Converting VHS to DVD: Higher Quality Recordings

[Deter]

Hi all,

I really need some help on this project. I have 20 years worth of TV golf broadcasts on Beta and VHS; I am trying to convert them to DVD. My concern is quality. Right now when I copy them, I get square blocks running on the TV screen. The reason for this I am not sure, it may have to do with analog to digital conversion.

Currently I have a Samsung HD TV, with a Panasonic DMR-EZ27 DVD HD Upconvert Recorder, running to the TV with an HDMI cable and Fiber Optics to the receiver.

Over the last year, I was able to record the HD Broadcast to my DVD recorder; the quality came out amazing. Now I understand the actual recording are not in HD, but the picture is way better than digital cable.

Now I have no idea if it is even possible to take my VHS recording and clean them up to this level. I would be interested if there was a way. Even if I have to purchase a $20,000 machine.

Right now, the problem I am getting is when I record the VHS, I get up close to the screen to see the actual pixels and I do see that it is recording in vertical and horizontal blocks. These blocks are very small, about ½ a centimeter but I for sure don’t want them. It is not my recording device, I have tried other machines, nor is it the disks I am using to record.

My goal is to clean up the picture the best I can; I have even tried a double record. VHS to DVD, than DVD to DVD. This has helped a little but I can still see the blocks on the screen. (From Viewing distance one can't see the blocks)

This is always weird, since the videos span 20 years, the true analog recording seem to play better on my TV, than the Digital broadcasts which were recorded to Analog tape.

I guess that is a start, please help out if you can, I can post more information if needed.

CHRIS

[Captain Satellite]

You need to check out lordsmurf's site here.

[orsetto]

There is a point of diminishing returns and "gotchas" once you start using a flat screen "HDTV" plasma or LCD panel as your primary display. They're high-tech, and they look stunning with commercial media or good digital broadcasts, but they are utterly unforgiving to standard-definition sources (and consumer VHS/Beta falls on the low end of standard def in the new world order of single-resolution digital displays). No matter how good your recording equipment, you will probably not be able to make VHS transfers that rival commercially pressed DVDs or the recordings you make direct from a good ATSC tuner. "Old-fashioned" CRT TV displays conceal a lot of digital noise, flat screen wall displays exaggerate all the flaws and blocks because they are not optimized to show this type of material to good advantage.

Definitely check out LordSmurfs site as suggested above- he's been doing this for years and shares all he knows about getting the best from a tape transfer. Don't get me wrong: you can make quite good transfers from tape, as LS will attest. I've even managed some subtle improvements in a few of my transfers that make them better than the tape source in a few respects. I'm just suggesting your particular expectations as described in your post might be a bit unrealistic. It is pretty much impossible to stand inches away from an LCD or plasma display and not see any blocks in a standard-def recording. The best you can hope for is good enough quality at normal viewing distances, good enough to make you stop looking for flaws and just enjoy the program you transferred.

I'm extremely picky myself and have been forced to lower my expectations considerably when using a flat panel to view my tape transfers. Sometimes its worth the tradeoff to get the impact of a large screen, but more often than not I prefer to watch those transfers on my "old-skool" 27" Sony Wega CRT tv. On the flip side, there may still be hope: I think LordSmurf commented recently he had found a big LCD he could live with that can be adjusted to show standard-def quite well, you may want to search his recent posts for more info. Good luck!

[Deter]

I checked out that guys website, 1st thing I think is to purchase an SVHS VCR with a Built-in digital time base corrector. Or do I need to purchase a SVHS VCR and a side unit time base corrector. He says to get a JVC 9800 and up, I can't seem to find them anywhere, but in my research I found a bunch of PANASONIC 1980, now they claim this to be the best model around I have no idea. Does anyone have any input on what to purchase?

(I am not doing any transfers via the computer, tried it a few times, and didn't like the results)

On the LCD, these recording actually look pretty good, I just know there is a way to get these videos transferred in better quality. Yes I am picky about those blocks....

