HDV Quality Transfer?

[gz023247]

Hi folks,

I am posting here with my fingers crossed hoping someone can help me out.

I have a disabled son that suffers from a muscle wasting disease called Duchenne Muscular Dystrophy. When he was first diagnosed as an act of shock his mum and I took him away to Disney Land in Florida and I took a new camcorder (JVC GR-D60EK) which we bought to record as much as we could.

A few months after getting back I set around putting the footage onto DVD, only to find that the tape heads were broken on the camcorder and the sound had only recorded in certain parts . We were devestated as this was a trip of a lifetime for him and we wanted footage to look back on when he passes away.

Anyhow, last year I bought a new Sony HDV camcorder (HDR-HC3) from ebay from a guy in the USA....price was a lot lower than what you would pay here in the UK. So far from footage watched on the telly it seems to be doing a great job and wished we had this when we went away to Florida. Got some good camping & xmas footage now.

Now, as you could imagine with the camcorder been a high def one, I am trying to keep the quality as good as possible to watch from DVD. However this has become more of a problem than first thought.

Now via use of a firewire cable I have transfered the footage from my camcorder onto the Ulead Video Studio 11 Plus software on my PC.
I bought X2 blank HD DVD disks only to learn you cant use them in a standard DVDR drive on your pc....so they are no good for me to write on! DOH!

Next I ask the software to save the footage onto my hardrive (60 mins worth) as HDV. Just after an hour the new video file is sitting on the desktop just short of 9gig..........so now I cant use my double layer disks either as the new file is too big!

The only option I seem to have is to transfer it onto a 4.6gig DVD......which I have done, one with no editing, the other with a few captions and music added. Strange thing is both are of the same size - just short of 4gig
I have not yet watched either disk, as dreading what the quality will be like!

Surely there must be a way for me to transer this footage I have onto a DVD with decent quality? As you could imagine it is important for me to get the best quality possible for years to come.

Any help and advie would be greatly appreciated.
Regards
Dean

[edDV]

So do I read correctly that the JVC GR-D60EK is a PAL model and the HDR-HC3 is an NTSC model? If so the HC-3 won't play PAL tapes from the D60EK. You might want to borrow or rent a PAL MiniDV camcorder to capture those tapes.

For the HC-3 you have three choices.

1. Set the camcorder to output in 720x480i DV format, edit as NTSC DV then make a DVD in the normal manner. Keep the HDV tape for HD editing in the future.

2. Set the camcorder to output in 1440x1080i HDV format, edit as NTSC HDV format. Output an edit master to HDV tape or to a file for storage. You will need to keep file size to 4.3GB or less to store on a data DVD. These won't play from the DVD on any player or computer. You would need to copy from DVD to the computers hard drive to play the file.

Next create a downsized 720x480i DVD for play on your current DVD equipment. Consult the VS11 manual for steps.

Keep the HDV tape for HD editing in the future.

3. Edit a HDV master as described above. Buy a HD DVD or Blue Ray Burner and author a High Def DVD. You will need to buy a HD DVD player to play the disc to a HDTV.

PS: BluRay players will natively play a HDV M2t format file.

[gz023247]

Thanks for the reply. I will explain a little further to clarify matters.

Ok, the tapes recorded on the JVC camcorder will be in PAL format due to the camcorder bought in the UK. As the heads on the camcorder were not working correctly at the time of recording the tapes are somewhat useless, so I simply transfered the footage recorded from the JVC camcorder to DVD disks using the JVC camcorder & PC. Like I said previous, there is a sound issue on the tapes (and now on the dvds) but I will just have to live with that.

The new Sony camcorder I guess will be NTSC.......to be honest I had not thought about that. I think I was under the impression that one the footage was on my PC then I could make sure it was in PAL prior to burning, etc.

I checked the 2 disks I burnt last night, and to be honest I was really suprised at how the quality was better than expected. Maybe possibly because with the JVC camcorder it was not HD so quality looked a bit naff, but with the Sony one it seems very reasonable. And I must have changed the settings in the program correctly for it to be PAL, as the 2 disks played fine on my DVD player.

However, one disk was in 4:3 and not 16:9......so looks like I need to sort something out....possibly over looked something.

One thing I have noted is everyone seems to say to keep the mini dv cassettes for future......why is that....do the tapes have a good life span, etc?

