I would like to start by saying that I have a Hi8 samsung camcorder I bought a couple years ago when I thought I would simply record, edit, publish movies, and live happily ever-after.
Here I am 3 years later with a little sense knocked into me. 8)
In this post HD = Hard Drive/Memory Card/Digital Storage
So here is my question in a nut-shell: Given that I want a CONVENT/SIMPLE/FAST way to get footage on to a PC for editing, is it really worth all the trouble to go MiniDV instead of the simple HD camcorders?
You see, the reason I want a new camcorder isn't that my old one is that bad of quality - it is that I have to fight for hours to get it through the TV Tuner onto my PC so I can edit it. I want to get the footage on my PC fast, (that is 1#) followed by video quality, then poor light conditions.
From what I have been reading HD cams seem to have noticeably poorer video quality compared to MiniDV cams (like what LCD's used to be compared to standard monitors). Now is this true, or is it just producer ego baloney?
Second, if MiniDV is really that much better - how much? And do you have to jump though hoops to get it on your PC? I don't care about "one click to DVD" stuff - because I will be using Vegas and Premiere Pro to create mostly web (320-640) videos (but 720/DVD will also be needed). What I want is Digital camera simplicity -just plug it in and download.
In addition, I have read about CCCD and I would love to find a 3CCCD - but I probably wont for my price range.
So for about $500 I would like (in order):
Instant PC/Digital format.
Good Video Quality
Good Poor-light handling (at less a 3)
shutter control (like settings for 1, 30, or 60 frames a sec)
Ability to hold more than 45min of footage.
What I don't need:
Still images
High Def
So far I am thinking about the Sony DCR-SR62 & DCR-SR42. So could anyone add to what I have down or suggest a camcorder? Thanks!
Here is an example: http://www.amazon.com/Sony-DCR-SR42-Handycam-Camcorder-Optical/dp/B000M3LJ5U/ref=sr_1_...0070145&sr=1-9
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Originally Posted by Xeoncross
If you really want a simple solution, you should consider the DVD camcorders. The footage is recorded onto a DVD-R and you simply take it out and put it in your PC.
However, both the HDD and DVD camcorders suffer from using a less than ideal compression format. The DV format is the most widely used and has the greatest software support. Tapes are cheap and can be removed from the camcorder whereas the HDD can't.
Personally, I'd go with the MiniDV format. -
Originally Posted by JohnnyMalaria
But if both HD and MiniDV have to have the file encoded into a REAL digital format (binary not film) - then what is the point of HD? I want a camcorder that works like a Digital Camera - just download and your done.
Can you clear this up?
Originally Posted by JohnnyMalaria
Thanks for your reply. -
Those hard drive cameras record in MPEG-2 format which is highly compressed and difficult to edit compared to MiniDV. MPEG-2 is DVD standard and is meant to be your final viewing format, not the format you begin with like on those hard drive cameras. MiniDV has to be transferred in real time but the footage is extremely easy to edit and manipulate and with any basic editor you can make whatever changes you want and output it back to tape and/or DVD for viewing on a TV.
My other argument for hard drive vs. tape is that footage you shoot on hard drive or DVD camcorders will most likely be lost eventually from media failure. MiniDV tapes will still exist 10-15 years from now. Everything degrades over time and MiniDV tapes are no exception. In 15 years some of the 0's and 1's on the tape may be corrupt but your footage will still be mostly intact.
Nothing lasts forever but for my important memories like my son growing up I will trust a tape over a hard drive any day of the week.
For camcorders have you looked at the Panasonic PV-GS line of consumer 3CCD cameras? The GS500 is not in production any more but there's enough out there you can still find them new without too much trouble. There's also the GS320 which has less features than the GS500 but has the same optics and can be had for $400 or less.
That's my $.02 worth. -
Originally Posted by Xeoncross
Great for point-and-shoot, never-to-be-edited but practically useless for any serious editing etc. -
Originally Posted by stantheman1976
Originally Posted by stantheman1976
Again, I don't want to hassle with running the computer transfer/encoding in real time unless I have to. I already have a Hi8 that works like that. I just want to download the movie and get on with editing it.