Please understand I started this last year and had massive problems with Duel Layers disks that I was recording with an LG recorder. I would record a program, and bam it would get destroyed. Now viewing some of the ones that worked, once it gets to the 2nd layer of the disk it freezes. Many of the LG recorded disks don't work on any of my DVD players. Anyway, what I am trying to say is, before I start this massive recording again, I just want to get it moving in the correct direction so I don't have to re-record everything again.

Last off, what is the best betamax machine around?

[orsetto]

The additional info you just gave explains a lot: poor-quality DL-media burns made on an off-spec LG recorder are definitely going to look pretty bad, much worse than what you'd get using good single-layer media on a more mainstream Pioneer, Phillips, Toshiba or Panasonic DVD recorder.

Your new questions re recommended current hardware have actually been discussed at length in several threads over the last few weeks. To recap briefly, the classic SVHS with TBC recorders recommended by forum members are all long since discontinued and fetch ridiculous prices used on eBay, but these models can be risky as expensive second hand items. For the money people are asking for old used units, you should instead opt for the recently discontinued Mitsubishi or JVC "D-VHS" HDTV recorders. They have all the good noise reduction and TBC features of the classic SVHS decks but they are still available brand new for $300-400 if you look around a bit. Search for Mitsubishi model HS-HD2000U or JVC model SR-VD400US. Forget the Panasonic 1970 or 1980, they tend to be worn out used or insanely priced for leftover new stock, and if you're really picky the newer JVC and Mitsubishi units are better for your purposes anyway. Get a good DVD recorder with a hard drive- currently the only decent one available new in the USA is the Phillips model 3575, you'll find it at Wal*Mart or Best Buy or Circuit City for approx $289. Alternatively, many mint-in-box Pioneer units are available on eBay from Canadian stores with leftover stock, look for the excellent DVR-450 (2007 model) or DVR-540 (2006 model) which can be had for under $300 shipped to USA. I have bought 3 of these for myself and friends and they arrived practically brand new. For your golf tapes, it is highly unlikely you will need an external TBC unless the tapes are in really bad shape. I've transferred VHS recorded 25 years ago off rabbit ears, and they copied perfectly using the built-in TBC on my VCR. Finally, good Betamaxes are scarce now and fetching high prices used relative to second-hand VHS decks. The best compromise between price, performance and reliability is the Sony SL-HF300 Beta HiFi unit: you can't go wrong with it. Avoid the pricey SuperBeta decks unless you actually do have SuperBeta recordings to transfer.

For more detail check these Videohelp threads:

VCR with TBC (Restoration Forum)

Method of VHS Capture to DVD (Restoration Forum)

Betamax - horizontal black lines near white (example within) & other Qs (Restoration Forum)

Equipment advice needed for VHS to PC capture. (Capture Forum)

Recommendation Request: LG vs Pioneer vs Panasonic (DVD Recorders Forum)

[lordsmurf]

You need a VCR and a capture device (be it a capture card or a DVD recorder) that filter the signal, and remove tape flaws.

Panasonic DVD recorders ... and many other "name brand" DVD recorders .... simply aren't going to cut it. They do nothing.

Same for cheap VCRs. I don't care about the brand, it needs certain features. JVC offers high-end machines that are hard to beat, or even match, in terms of filtering abilities.

You also have TBCs (external, non-cleaning), proc amps, detailers, audio mixers, and a few other devices that can fix signal quality, strength and clarity.

Beyond hardware cleaning, there are some issues that can't be corrected in hardware, and require any number of software methods. Always do hardware first, then software to fix what the hardware couldn't do.

TBCs, external ones, are not needed for cleaning, but are often required for signal purification, as digital conversion devices are easy to confuse with impure quality. VHS is known for signal errors on the tapes. This is nothing visible mind you, on the tapes. Digital equipment will either go wonky or just refuse to capture/convert.