Finally, the note regarding buying a HD DVD Burner....edDV seems that is a no go in the UK......cant find one, which is odd as they sell the blank disks. Seems you can buy a Bluray burner though, but how would that work with a HD camcorder, 2 different formats or does that not matter??

[gz023247]

Forgot to ask, prior to me connecting the camcorder to the PC, I tried connecting the camcorder to a Liteon standalone DVD recorder via the DV ports......but it never worked....could control the camcorder, hear sound, but no picture.

Do you think this may be due to the camcorder been NTSC?

[edDV]

Thanks for the reply. I will explain a little further to clarify matters.

Ok, the tapes recorded on the JVC camcorder will be in PAL format due to the camcorder bought in the UK. As the heads on the camcorder were not working correctly at the time of recording the tapes are somewhat useless, so I simply transferred the footage recorded from the JVC camcorder to DVD disks using the JVC camcorder & PC. Like I said previous, there is a sound issue on the tapes (and now on the dvds) but I will just have to live with that.

If the heads were malfunctioning, you might get better results dubbing those tapes from another PAL DV camcorder. Its a long shot but you might get a better dub.

The new Sony camcorder I guess will be NTSC.......to be honest I had not thought about that. I think I was under the impression that one the footage was on my PC then I could make sure it was in PAL prior to burning, etc.

I checked the 2 disks I burnt last night, and to be honest I was really surprised at how the quality was better than expected. Maybe possibly because with the JVC camcorder it was not HD so quality looked a bit naff, but with the Sony one it seems very reasonable. And I must have changed the settings in the program correctly for it to be PAL, as the 2 disks played fine on my DVD player.

Most PAL DVD players and TV sets will play an NTSC DVD. You might get better results authoring the DVD as 16:9 NTSC.

However, one disk was in 4:3 and not 16:9......so looks like I need to sort something out....possibly over looked something.

Project preference settings should be 16:9 (wide) and NTSC. Same with DVD preferences.

One thing I have noted is everyone seems to say to keep the mini dv cassettes for future......why is that....do the tapes have a good life span, etc?

For the old JVC tapes, you have a chance for recovery and better quality using other equipment. Regardless, the quality on MiniDV tape is always better than DVD. Also, MiniDV tape is likely to outlast a DVD into the future.

For the new camcorder, you save the tapes for the same reasons plus you will be able to extract full high definition in the future with better software, a high def writer and a high def player.

Finally, the note regarding buying a HD DVD Burner....edDV seems that is a no go in the UK......cant find one, which is odd as they sell the blank disks. Seems you can buy a Bluray burner though, but how would that work with a HD camcorder, 2 different formats or does that not matter??

HD DVD and BluRay writers are expensive currently. There is a format war preventing people from buying one or the other until a winner is declared (BluRay looks stronger this week). When this sorts out, a prices will begin to drop for writers, media and players.

[2Bdecided]

I think edDV answered a question that you didn't ask in your first post.

HDV is 13GB per hour.

There are no convenient ways of burning HD content onto disc for viewing in stand-alone players right now. I think people have had luck burning the HDV m2t files onto DVD (limit of 20 minutes!) and viewing them in PS3s or something. Now isn't the time to buy into HD-DVD (the format looks set to lose the format war), and BluRay burners are only just appearing. If you want to be the first, and spend lots of money and time, go for it. Otherwise, do what everyone else does with HDV...

Keep the original tapes because they are your master, they only cost ~£1 each (cheaper than any other form of storage), and they have good longevity (unless a bad deck eats them).

Keep a copy of the HDV m2t files on HDD. You'll want these to work with, and it provides a back up of the tapes. Some people copy the tapes onto two HDDs, and put one away for safe keeping, typically in a different house. In the 21st century, when all our memories (photos and video) are digital, this is a way to stop the whole let getting wiped out by a fire, burglary, or the equipment being faulty / wearing out (all HDDs wear out eventually).

Edit in HD.

Downconvert to SD for burning on standard DVD discs for sharing with family and friends.

Encode to WMV or similar for sharing HD versions to be viewed on a PC.

Plug the camcorder straight into your HDTV if you have one to watch in HD. You can print the edited footage back onto (new) miniDV tape in HDV format, and watch from this. Or plug your PC into your TV.