Originally Posted by stantheman1976
Thanks for your answers! -
Xeoncross,
I don't have any experience with an HDD camcorder, so I'm not going to mention it. My first camcorder was a DVD Hitachi. I had it for several months and wasn't very happy to edit. Most of the software at that time didn't support a .VRO [if I got it right] format. I sold that one to a friend and bought a Canon GL2. Two years later, I bought an XL2 to couple with the GL2. I am very happy with my two cams. Tape or DV format is very reliable and easy to edit. If you plan to use Vegas or Premiere, tape is a way to go and please make sure you stick with one brand of tape. Most pros don't recommend mixing brands together because each manufacturer use different chemical to make their tapes. That could cause a severe damage to your camcorder heads. So, pick one brand and stick with it. I use Maxell from Sam's club and never have any issue. Down the road, if you have more budget, you can buy a hard drive that can attach to your camcorder. So in stead of using tapes, now you use a hard drive that can capture 4 - 6 hours of video from your MiniDV cam. Just detach the hard drive from your camcorder and attach it to the firewire port and you can edit the footage from that drive. Of course, it doesn't come cheap. The hard drive alone can cost from $1,100 - $1,700.
I don't have any recommendation to any camcorder around $500. I can only recommend a tape type camcorder like MiniDV. Don't forget, a good tripod makes a big difference in quality. Lighting also plays a big role. Some experts said sound is number one priority and number two is video. A good sound can overcome poor video, but good video can never overcome poor sound. Take it for what it's worth.
vcdlover -
Originally Posted by Xeoncross
DV format (MiniDV tape) gives the highest quality. DV format is 25Mb/s + PCM uncompressed audio and is transferred to the computer at 1x speed over IEEE-1394 (aka Firewire) to a DV-AVI file.
Hard Disk camcorders record to much lower bit rate MPeg2 and can transfer a "FILE" over USB2. You give up quality for FILE convenience. Editing MPeg2 beyond simple cuts will lower quality further.
To get both quality and FILE you need to spend about $6000 for a camcorder (e.g. Panasonic HVX-200) or go for MPeg4 which is even more difficult to edit with quality.Recommends: Kiva.org - Loans that change lives.
http://www.kiva.org/about -
Originally Posted by Xeoncross
You need to decide between quality and FILE transfer over USB2. You can't have both without spending more. The cheapest way would use an external hard drive recorder for DV format storage. See Firestore FS4 for about $699.
http://www.videoguys.com/FireStore.htmlRecommends: Kiva.org - Loans that change lives.
http://www.kiva.org/about -
Originally Posted by edDV
Do you start the camcorder and then run a program (like Vegas) that encodes the firewire signal coming in? (like a TV Tuner would do?)Originally Posted by edDV
All-in-all, I guess that I will just have to find a HDD camcorder I can try to see if the quality really is as bad as everyone says it is - Because I have a hunch that it isn't any worse than Hi8 - and I am fine with Hi8.
Again, I want the file in a ready-to-edit format without all the headache of encoding/converting. DVD is out of the question because it is NOT a ready to edit format - just like a tape it would need to be re-coded before you could work with it.
Anyone have any movies I can see of MiniDV? :P -
"what does the term "transfer" means for MiniDV?" It means you play your captured tape from your cam thru the firewire port. In Vegas, you choose File>Capture video and you choose DV. Then select storage. The captured files are called .DV or .AVI which are raw files. One hour of video should take about 12.5 gig of hard drive space. I may not explain it clearly and please pardon me because I'm at work here. Not much time to type.
If you compare like $500 HDD cam and $500 MiniDV, the quality may not be different if you play them both on the same TV via your cam, but .DV files from MiniDV are much easier to work with.
vcdlover -
Originally Posted by Xeoncross
Now explain which words in that sentence aren't clear.