Most HDTV sets are really bad with non-HD material (not all that hot with HD either, for that matter). I recently purchased the newest of Sony's technology, an HDTV from the A3000 SXRD line, which has lots of filters, to not only prevent signal quality loss when viewing good material, but to further clean it up too. This is really needed for viewing SD on an HD panel. Few sets have anything like this whatsoever, and nobody has the system Sony does. The same tech is also on the newest XBR4 series LCDs.

If you're willing spend $20,000, budget is not an issue. We could get you off with far less than half of that, and that includes a new Sony HDTV (XBR4 LCD is about $5,000 for 52" and the SXRD is about $2000 for 55" or 60")

Your best bet for VHS is to buy a Toshiba XS series machine (XS34, XS35) or a JVC DR-M10 or JVC DR-M100. Or hell, get one of each, both a Toshiba and a JVC, best of both types of filtering.

Your biggest problem now is plain VCR, crappy recorder, and potentially a HDTV that doesn't help your signal stay good (or get better).

[Captain Satellite]

lordsmurf, Would you put both the Toshiba and the JVC models above the Philips 3575 that has been discussed recently?

Do you use your E80H for playback only?

[lordsmurf]

I've not had time to extensively test the Philip 3575 like I want to. I bought it for the QAM tuner, and to use it like a PVR. I need to take my extra VHS into that room and convert sometime. I started a review, but I seem to have mixed up my notes.

I gave the E80H to somebody in my family earlier this year, to be used as a PVR and player only. Nothing from it is kept, it's not good enough quality.

I doubt the Philips is better than the Toshiba or JVC, as those are some pretty high benchmarks. Is the chipset inside is LSI, it might come to close (or up to) the JVC for it's purification. There are no adjustments for cleaning (if it even cleans), so it's not a Toshiba replacement.

I'll be testing over the holidays, starting later this week.

[Captain Satellite]

Thanks for the reply. I'll be looking forward to your test results. While the Panasonic is a workhorse, the blocks and green tint are a major annoyance. I originally purchased it to back-up my Laser Disc collection and VHS tapes going back to '80, but decided to wait for something that would prove to be more accurate.

Lots of great info on your site. My tapes look as good as the day I recorded them, unfortunately, some of my discs have fallen prey to laser rot.

I can remember when the discs would be rotten right out of the sleeve. I believe it was the adhesive that gave way and allowed the surface to become oxidized.

I'll be looking for your report. Thank you.

[Deter]

capture device? what is that what types of models.....

I did pick up a Panasonic 180 for $80.00, so I hope that helps...

Now DVD recorder? What is wrong with the panasonic one I have it has an HD Upconvert, and I have not had any problems like I did with the LG. Now you are saying to get a (Toshiba and a JVC) you also say that I can't buy these in stores so where do I get it....

My TV is fine, the picture is great, I don't need another one for a while......

TBC ? what models, On the Panasonic I just got, it says it has one build in.

I am very thankful for your replies, at the same time I am a bit confused on what to do....

Also how do you remove those blocks in the screen...

[lordsmurf]

Panasonic DVD recorders have inferior chipsets and give off inferior quality. The luma is off-kilter (messes with color and contrast and tint shift) and the machine tends to create noisy video (lots of blocks and other noise). Panasonic is near the bottom of the list, in terms of visual/audio quality. The Panasonic is what is putting the blocks on screen.

JVC machines can be found on ecost.com (refurbished)
Toshiba can be found on ebay.com (used)

The Philips 3575 may be a candidate too, but it needs further testing.

You've also got to understand the bitrate vs resolution issues. For best quality, use XP 1-hour mode, or a machine that has a 3-hour mode with Half-D1 (and Panasonic is not one of these machines, the Toshiba and JVC are).

The term "TBC" is very loose, unfortunately, so lots of devices claim to have TBCs, when it's a bit of a stretch. DVD recorders claiming to have TBC's are really stretching what the term is supposed to mean.