It seems you've bought an NTSC model. Don't try to convert the footage unless you have to - it's a messy and often poor quality process. Be aware that some PAL TVs (older ones) won't display NTSC content properly - and some will only display it properly when connected via RGB SCART (which is how you should have your DVD player connected anyway).

Hope all this helps.

I would second the advice to try another camcorder on the damaged tapes - or a head cleaner. However, it's weird to have faultless picture but no sound from DV - typically both will break up, with the picture showing faults first.

Cheers,
David.

[gz023247]

Thanks for all the advice guys. I tried the project as a NTSC in 16:9 and what do you know.....worked a treat on my DVD player and looked fine on the TV.....no more 4:3 ratio thank goodness!!

I have taken your advice and started to write on the tapes what footage is on there so I don't overwrite. I was not planning to do this, but as said there is no great way to transfer footage over right now, so may as well hold onto the tapes.

David, wish I was buying taoes where you get them from mate! lol.....my local sony shop sells them around £8-£12 per tape! I had to resort to buying mine from ebay from a guy in Japan to make it worth while buying them due to cost! Bought 20 in one go!

All the joys eh!

[JohnnyMalaria]

Regarding HD-DVD burners, they are next to impossible to find - almost as if they don't really exist.

However...you can create HD DVDs on normal DVD-Rs. They won't hold much, of course, but they can be played in HD using an HD DVD player. There are many people who report doing this successfully.

[gz023247]

Thanks for the reply JohnnyMalaria in reference to the HD on standard DVDR............that was really what I was loking to try and achieve in the first instance, BUT, with all the talk about HD going down under as bluray seems to be taking over I did not feel to excited about transfering my footage onto HD to find its no good in say 12 months time.

I noticed you said the HD content could be played in a HD player, but I was on the understanding that if you were just burning to a DVDR then this could be played in a normal DVD player rather than a HD one?

Something that sprung to mind last night regarding keeping the original footage on these tapes. Lets say in a few years time something comes along and I can transfer this footage onto a good media, etc, will I need the original Sony camcorder to play the tapes.......as I was thinking if in a fews years time I changed my camcorder and bought one here in the UK, it would be PAL and not NTSC like the present one..............would that cause problems playing the tapes?

[JohnnyMalaria]

I noticed you said the HD content could be played in a HD player, but I was on the understanding that if you were just burning to a DVDR then this could be played in a normal DVD player rather than a HD one?

A normal DVD player doesn't know how to decode the HD content.

Something that sprung to mind last night regarding keeping the original footage on these tapes. Lets say in a few years time something comes along and I can transfer this footage onto a good media, etc, will I need the original Sony camcorder to play the tapes.......as I was thinking if in a fews years time I changed my camcorder and bought one here in the UK, it would be PAL and not NTSC like the present one..............would that cause problems playing the tapes?

In a few years, a lot can happen. Playback equipment using the MiniDV format may no longer be available. If it is available, whether a particular machine can play PAL and NTSC is a different matter.

Depending on the quantity of material, you could capture the whole lot to a hard drive and put it aside. Again, the landscape in a few years may change considerably making retrieving the data from the hard drive tricky due to the interface etc becoming redundant.

[2Bdecided]

I'm using Sony Premium miniDV tapes (i.e. bog standard miniDV tapes) - they were £1 each on Amazon before Christmas. Now about £1.20 each.

Some people use the HDV tapes to avoid drop outs, but I can find people using HDV tapes who do report drop outs (maybe faulty camcorders?), and people using Sony Premium who say they get no drop outs. Myself, I saw a couple of drop outs on my first few tapes through the HV20, but haven't seen any since. I would expect about 1 per tape, just like with DV, but with more dramatic consequences (1 second freeze with HDV, rather than one frame error with DV).

I couldn't afford to wave the HV20 around and shoot rubbish like I do if I had to buy real HDV tapes!

One thing you must not do is swap tape types, especially from different manufacturers. Stick with one brand.

With DV, you can't expect PAL machines to play NTSC. Some do, some don't. Same with HDV. Generally pro machines can switch, consumer machines can't - but some can!

Cheers,
David.

[edDV]

If you plan to sell the camcorder capture the tapes to hard drive first.