Editing MPeg2 REQUIRES a decode to base video and then a encode back to MPeg2. This is lossy. Simple cuts can be made without loss but on half second I frames. DV format would need an encode to MPeg2 for DVD only which is much less lossy.
If you want to see MiniDV quality watch most any cable network reality or news show. Of course they use $20,000 DV camcorders not $250 ones but the recording format is the same for video.
Be specific when you say you want "quality". Obviously you care about your a wallet over quality and editing.Recommends: Kiva.org - Loans that change lives.
http://www.kiva.org/about -
Well, I've just finished rebuilding an avi that was accidently on my HDD when it failed last year...
Fortunately, my source is all tape -
In a nutshell you can't have what you are asking for at the price you can afford, that's what everyone is more-or-less trying to tell you. The output from the affordable HDD camcorder can be copied immediately and quickly to your computer, just as a big "file", but there will be compression artifacts and possibly limitations on how much editing flexibility you'll have. If you are shooting "movies" from the hip, and really just grooving on playing around with it as a hobby, then yes this is the way to go for you if you prize convenience above all else.
HOWEVER: if this is personal family stuff, or you have any intention of watching what you shoot again five years from now, or ever want to make a fuss of showing it to other people with discriminating eyeballs- suck it up and tolerate the "inconvenience" of a standard MiniDV camcorder. The image quality will be better, the file format is more flexible, and you will always have the safety of the tape for a backup. The MiniDV file format is already in editable format once you get it transferred to your PC, if that is the crux of your question? The reason why the transfer has to be real time is mechanical limitation: MiniDV tape camcorders are not capable of faster file transfer, real time is as fast as they can move the tape and stream data to your computer. Firewire is a direct dataline into your PC drive, there is no need to go thru your tuner card to do an analog/digital conversion. In this setup, when we say "transfer", we mean moving the raw file from the camcorder into your PC, we are not talking about conversion of any kind if that was your concern.
If you could afford one of the pricier alternatives suggested by others above, you would have your ideal camcorder: one that records in the same file format as a MiniDV tape-based unit but laying that format down on a hard disk instead of tape so that the file transfer can be many, many times faster than real time. That's your holy grail. -
Originally Posted by vcdlover
So MiniDV doesn't have to be encoded quit the same way as a regular tape would need to be - it has it's own file type ".DV". So what programs support the creation and editing of DV/AVI files?
Also, with a TV Tuner capture there was a LOT of quality loss as the feeble connection would skip (like movies on old tapes), choke, and weaken randomly while recording the video to the hard drive. Mostly because I think that trying to go through a cam, out through s-video cables, into a tuner, converted into a stream for a program save to the HD was just too many variables. I know my PC was fast enough.
So is a Firewire more solid? Is there any sound/image distortion or when you try to get the cam to play back the movie though the firewire to the PC?
If I just new there was a lossless, easy way to insure my videos would make it to the PC IN GOOD QUALITY I might for-go the HDD and just suffer through ( ) the 1x MiniDV recording onto the PC.
Again, the whole goal is I just want an easy way to get a video file onto my PC. -
Originally Posted by Xeoncross
You can think of this as copying a file, it really is not much different. -
Yes, that is what I said above - it is just that last sentence was really part of the next paragraph and so it says the opposite of the first sentence. ;P
Anyway, I think maybe I will go for MiniDV - I have been reading all day and it sounds like a winner. Could someone answer my last question though? -
Originally Posted by Xeoncross
DV format has DCT compression but only within a frame. This is more like "fine" on a digital camera rather than "raw". "Raw" 4:1:1 digital video would generate 70GB files per hour. Do you really want "raw"?
MPeg2 as you know only records one frame every 15 frame GOP (group of pictures) and fills the in between frames with change data. MPeg4 uses longer GOPs. This is why MPeg is more difficult to edit and suffers decompression loss. DV records all frames and is easy to edit.
DV format can be edited in a host of consumer or pro editing programs starting with Windows Movie Maker and up from there.
IF DVD is your destination, the edited DV data or decompressed/edited MPeg2 data need to be encoded to DVD MPeg2 and authored.
