sony hdr-sr12 new HDD camcorder is 1080p or 1080i?

[deejay.2001]

hi
i was wondering if this new sony hdr-sr12 is 1920x1080p camcorder or 1080i ?

is there any camcorder real HD full progressive 1920x1080p on market?

thanks

[aedipuss]

wired's review indicates it's 1920x1080p. but it sounds like more of a consumer toy than serious cam. it records in h264 at about the same bitrate as miniDV. not enough bandwidth to for real HD or at least it seems that way to me. i don't even want to try editing what it produces.

[edDV]

All AVCHD so far has been interlace. I see nothing in the Camcorderinfo review to indicate progressive recording or progressive over HDMI. Most likely it is 1080i.

Easy way to tell is plug it into your HDTV and see what it sees.

1920x1080 adds 33% more pixels but max bitrate was only increased from 15Mb/s to 16Mb/s. That should make AVCHD's existing quality issues worse.

The entire rest of the industry has decided bitrate is more important to picture quality than horizontal resolution. Pro cams shoot 1440x1080i MPEG-2/DVC at 25-144Mb/s and AVC-Intra at 50Mb/s. Compare that to AVCHD 1920x1080i at 16Mb/s.

IMO 1920x1080 AVCHD is purely a consumer hype play. Numbers over performance. Camcorders are about shooting motion, not stationary pictures.

http://www.camcorderinfo.com/content/Sony-HDR-SR12-First-Impressions-Camcorder-Review-...178/Format.htm
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/AVCHD

[edDV]

is there any camcorder real HD full progressive 1920x1080p on market?

thanks

You don't get to 1920x1080p until HDCAM-SR format (440Mb/s) although AVC-Intra will support 1920x1080p @100Mb/s in the future.

The Viper Venum (Thomson)


The Sony F-23


This is a great overview of the high end.
http://cinetaur.googlepages.com/hd24pdigitalcinematographylinks

DVCProHD (59.94 fps) uses 960x720p 4:2:2 @100Mb/s (no GOP)
DVCProHD (50.00 fps) uses 1280x720p 4:2:2 @100Mb/s (no GOP)
XDCAM-EX (30 fps max) will do 1440x1080p @35Mb/s but has 4:2:0 color space and uses long GOP MPeg2.

[aedipuss]

edDV the wired video reviewer claims the sr12 does 1080p.
http://blog.wired.com/gadgets/2008/01/a-wired-video-e.html

1080p avchd @ 16Mbps what a treat.

[racer-x]

Good luck editing with that mess............

If you don't plan to edit, it should look impressive as long as you keep movement to a minimum................

[edDV]

edDV the wired video reviewer claims the sr12 does 1080p.
http://blog.wired.com/gadgets/2008/01/a-wired-video-e.html

1080p avchd @ 16Mbps what a treat.

Since when is Wired a trusted source on video?

Point is even if the sensor is 1920x1080p of some sort (like the Canon line), you are better off processing and compressing to 1440x1080i (25% less pixels) for low bit rates to reduce compression errors. Bit rate is more important than resolution for picture quality. For editing/processing, less compression is better than more compression.

[zoobie]

probably for the 95% that don't edit...or the 95% that don't use tripods...or somesuch phoney numbers someone came up with
either way, this sounds like a disaster

[edDV]

http://www.sonystyle.com/webapp/wcs/stores/servlet/ProductDisplay?catalogId=10551&stor...1496&langId=-1

There is good consumer camera tech here but no mention of progressive output in any of the Sony documentation. The issue is high compression convenience vs recode quality. I prefer the motion smoothness of 59.94 fields per second to 30p for a hand held camcorders. Image stabilization is getting better but fast motion will be somewhat jerky at 30p. That is why they use 1080i for HDV and AVCHD. 1080p/24 is intended for professionally shot movies. Buyer beware.

Motion smoothness requires 59.94p like in the FOX Superbowl coverage yesterday. IMO 1280x720p/59.94 is perfect for sports. There was no 1080p anywhere in the superbowl coverage. All production was uncompressed 1280x720p (1.4Gb/s) or 960x720p DVCProHD at 100 Mb/s. By the time it got to your TV the finished product had been reduced to 12-15Mb/s.

