MiniDV tapes that are "designed for HD" - any truth to that?

[Big Chupa]

I just got a Canon HV20 and the manual recommends buying miniDV tapes that are "specifically designed for High Definition." I have seen tapes from Sony et. al. that are labeled as such, but is there really any difference between these tapes and normal miniDV tapes? I'm just remembering the days when writable CD's came out and there were all these CD's labeled as "for music" and they were much more expensive than the "data CD's," although as we all know, there was absolutely no difference.

[jagabo]

I'm just remembering the days when writable CD's came out and there were all these CD's labeled as "for music" and they were much more expensive than the "data CD's," although as we all know, there was absolutely no difference.

There was a difference. The music CD-R media was for use in standalone recorders (which wouldn't record on regular CD-R media). The price included a tax as stipulated in the Home Audio Recording Act.

I suspect the HDV tapes have fewer dropouts because a dropout with regular DV effects only one frame, but with HDV it can effect an entire GOP.

[JohnnyMalaria]

No difference. The tape can't tell 00110101 in DV from 00110101 in HD.

Just don't use the cheaper brands/grades and don't mix brands.

[edDV]

The difference is depth of modulation. With digital the image quality is the same. The difference is the strength of the signal recorded to tape and the dropout quality.

The other difference between consumer and pro tapes is ruggedness. Pro tapes get rough treatment in fast wind pro decks and are reused more often. Pro tapes have tougher backings and better binders.

I've tesed several bargain tapes from Sony, Fuji and Panasonic in my HV-20 and they all work. For safety sake I've standardized on Pro Panasonic AY-DVM63PQ as my standard tape, the same tape I use in my Sony PD-150. At $3.55 ($2.70 on sale) I buy these in 5 or ten packs online and stock up when there is a sale.

http://protape.stores.yahoo.net/paprqu63mimi.html

Sony sells their more expensive DVM63HD for $8-12. They claim the main advantage is freedom from dropouts.
http://protape.stores.yahoo.net/sodvhigrmidv.html

[Richard_G]

It's no different to Sony Digital8 tapes and Sony Hi8 tapes. If you get the Sony Hi8 HME tapes they are absolutely identical to the Sony Digital8 tapes, just cheaper.

[Big Chupa]

Thanks everyone - once again, these forums blow me away with the depth of knowledge. I bought some of the Sony DVM63's. I learned something about music CD's too.

[mzakuan87]

So which one is better? the HD one or Panasonic AY-DVM63PQ ? for broadcast quality?

[2Bdecided]

HDV is not broadcast quality, and does not offer broadcast levels of robustness. DV is/was just the same.

That doesn't mean it's not used for broadcast - but it's rejected by real broadcasters outside of news environments.

Cheers,
David.

[edDV]

HDV is not broadcast quality, and does not offer broadcast levels of robustness. DV is/was just the same.

That doesn't mean it's not used for broadcast - but it's rejected by real broadcasters outside of news environments.

Cheers,
David.

Huh? In what world do you live?
More than half of Discovery/TLC/etc. and the other cable/sat network programming is DV format original (DVCAM or DVCPRO). Almost all "reality" type shows on major networks have been using DVCAM/DVCPro for years. Several network series are shot on DVCProHD Varicam.

The Discovery HD channel is almost all HDV or DVCProHD except for the major programs shot on film or a few on HDCAM.

[2Bdecided]

http://www.bbc.co.uk/guidelines/dq/pdf/tv/hd_summary_delivery_formats_v1_7.pdf

2.1. The following formats are considered to be standard definition:
...
* HDV from all manufactures

DVCam and DVCPRO are, of course, the robust versions of DV designed for broadcast, which is the exact point I was making.

Cheers,
David.

[Soopafresh]

I read those BBC standard requirements some time ago. I thought they were far too stringent.

[2Bdecided]

It creates an interesting situation where there is a lot of content that is arguably "better than SD" which cannot be shown on the HD service.

Those standards are temporary...
http://www.bbc.co.uk/guidelines/dq/contents/television.shtml#HD%20delivery%20summary
...but the latest revision leave HDV as SD. I think they want to avoid whole programmes of HDV - 25Mbps MPEG-2 isn't an ideal source to be transcoding for broadcast - simple as that.

For SD, their playout servers are 50Mbps MPEG-2 I-frame only (i.e. roughly double DV). It would be a "brave" move to allow half that for HD at source.

Cheers,
David.

[JohnnyMalaria]

I read those BBC standard requirements some time ago. I thought they were far too stringent.

The BBC plays a very important role in developing, implementing and maintaining new technical standards for TV. This has a benefit - there isn't the insidious proliferation of frankly amateur, low budget crap that has become the norm on cable TV here. It seems anyone and his dog can pick up an HDV camcorder and make a rip-off of an existing and successful series. I could rant on about this more but I won't.

[edDV]

Those BBC standards* are for core programming and mostly relate to mechanical tape interchange issues. For SD, DV is DV whether consumer or DVCAM or DVCPro, they all use the same DV 25Mb/s encoding standard. The only difference is tape mechanics**.

DVCPro50 (4:2:2) is mostly a production standard but some networks use it as an alternative to Digital Betacam for playback.

In the HD segment, choice of format follows need. HDCAM and DVCProHD are used for higher budget production. Longer term AVCIntra will become acceptable for major projects.

Low end highly compressed consumer MPeg4 formats intended for flash memory such as AVCHD are clearly sub-broadcast if only for the generation loss hit when editing or transcoding. First generation quality is good but no broadcaster is going to play AVCHD direct to air even in the smallest third world nation.

The middle HD gray zone is MPeg2 (HDV and XDCAM), DVCProHD and AVCIntra50.

Panasonic has been highly successful replacing Betacam with DVCPro for news and reality SD programming. DVCProHD has quality advantage over HDV as a transitional news format. For HD production DVCProHD has specialist niches with 720p and Varicam.

Sony has been a strong advocate of editable MPeg2 starting with Betacam IMX, then HDV and then the higher bitrate XDCAM and XDCAM-HD. XDCAM-HD at 35Mb/s is Sony's answer to 100Mb/s DVCProHD and has advantage for flash memory and data transfer. HDV is well supported for budget production and small market news gathering.

Panasonic has the next generation MPeg4 AVCIntra formats (50Mb/s and 100 Mb/s) that seem targeted at mid to high end production and may be offered in lower bit rate news versions. ADVIntra records all frames in the tradition of Digital Betacam, DV and HDCAM.

* The BBC widely uses HDV for instructional and various local production.
** PAL DVCPro uses 4:1:1 sampling for better multigeneration editing performance vs. 4:2:0.

[SCDVD]

I have heard and don't know if it is true that it is a good idea not to use different brands of tape in the same camera. The apparent reason is that there are different kinds of lubricant (wet and dry) used on different brands of tape. This incompatibility of lubricant can cause a buildup in a camera. As I said, I have no idea if this is true or not. Maybe it's just a "street" story. I wold appreciate any comments on this.

[edDV]

I have heard and don't know if it is true that it is a good idea not to use different brands of tape in the same camera. The apparent reason is that there are different kinds of lubricant (wet and dry) used on different brands of tape. This incompatibility of lubricant can cause a buildup in a camera. As I said, I have no idea if this is true or not. Maybe it's just a "street" story. I wold appreciate any comments on this.

It was true in the early days of DV tape but now less of an issue with recent formulations.

It is less risky to stick with one brand but many of us need to accept tapes from others. Worse case the camcorder needs to be cleaned more often.