCD2KT could be much better
- XML techno could help us to make also for DVD authoring

Leon

other $0.02 more

[RFontenot]

So the VCD2TK has been discontinued and isn't being sold. So what? The entire VCD format has been discontinued and replaced by DVD. So should Michael and Baldrick rm -r * the whole VCDHelp site? If a tool is still works and is useful, it doesn't matter when it was last sold.

Yes, Philips still owns the VCD2TK copywright, but it is not "unlegal" or even illegal to download it and use it. Philips released the software through The International CD-i Association, of which Philips is a member. I imagine they did so because CD-i, and it's cousin, VCD, are no longer viable commercial technologies. However, there are still a lot of people who have an interest in using these technologies. If there wasn't, VCDHelp wouldn't exist, and the ICDIA would have ceased to exist long ago.

Think of it as free advertising for Philips.

American corporations, could take lessons from Philips in allowing the public to use obsolete technology for minimal or no charge, thus gaining free advertising and goodwill. Instead, companies like Microsoft are dragging charities into court for not paying obscene licensing fees for copies of Window 3.1 given to poor children.

VCD2TK does have it's limits, and unless Philips releases the source to VCD2TK, it will never support SVCD or DVD. So if someone can write a decent GUI for VCDImager that does half of what VCD2TK does, I think that would be great for everyone who has an interest in the VCD format. But until then, if you want to do advanced VCD authoring, and don't want to learn how to code XML, VCD2TK is a very good alternative.

RF

[disturbed1]

RFontenot, well put.
I think most people have a problem with VCD TK because it's an advanced professional app. Even though it may be "OLD" there isn't another app available today that offers all the features that the TK can do. Video Pack is nice, but just doesn't come close.

VCD Imager is the only other solution. The only thing it's lacking is a GUI to unlock it. With a qualified and well versed GUI programmer, VCDImager could take full advantage of the extensive features for the VCD 2.0 format. Not to mention the added benefit of SVCD support.

This would require not only one who has experience in programming, but also one who is very familiar with the specs and capabilities/limitations of the formats.
There are already 2 very good GUI's available. Belboz is adding extra XML capabilities to his version now. He's currently taking suggestions for added features, and how people would like to have them implemented.

[Leon]

To disturbed1,

I didn't know that Philips is part of ICDIA, so I went across Jorg Kennis site but I didn't find a member list! I think you could be right and it could be a non-direct support from Philips but I would really like to read about Philips membership, as in the USA people are much more strict regarding copyright than people are in Europe.

Btw, the need of a more advanced GUI for VCDImager would be useful, at least for SVCD which are not part of VCD2TK features.

Do you know how/where to reach "Belboz"? Who is (s)he?

Leon

[disturbed1]

Leon,
This is from icdia.org (Jorg Kennis)
<TABLE BORDER=0 ALIGN=CENTER WIDTH=85%><TR><TD><font size=-1>Quote:</font><HR size=1 color=black></TD></TR><TR><TD><FONT SIZE=-1><BLOCKQUOTE>
1.2 Who invented CD-i?
CD-i was jointly developed by Philips Electronics NV and Sony Corporation in the mid 80s. Together, both companies defined CD-i's basic specifications in what is know as the Green Book. They decided to use the well-tested OS-9 operating system from Microware Systems Corporation, which was designed for embedded, real-time applications. Microware was also heavily involved in the CD-i design process. Eventually, Philips took the biggest part in the development process, being responsible for at least 90% of CD-i's development?
</BLOCKQUOTE></FONT></TD></TR><TR><TD><HR size=1 color=black></TD></TR></TABLE>
Maybe it slipped it your mind, happens to me all the time

Here the forum link to that topic about Belboz's GUI
http://www.vcdhelp.com/phpBB/viewtopic.php?topic=51309&forum=1&14



<font size=-1>[ This Message was edited by: disturbed1 on 2001-07-24 08:54:30 ]</font>

[Leon]

disturbed1,

Philips is not part of ICDIA, they quit when they've created IDMA (Interactive Digital Media Association) and DVDA (DVD Association).

This is from a reply Jorg just sent to me.

Btw, Philips could donate its VCD2TK licensing rights and make things clear to everyone.

I gonna get in touch with "belboz" thanks for the link,

Leon

[Betamax]

And yes, I came a bit further.
It's not that quiet simple to develop from zero, re-inventing the wheel for much things which makes a GUI so interesting (like drag-drop), while a lot of developpers won't share their programming unless you'll pay for it (and while the app must be Public-Domain, I cannot do this).
As I think now, it can take some times (maybe a few months) until I've got something that will be a bit better than the existing gui's for vcd-imager, while I'm adding support for as much of posibility's available in vcdImager (menu's, chapters, vcd/svcd, and much more).
But I'll keep you informed...

See Yah,