Color palette with subrip

[gabier]

Hello,

I extract graphic subtitles from VOB files with Subrip, in .son format, because this is a good format to be used with DVDLAB-Pro. It works rather fine, but depending on the colors of the original subtitles, the result is not always very good. I mean it could be better readable when viewing.
The problem is that I could not succeed in giving a custom palette to Subrip. The user is supposed to be allowed to do so, but if I give my palette, Subrip just outputs the bmps as before without any custom palette.
Does anyone know how to have the possibility to decide the color of the palette (background, outline, main and antialiasing), while retaining the .son format, either with Subrip or another way ?

gabier

[Baldrick]

Try subtitlecreator.

You could also use dvdsubedit to change the colors after you authored with dvdlab-pro.

[manono]

Yeah, it 's not at all important what colors the BMPs within the SON file are. There aren't that many choices anyway. If you can't choose your colors in your authoring program, as Baldrick says use DVDSubEdit afterwards (or PGCEdit) to fix them any way you like.

Here's a guide:

http://download.videohelp.com/DVDSubEdit/Guides/ChangingColors/Guide.htm

[gabier]

Hi, baldrick and manono,

Ok, I will try to change the colors afterwards. Thank you for the guide link.
I will also make some more tests in order to understand this colors puzzle, because my ultimate goal is to get my subtitles right away.

Gabier

[manono]

The BMPs can use just 16 colors (I think). Real subs have a virtually limitless choice of colors. The sub colors are determined in the IFOs. The real sub colors are overlaid on top of the BMPs when the DVD is played. You can't expect to get the final colors in the BMPs. I'd look around in DVDLab-Pro for a way to set the colors. Or maybe someone that actually uses that program can tell you how to do it.

And since you seem to be getting the subs from DVDs, you can export the original color palette from the source DVD and then import it into the final DVD quite easily. PGCEdit does a very fast job of it. Open one of the the DVDs in PGCEdit, double-click the movie and hold your mouse arrow over the "Copy All" button under the CLUT for the full instructions.

Also, I'm not quite sure why you're using DVDLab-Pro for anything, although maybe you have your reasons. If you're reencoding a movie from DVD to shrink the size down to DVD5 size, it's quite a simple matter to stick it back into the original DVD, keeping the original menus, the original sub colors, and anything else you might want to keep. But since that wasn't your question, and since you didn't explain what you're doing, I could have it all wrong. Ask for instructions for anything you might want to know.

[gabier]

Also, I'm not quite sure why you're using DVDLab-Pro for anything, although maybe you have your reasons. .

You seem to be interested in what I am doing that gets me into the subpics issue, so I will start from the begining.

I reauthor DVDs because I do not want to keep the original menus, I want to have mines. I have tried to keep the original menus, and it is definitely possible, but I do not like this way. It is quite tricky. Menus and links between them and between pgcs and buttons are different every time, thus it is quite time consuming to get sure everything is working all right. Also you have to find out what is useful and what is useless and sort all the stuff accordingly.
Instead I reauthor first with DVDShrink, keeping only the movie and the necessary languages and subpics. Then I demux the compressed VOB and reauthor it with DVD-Lab, in which I have my own menu structures, one for a simple movie with only one language, one with 2 languages and one subpic, and one for 2 languages and 2 subpics. DVD-Lab is very powerfull in that respect. You can have a set of menus to handle the languages and subpics choices, and you can enclose these in a standard component and reuse it when needed.
This way the process is much always the same and quite simple.

The hard point is the subpics. I have no demux which outputs subpics in a format acceptable by DVD-LAB (sub, srt, ssa, son, sst). That is why I use the compressed VOB to rip the subpics with SubRip et get them in .son format. The problem here (besides the unicode/text issue we discussed in another thread) is that SubRip outputs a .son format in the sense that there is a bunch of bmps, one for each subpic, and a .son file wich is a list of the timing of each bmp file. But the colors used in the bmps is quite strange. SubRip just figures out what colors DVD Maestro would like, and this gives a strange palette (very different from the original palette in the VOB) with for instance a red background, a blue body, a black outline, and a white antialias. DVD-Lab does not like at all this color matching, because these 4 colors are indeed the colors it expects but not in that order. They are shuffled, and thus it shuffles also the colors in the subpics and the result is not optimal. I do not know if it is SubRip or DVD-Lab that has a wrong idea of what the correct colors are in a .son format, but obviously they do not agree.
I hope I was clear.

I'd look around in DVDLab-Pro for a way to set the colors. Or maybe someone that actually uses that program can tell you how to do it.