[deejay.2001]

thanks guys...so there is no 1080p cunsomer camcorder yet as i can see....
i have found another 2 camcorders:

so what about second generation blue ray camcorder from hitachi
DZ-BD9H and the DZ-HD90 (according to rview this should also record at 16mbs)
is they better than sony hdr-sr12 and is it 1080p or also 1080i?


what about JVC GZ-HD7? according to review it can record UP to 26.6mbs at 1920x1080 so is it real 1080p or not also as the same like sony and hitachi....but jvc has highest bitrate up to 26.6mb

thanks again

[edDV]

thanks guys...so there is no 1080p cunsomer camcorder yet as i can see....
i have found another 2 camcorders:

so what about second generation blue ray camcorder from hitachi
DZ-BD9H and the DZ-HD90 (according to rview this should also record at 16mbs)
is they better than sony hdr-sr12 and is it 1080p or also 1080i?


what about JVC GZ-HD7? according to review it can record UP to 26.6mbs at 1920x1080 so is it real 1080p or not also as the same like sony and hitachi....but jvc has highest bitrate up to 26.6mb

thanks again

What are you going to use this camcorder for? Why is 1080p needed? Are you going straight to BluRay?

The DZ-BD9H is an AVCHD camcorder that records to internal HDD or directly to a BluRay disc. The DZ-HD90 is similar with HDD but without BluRay + outputs to eSATA. Like the Sony, they record to AVCHD 1920x1080 at 16Mb/s. Nothing is said on their site about 1080i vs. 1080p*, just a lot of pretty hype. In the past, Hitachi AVCHD camcorders have received relatively poor reviews.
http://av.hitachi.com/camcorder/passion/index.html

The JVC GZ-HD7 has been around for about a year and is heavily reviewed. It records to a proprietary VBR MPeg2 transport stream format to HDD at up to 1920x1080i at 30Mb/s. The reviews on this camera have been disappointing with the camera section failing to match the cheaper HDV models from Canon and Sony.
http://www.camcorderinfo.com/content/JVC-GZ-HD7-Camcorder-Review/Format.htm

As said several times now, resolution alone does not determine picture quality.

Your name is DeeJay. In audio terms, this is like saying the best audio recording format is the one that reaches 22KHz vs 20KHz even though it might also lack flat responce and be high in distortion (like AVCHD compression artifacts).

Consumers fall for buzz words and can't deal with spec trade off.


* If it is 1080p, that means it will only record at 25 fps which will be jerky for hand held camcorder use especially when watched on a large screen. I don't think many users are going to use a tripod.

[deejay.2001]

thanks edDV


so because i am about to buy some camcorder soon what would you recommend from those 3 camcorders we have been talking about please:

upcoming sony, hitachi or that jvc? or should i go with new cannon hf10,hf100?

thanks

[MJA]

they all own the Canon Canon HV20 .or check the up coming HV30

http://www.amazon.com/Canon-HV30-Definition-Camcorder-Stabilized/dp/B00114PN1U/ref=pd_...2169921&sr=1-1

[edDV]

Depends on what you want to do with it. HDV is lowest compression and easiest to edit but records on tape.

Read the reviews in www.Camcorderinfo.com. I'd choose one of their best rated models that matches your needs.
http://www.camcorderinfo.com/ratings.php

Street prices are nearly half last year.

For my needs, the best choice is the Canon-XH-A1. Your needs may differ.
http://www.camcorderinfo.com/content/Canon-XH-A1-Camcorder-Review.htm

[JohnnyMalaria]

It *is* 1080p. Go to the Sony website and look up the camcorder. It is refered to as "Full HD" - that implies 1080p.

e.g. "Record stunning, incredibly detailed video footage in the clarity of 1920 x 1080 Full HD resolution."

Oddly, this camcorder can record SD in MPEG2. Also, it doesn't have a FireWire port - just USB2.0.

[edDV]

It *is* 1080p. Go to the Sony website and look up the camcorder. It is refered to as "Full HD" - that implies 1080p.

e.g. "Record stunning, incredibly detailed video footage in the clarity of 1920 x 1080 Full HD resolution."

Oddly, this camcorder can record SD in MPEG2. Also, it doesn't have a FireWire port - just USB2.0.

I'm not sure "Full HD" is defined as progressive since it is a marketing term. It probably means 1920x1080 period. In monitor usage, plasma and LCD are always progressive so the issue is moot. Consumer camcorders have severe trade off going to 1920x1080 (compression artifacts) and even more tradeoff going to progressive 1920x1080 (24p/30p choppy motion). 60p is out of the question.

Hollywood long ago mastered slow frame rates with heavy iron camera mounts, SteadyCam and directorial control of actor motion and pan/tilt/zoom. That is why film schools exist. Consumer handheld video needs higher field sample rate.

[JohnnyMalaria]

It is confused for sure. Most places I've been able to find indicated it is 1080p. Wikipedia for example has a proxy page called "Full HD" that redirects to "1080p".