Originally Posted by Xeoncross
You are describing analog capture which is different from DV stream capture. DV stream capture is lossless but is not a file transfer.
Cheap MPeg2 consumer hard drive camcorders are able to transfer faster than 1x because they record to highly compressed files in the camcorder. If you don't edit, these can be authored directly to a DVD. If you do edit the decompression loss issues become important.Recommends: Kiva.org - Loans that change lives.
http://www.kiva.org/about -
Originally Posted by Xeoncross
I'll give you an example of the total time to finish one hour of a video on a MiniDV tape. First, you need to have the right tools to do your job and I'm assuming you have those tools ready. It takes one hour to transfer your footage from the tape to the PC via firewire port. Only firewire port will work with MiniDV, nothing else. If you use Vegas to capture the footage, it has an option to capture in one whole file or it can split out each file when you pause/start your cam, or it's called Scene Detection. You can have hundreds of files in this case and you should do it this way because it much easier to delete the bad scenes. It'll take at least another hour to encode or render and at least another hour to author your final DVD, and another 10 minutes to burn your video. And of course, the time to edit is up to you. You can take an hour to edit or weeks or months to finish your editing. You now add those hours together and let see how much time it takes to finish a one hour video. It's not that easy to accomplish something like this, but it's not hard to do once you find the right path. It takes time to learn and spend money to get the right equipment.
Like I said before, the camcorder is just part of the video. You need a good tripod, good mic, good lighting, good angle, good objects, good composing and many more. This is one of the most important, the person behind the camera.
vcdlover -
Originally Posted by Xeoncross
Transferring MiniDV is not nearly as complicated or troublesome as you may believe it to be. IEEE-1394, a.k.a. "Firewire", is as easy to use as USB. Your computer will recognize your camera when you plug it in to your PC and should ask you what you want to do. Any editing program can transfer the footage to your hard drive. Windows Movie Maker or WinDV are free. All you have to do is make sure you choose DV-AVI as your format you want it transferred in. The transfer is real time which means if you record 1 hour of footage it takes 1 hour to transfer it. I believe there are expensive, high-end devices that can transfer faster than real time but they are only an option if you have a ton of money to spend.
So, MiniDV vs. HDD cameras:
MiniDV pros:
High quality
Long life
Easy to edit footage
MiniDV cons:
Transfer is real time
HDD pros:
Good for point and shoot
Transfer is faster than real time
HDD cons:
Footage is highly compressed and difficult to make changes to
Since there is not long term physical format for storage, i.e. tapes, footage can be lost more easily and is less likely to survive over time.
Does any of this help? -
As others are indicating, you must not think of the MiniDV format as a file. Try to think of it this way:
When the camcorder is recording, it takes a picture 30 times a second (in the US) and also records the audio from the microphone. These get recorded onto the magnetic tape, just like with audio cassettes and VHS tapes except that the audio and video are converted to digital signals first. Each video frame is converted to a digital image very similar to a JPEG image. The audio is converted to a digital signal very similar to CD audio.
The tape merely contains a continuous stream of 'JPEG' images and 'CD' audio. Just like audio tapes or VHS tapes aren't files, neither are MiniDV recordings. An important feature is that you can go to any point on the tape and start reading the audio and video.
When playing the tape, the camcorder takes that digital information and on a bit-for-bit basis sends it to the FireWire port whether or not anything is interested in it.
If a PC is connected via FireWire, it can copy the data. It can't tell the camcorder when to send the data though. It's like television - you can record the program but you can't tell the transmitter to start and stop at your whim! When the PC gets the information, it has to do something with it. One thing is to simply play the video and audio live. Alternatively, to record it, it writes it to a file. It can be written simply bit-for-bit which is the raw .dv format or wrapped up in a special type of file such as an .AVI file. Either way, the DV data are EXACTLY the same as on the tape. No conversion is required. All that is required is a program that understands how to get the DV data out of the file and, if needed, how to convert the DV data to meaningful audio and video. Just about every video-related program can do both because Windows provides all the bits need.