The DVD-Lab specs are very clear. It wants at input : black (100% transparent) background and white (100% opaque) body, or conversely. It wants also red oulines and blue antialias. If these specs are met, then you can ask the final subbpics to have yellow or white body, and all sorts of packaging for ouline and antialiases. But if the input specs are not met, the final aspect of the subpics is unpredictable (as far as I understood the way it works).

you can export the original color palette from the source DVD and then import it into the final DVD quite easily

Very interesting. I will try to use this. But I expect that to have the good palette is not enough, also each category of pixels (body, etc...) must use the right color in the palette.

What I need is a tool which could have the following features
1. Rip the subpics
2. user specified palette
3. user specified palette colors for background, body, outline and antialias
4. ouputs a .son structure with the user specified palette and colors.
Subrip does 1 and 4 but not 2 and 3, DVDSubEdit does 1, 2 and 3 but not 4. It exports subpics in SUP format. Maybe I can find a way to go from sup to son, if it is a tool that does not touch to the palette nor to the colors.

Of course, until I find the solution as outlined above, I just change the subpics on the final DVD. For this task DVDSubEdit is a very powerfull tool indeed

Gabier

[manono]

Hi-

I have tried to keep the original menus, and it is definitely possible, but I do not like this way. It is quite tricky. Menus and links between them and between pgcs and buttons are different every time, thus it is quite time consuming to get sure everything is working all right

Nonsense, it's the easiest thing in the world. You can thank DVD Shrink for messing up the links.

SubRip just figures out what colors DVD Maestro would like, and this gives a strange palette (very different from the original palette in the VOB) with for instance a red background, a blue body, a black outline, and a white antialias.

Yes, SubRip is pretty peculiar in that respect. You might try SubResynch (comes included with VobSub) and see if the SON files it creates are more to your liking. You have to open an IDX/SUB file, though, rather than the IFO that SubRip can work with.

But as I suspected, you're trying to reinvent the wheel. You can do it much more easily, and get the exact same subs back, with next to no work at all just by being willing to change your methods. And now that you've explained it to me, I'm more convinced than ever that DVDLab-Pro is the last thing you need to be using.

Since you're using DVD Shrink (which, in my opinion, no one concerned with quality should be using), use it in Reauthor Mode to get just the movie. Then put the Shrink reauthored movie back into the original DVD following this guide:

http://jsoto.posunplugged.com/guides/VobBlanker/adding_menus/index.htm

It's going to give you the original menus, though. For reasons I didn't quite understand, you seem to prefer your own menus, even though doing it your way means a whole lot of additional work. You can also use PGCEdit and/or VobBlanker to remove anything you don't want, such as warnings, extras, logos, and other garbage.

[gabier]

Nonsense, it's the easiest thing in the world. You can thank DVD Shrink for messing up the links.

Sorry, manono, but i do not agree. You do not seem to realize that I am NOT a video specialist and that using VobBlanker and PGCEdit to shuflle menus and pgcs is beyond my possibilities to process a DVD safely. All I can do is to apply a detailed tutorial.
The guide you mention is quite clear and effective. I know it very well and I have reauthored about 10 DVDs following this tutorial. But my opinion is that it is time consuming. Processing with VobBlanker is not a task you can make without concentrating on the DVD structure, and there are several check steps (especially step 9) which are highly DVD dependant. I can assure you that I spend much less time by my way than by the Blutach's guide way. Maybe the computer works more, but not me. This being said, it is everyone's choice to prefer to have the variety of original menus, and spend a little time to get this, or to have standardized ones and spend less time.

Also, what do you mean with DVDShrink messing the links ? DVDShrink does not keep any menu, there are no more links, as far as I know.

Since you're using DVD Shrink (which, in my opinion, no one concerned with quality should be using),

Even with the "deep analysis" and the "quality enhancements" options ? Then how do you shrink the VOBs ?

As a last remark, I can add that most of my movies DVDs come from television DVB-T and not from retailed DVDs . For these DVB-T streams I have an effective processing scheme, with ProjectX producing ready to process streams for DVD-Lab. That is also why I would like the other source to go through the same pipe.

Gabier
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[manono]

Hi-

Processing with VobBlanker is not a task you can make without concentrating on the DVD structure, and there are several check steps (especially step 9) which are highly DVD dependant.

Yes, that's true, and you have to follow the step 9 because of what Shrink does to your DVDs when you remove audio and/or subtitle streams. They've been renumbered and the links from the original menu will often not work, or not work correctly. That part of my post was in response to your remarks earlier noting the same thing as justification for why you do it your way:

Menus and links between them and between pgcs and buttons are different every time, thus it is quite time consuming to get sure everything is working all right.