Having said that and undertaking another search, there is conflicting information.

The only way to know for sure is to grab the camcorder, wiggle it around and see if there are signs of interlacing

[edDV]

It is confused for sure. Most places I've been able to find indicated it is 1080p. Wikipedia for example has a proxy page called "Full HD" that redirects to "1080p".

Having said that and undertaking another search, there is conflicting information.

The only way to know for sure is to grab the camcorder, wiggle it around and see if there are signs of interlacing

The Sony and Hitachi sites never mention progressive. But again, if it is progressive, it is 25p which will make a very jerky hand held camcorder. 1080i can be easily deinterlaced into 50p or interpopated to 100p at the HDTV.

[JohnnyMalaria]

The Sony and Hitachi sites never mention progressive. But again, if it is progressive, it is 25p which will make a very jerky hand held camcorder. 1080i can be easily deinterlaced into 50p or interpopated to 100p at the HDTV.

Agreed. That's why interlacing was invented - to remove flicker while maintaining the same transmission bandwidth. Of course, I don't need to tell you that

[deejay.2001]

thanks

i just received email from technical sony group
hdr-sr12 is 1920x1080i and recording at 60i
sony explained they will not release 1080p consumer camcorder because of problem with heavy compression...

it looks like even UPcoming blue ray camcorders for home users will never soon enough release 1080P because you would need like 1000gb for it...to have space for video
seems to me that those hitachi new blue ray camcorders use the same 1080i recording as sony

[webdzynes]

It *is* 1080p. Go to the Sony website and look up the camcorder. It is refered to as "Full HD" - that implies 1080p.

e.g. "Record stunning, incredibly detailed video footage in the clarity of 1920 x 1080 Full HD resolution."

Oddly, this camcorder can record SD in MPEG2. Also, it doesn't have a FireWire port - just USB2.0.

Hi edDV- Do you think this might be a good solution to having easy editing AND Long term recording as then it could be paired up with a really good miniDV?

http://mcetech.com/quickstreamdv-hdv/index.html

Seems like the best of both worlds-

[edDV]

thanks

i just received email from technical sony group
hdr-sr12 is 1920x1080i and recording at 60i
sony explained they will not release 1080p consumer camcorder because of problem with heavy compression...

it looks like even UPcoming blue ray camcorders for home users will never soon enough release 1080P because you would need like 1000gb for it...to have space for video
seems to me that those hitachi new blue ray camcorders use the same 1080i recording as sony

Although seemingly unpopular, 1080i/50 fields per second is superior to 1080p/25 frames per second for a consumer camcorder. It just is. Convince yourself.

People just won't obey the shooting discipline of 24-25p.

Those gyro stabilized Stedicams are heavy and awkward.

[edDV]

It *is* 1080p. Go to the Sony website and look up the camcorder. It is refered to as "Full HD" - that implies 1080p.

e.g. "Record stunning, incredibly detailed video footage in the clarity of 1920 x 1080 Full HD resolution."

Oddly, this camcorder can record SD in MPEG2. Also, it doesn't have a FireWire port - just USB2.0.

Hi edDV- Do you think this might be a good solution to having easy editing AND Long term recording as then it could be paired up with a really good miniDV?

http://mcetech.com/quickstreamdv-hdv/index.html

Seems like the best of both worlds-

Those are similar to the more famous Focus Firestore discs
http://www.focusinfo.com/solutions/video_production.asp

[webdzynes]

I'm just getting familiar with all this but be it the Quickstream or the Firestore, wont they work with a MiniDV (like the Canon HG10) to provide for longer recording and still make editing easy?

[edDV]

I'm just getting familiar with all this but be it the Quickstream or the Firestore, wont they work with a MiniDV (like the Canon HG10) to provide for longer recording and still make editing easy?

Depending on model (do your research) they record in parallel or instead of the tape off the IEEE-1394 port.

When accessed from the computer they are seen as a hard drive.

[JohnnyMalaria]

Both brands have problems that have put me off:

1. The price, of course
2. They both use FAT32.

The second is inexcusable. Supposedly, it is for Mac/Windows compatibility though I suspect the licensing costs of NTFS may play a factor but, given the cost of the product, it could surely be absorbed. Equally, they could bundle the cost of a native read/write NTFS driver for Mac users. FAT32 limits files to 4GB max. For the Firestore it is 2GB (AFAIK) and, looking at the MCE webpage, it may be 1GB (for .mov at least).