A note about the HDD option - although it may be considered a file, you still have to get it into the PC. That process is similar to the FireWire one and is not instant. HDD camcorders really don't offer much advantage over DVD camcorders in terms of video quality and ease of editing. -
Thanks JohnnyMalaria, stantheman1976, orsetto, and vcdlover & edDV. Because you guys were willing to write a small book on MiniDV - I now have my answers.
One thing that I wasn't expecting out of all of this was the fact that I learned that editing is actually affected by your file/data type. I never thought about the fact that a compressed mpeg might be harder for the PC to work with.
So, can anyone recommend a good MiniDV Camcorder? I am shooting for < $350 as that is what all the ones I have looked at are priced around.
Also, does having a light on the cam really make that much difference in dark areas? Oh, and last but not least - what about all the talk I hear that MiniDV is being faded out? -
The Panasonic PV-GS320 is about $375. Here's a link to the review on camcorderinfo.com with links at the top right to buy it.
http://www.camcorderinfo.com/content/Panasonic-PV-GS320-Camcorder-Review-32895/Handling-and-Use.htm
All the places linked there are reputable dealers and you won't have to worry about getting ripped off.
The PV-GS320 is a consumer level 3CCD MiniDV camera. I use 3 different PV-GS series cameras and I cannot speak highly enough about them.
As far as low light, they are going to suffer but so does ANY consumer grade camcorder. Some do slightly better than others but unless you're willing to drop big bucks on a more professional grade camera you can't really do anything except get external lighting.
Yes, a good camera light really does make a big difference. Even a fairly small one line I have that is 40 watts makes a difference.
MiniDV cameras are being phased out of production sadly. It will still be a while before they're stopped altogether and you'll likely be able to buy tapes for years. Look at 8mm and VHS-C. They haven't been produced for quite a while but you can still buy tapes at Wal Mart. -
[quote="Xeoncross"]
Originally Posted by JohnnyMalaria -
[quote="z0diac"]
Originally Posted by Xeoncross
vcdlover -
After reading MiniDV I found that they said that the Sony DCR-DVD96, the Panasonic PV-GS250, and the Canon Elura 100 were the way to go.
The Panasonic PV-GS320 didn't score as well. -
I don't think the GS250 is in production anymore. The GS320 is still being made and readily available. The main drawback to the 320 is not having a mic input. I wish the GS300 was still available. Panasonic is really weird about doing great one year and not so well the next.
The 320 has the advantage of having 3 CCD compared to the single CCD in the others you listed. For that fact alone it's better IMO. -
I came in here last year because I was in a similar situation, I needed to replace my JVC VHS-C camcoorder. After A LOT of research and reading a lot of reviews, I bought the Panasonic PV-GS320 and could not be happier. It has far exceeded my expectations.
Be aware that they slice and dice these camcorders to reveal every little flaw, but in real world use, they are more than satisfactory. To give you an idea, I purchased the Canon Elura at the same time just in case I wasn't satisfied with the Panasonic. The Canon is still in the sealed box.
The Canon has the external mic input and I may have a need for that some day and I'll crack it open, otherwise, I am an extremely happy owner.
My thanks go to edDV and a few others who helped me choose the format. Buy it somewhere that you can return it. I seriously doubt that is going to happen. You're not going to get poorer lighting conditions than a nightclub and I just shot a concert in one and was very pleased and surprised by the results. -
The Panasonic will suffer in extremely low light but so will every single consumer camcorder. IMO the GS320 gives the most "bang for the buck" as they say.
-
Ok, well I have some questions about the GS320.
First it only has Firewire Output, is that a problem?
Second, the shutter speed is only:
In Tape Mode: 1/50 - 1/8000 sec.
In Card Mode: 1/25 - 1/2000 sec.
Isn't DVD supposed to be 60fs?
and third pricegrabber says that the "Video Capture Format: [is] MJPEG"...?
However, the ratings for it is a strong 200+.
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