For example, say you have English, French, Spanish, and Director's Commentary audio streams in an English language movie which might be numbered 1, 2, 3, and 4. If it were I, I'd remove the French (no offense intended ) and Spanish tracks and keep the English and DC. So, Shrink renumbers them as 1 and 2. You add back the original menu without adjusting anything, and the link to the DC doesn't work. If you had used, for example, DVD Rebuilder, it keeps the numbering the same, has 2 empty streams for 2 and 3, and the DC is still number 4, and the DC link in the menus, maybe in the audio menu or in the Extras/Special Features menu (or both) still works. This is a quirk of Shrink. If you reauthor without afterwards adding back a menu, it works fine. If you later add a menu, you can still easily find the changed audio or subtitle streams with the remote control, but choosing them through the menu might be broken. But most people that use Shrink in Reauthor Mode don't then intend to have a menu also, I would guess.

But my opinion is that it is time consuming.

I'll agree that it takes a little bit of time to remap the links, as is necessary sometimes. That guide makes everything look more complicated than it really is because Blutach tries to cover all the different possibilities. But if you do it a few times, you learn what has to be done for the different DVDs you come across. It usually doesn't take me more than 5 minutes or so to do it and test it out to make sure I did it right.

Also, what do you mean with DVDShrink messing the links ? DVDShrink does not keep any menu, there are no more links, as far as I know.

Right, but as I explained above, it's when you add back the menu that you can run into problems because of Shrink renumbering the audio and subs after you've removed one or more of them.

Then how do you shrink the VOBs ?

I reencode. If you don't know how, then I might suggest you let DVD Rebuilder do it for you. Pre-process with VobBlanker and/or PGCEdit to remove what you don't want and then send the DVD to DVD Rebuilder to reencode whatever you're keeping. Or spend a little bit of money for the Pro version so you can do all the removing and many other things completely within DVD-RB. I do it all manually. I don't believe in transcoders. If I have to shrink it down only a little bit, there are many things you can do without reencoding the main movie, from stilling or reencoding a menu or 2 or a logo, to reencoding just the end credits or an extra that I might be keeping.

There are lots of ways to do these things, and if doing it your way suits you, then that's what counts, of course. Just make the SON file and create the DVD subs without worrying about the colors, and then fix them afterwards using DVDSubEdit, or (faster) by using PGCEdit to get the original color palette, or (even faster) by fixing the colors in the CLUT (which is how I usually do it).

[gabier]

I have tried to install DVDRebuilder to test it but I could not succeed. The installer of Avisynth (apparently prerequisite) aborts : cannot acceed to the system directory. I tried to download Avysinth and install it first, but the result is similar : abort with CRC check. No luck indeed.

Gabier

[manono]

Gee, that's strange. I haven't heard of that problem before.

I don't know which version you tried to install, but maybe get the latest 2.5.7 following these instructions:

http://niiyan.net/?HowToDownloadAviSynth#mbe8ba2f

And then try again following these instructions:

http://niiyan.net/?HowToInstallAviSynth

And then when reinstalling DVD-RB, don't let it reinstall AviSynth. I don't understand much about administrator priviledges and who's allowed to install stuff on computers, so if you've run into that kind of a problem, someone else will have to help.

[gabier]

Your guess was right , probably I downloaded a bad version. Following your link, everything installed OK. A couple of questions though :
- I do not understand what the various encoders are. Apparently the free version comes with QuEnc, but the much praised encoder CCE is not included. Is it included in the pro version (30$ ) ? Is it worth or is QuEnc good enough ?
- It seems that if you want the "movie only", again you have to get the pro version.
- I did not find yet how to choose the VOBs you want to process, nor the compression ratio.
I launched the encoding of a movie to see what is the result, but it is quite long ... not yet finished.

Gabier

[manono]

Hi-

- I do not understand what the various encoders are. Apparently the free version comes with QuEnc, but the much praised encoder CCE is not included. Is it included in the pro version (30$ ) ? Is it worth or is QuEnc good enough ?

Don't use QuEnc, is my advice, as the also free HCEnc (aka HC) is also included, and is generally considered to be one of the best encoders around, free or commercial. Although DVD Rebuilder supports CCE, because CCE is a commercial encoder it's not included in either version of DVD-RB. The basic version is US $50 and the full version is $2000. But don't worry, you won't be giving up anything by using HCEnc.

- It seems that if you want the "movie only", again you have to get the pro version.