For amateur use, all the ruggedness features aren't necessary. I'd happily buy a system that could strap onto a tripod leg. I'd prefer an enclosure that you can swap standard 2.5" drives in and out of.

Oh well.

[edDV]

Both brands have problems that have put me off:

1. The price, of course
2. They both use FAT32.

The second is inexcusable. Supposedly, it is for Mac/Windows compatibility though I suspect the licensing costs of NTFS may play a factor but, given the cost of the product, it could surely be absorbed. Equally, they could bundle the cost of a native read/write NTFS driver for Mac users. FAT32 limits files to 4GB max. For the Firestore it is 2GB (AFAIK) and, looking at the MCE webpage, it may be 1GB (for .mov at least).

For amateur use, all the ruggedness features aren't necessary. I'd happily buy a system that could strap onto a tripod leg. I'd prefer an enclosure that you can swap standard 2.5" drives in and out of.

Oh well.

I agree the Windows prosumer deserves a lower cost prosumer soluton but you don't understand the "political correctness" for Mac and almost more so for the Linux losers.

PS: To understand the term "Linux losers" you need to look east and north of Africa.

[ibi]

How about SC-HMX20C from Samsung which is expected couple of months from now?
Except that it won't use HD, instead record on flash memory what are the pros and cons compared to hdr-sr12
link:
http://gizmodo.com/341079/samsung-sc+hmx20c-hd-camcorder-shoots-1080p-onto-flash-memory

Samsung has figured out how to record 1080p onto flash memory with this SC-HMX20C camcorder. The 10.9-ounce shooter has 8GB of internal flash memory, and can output its sweet 30 frame-per-second video via USB or HDMI. And hey, it has a with its 2.7-inch touchscreen. The catch: We have no idea about pricing, and you'll have to wait until May to get your hands on one. Also, those touchscreens get pretty greasy and funky with all those fingers all over it. Take the jump for a bonus pic and the press release

[edDV]

How about SC-HMX20C from Samsung which is expected couple of months from now?
Except that it won't use HD, instead record on flash memory what are the pros and cons compared to hdr-sr12
link:
http://gizmodo.com/341079/samsung-sc+hmx20c-hd-camcorder-shoots-1080p-onto-flash-memory

Samsung has figured out how to record 1080p onto flash memory with this SC-HMX20C camcorder. The 10.9-ounce shooter has 8GB of internal flash memory, and can output its sweet 30 frame-per-second video via USB or HDMI. And hey, it has a with its 2.7-inch touchscreen. The catch: We have no idea about pricing, and you'll have to wait until May to get your hands on one. Also, those touchscreens get pretty greasy and funky with all those fingers all over it. Take the jump for a bonus pic and the press release

I will challenge you on 1080p (it won't be close compressed that much*) and 30fps which is jumpy on a small sceen and makes one barf on a large screen.

* show me a still resolution chart to test the lens and sensor, then lets see that same stationary chart in pan or zoom.

[imschris]

I am constantly amazed by the kind of misinformation offered by some, who may perhaps not have first hand experience.
This instance relates to recording, viewing and editing with AVCHD.
In particular, I take Racer-x to task about his comment:
"Good luck editing with that mess............
If you don't plan to edit, it should look impressive as long as you keep movement to a minimum................ "

My first question would be: Have you ever shot and seen AVCHD footage? Secondly, have you ever tried to edited it?
I have done both, as I own and have been using a Sony HDR-SR1 for the past 14 months and which I have now upgraded to the HDR-SR12.
The videos as displayed on my 60 inch High Def TV set(1920x1080), are nothing short of superb. I have shot footage on Sydney Harbour, with speed boats zooming past, as well as slower moving cargo ships and yachts. The footage is faultless. It is sharp, detailed and with excellent colour. In fact, on a big screen, it appears as almost 3 dimensional
As for editing, not a problem. Ulead VideoStudio 11, Pinnacle Studio 11 Ultimate, Sony Vegas Pro 8 and Platinum, can all edit AVCHD, and for all practical purposes, from the editor's point of view, the editing looks and feels no different than SD. You will need apowerful computer though. At least dual core.
Using Vegas Pro 8, I have edited clips, complete with the addition of titles, credits, voiceovers and music, and recorded it back into the camcorder for playback on the TV set. Again excellent.
So, for anyone contemplating buying a camcorder using the AVCHD codec, don't get hung up on misinformation based on theories. It works just fine, and it is fast becoming the de-facto standard for consumer camcorders.
If one examines the latest crop from the main camcorder suppliers(Canon, Sony, Panasonic, JVC), they are all introducing AVCHD based HDD, Solid state, or Hybrid camcorders.