If you want to do a movie-only encode entirely from within DVD-RB then, yes, you'll need the Pro version. However, as I mentioned earlier, if you prepare your assets before sending them to DVD-RB, then it'll encode for movie only. By "prepare", I mean get rid of what you don't want. Perhaps the easiest way to do that is with VobBlanker. Here's a guide to blanking (removing stuff) using VobBlanker.

http://download.videohelp.com/jsoto/guides/VobBlanker/blanking/index.php

- I did not find yet how to choose the VOBs you want to process, nor the compression ratio.
I launched the encoding of a movie to see what is the result, but it is quite long ... not yet finished.

Once you get the movie-only DVD from VobBlanker, it's going to only encode the movie. If you keep any extras, you can choose to give them lower quality than the main movie. As for compression ratio, it will compress them as much as it takes to have them fit the DVD5. If I remember correctly, not only the log but the log as shown on the main screen show the percentage compression. The free version won't reencode menus, where the Pro version will. You really want to strip out everything you don't want. For example, Europeans have a greater chance of having menus in different languages than do us US people, so it might be in your best interests to at least still any menus you won't be using, if not actually blank them. And you'll want to remove any logos, warnings, extras you don't want in VobBlanker and then doing a full Process on it, before then sending it to DVD-Rebuilder. DVD-RB can remove the languages. There are many guides to the use of DVD-RB which you'll find on this site and elsewhere. This one's pretty good:

http://www.afterdawn.com/guides/archive/dvdrb_free_basic_ops.cfm

Although DVD-RB is fairly easy to set up and use, and after a couple of times you'll be able to do everything quickly, there is a bit of a learning curve involved. And because you'll be running a 2-pass encoder, rather than a transcoder, it's going to take longer than does DVD shrink. But the quality will be better. Good luck.

[gabier]

Thanks manono,

I will try to use DVDRB as you say. My subtitles problem has not improved much, but if I get a much better quality, I will not have posted for nothing. This quality issue did not strike me so much before, but I suppose that with high definition coming, it's better to output better quality DVDs.

And you never know, maybe some day I will keep the original menus

gabier

[Taisho]

AS much great stuff Manano and Baldrick have brought to the video world it is hard to say this... here they never answered the question gabier was grapling with.
As I understand gabier simply asked why/how Subrip's color palette is not giving any colors, maybe it is all black or white. As I understand that part of Subrip, only the IFO gives you any control over the color palette. Opening VOB files will default to black. This can be a bit confusing especially when working with Hardsubs. Good luck to Gabier, who by now is probably a Dr. in video and subtitles.
1. Once the VOB is extracted, open SubRip; do not eject the disk!
2. Open the VOB file (File > Open VOB(s)) in SubRip
3. Click Open IFO (have faith)
4. Select the IFO for the file you just ripped. If you're not sure, make a best guess, as this is only needed to create the DVD color palette. If you see all black boxes in the DVD color palette section, repeat this step
5. Click Open Dir
6. Select the VOB you ripped
7. Uncheck the Autoselect matching VOBs checkbox
8. Make sure the file you want is checked in the Vob(Sub) file section
9. Leave all other settings at their defaults; Click Start
10. Now is the fun part...you have to teach SubRip
11. If you are ripping subtitles from TV shows, it is useful to save the Characters Matrix File. This stores what SubRip learned during your subtitle rip and makes subsequent rips easy. Keep in mind, you should not reuse this on other DVDs as subtitle methods may not work.
12. If you have to interrupt the SubRip process or you are processing more than one VOB at a time, make sure to clear the text file and also reset the time code. Otherwise, the subtitles won't match up to the video.
13 If it doesn't look like any subtitles are ripping, then check the VOB file (VLC player can play them) to make sure the subtitles are there (re-rip if they are not). If so, then make sure the DVD color palette in SubRip is not all black (there should be a number of different colors); if so repeat steps 2-4. Thx Mcllc
Check out http://zuggy.wz.cz/guides/video.htm it explains how to change colors for better recognition... all in Subrip.

[manono]

AS much great stuff Manano and Baldrick have brought to the video world it is hard to say this... here they never answered the question gabier was grapling with.

And neither did you. And there's nothing like opening up a five year old thread just to write a long post completely irrelevant to the original subject of the thread.

He was making SON subtitle files for use in DVD Lab. SON is a graphic or image-based subtitle format. He wasn't OCRing to a text-based subtitle format. He was extracting the BMPs and didn't understand that the 'final' colors you see when playing the subs on a DVD aren't the same as the BMP colors. Those final colors are overlaid on top of the BMPs. Later on, if necessary, you can extract the original color palette from the original DVD (PGCEdit) and then import it to the new DVD with the new subs. Me, I hardly ever bother as I like to choose my own colors.