audio stops way before end of converted movie and is out of sync

[jboyd]

hello,

having trouble converting a .avi file to DVD mpeg2enc for toasting for a dvd to play on a normal dvd player.

having dropped the .avi into ffmpegx and chosen DVD mpeg2enc in the pop up, i then chose Decode with mplayer under options as .avi files don't play in quicktime (i also chose 'set 3:2' and deselected the 'author as' check box)

this reulsted in a .mpv file, a .mpa file, and a muxed together .mpg file.

checking the .mpg file in vlc showed that the video was fine but the audio was very much out of sync and ended *far* sooner than the end of the movie, so there was many minutes of silence at the end, so i threw away the .mpg file.

the .mpv file seems fine. the .mpa file seems fine also (says the right time/length in quicktime player).

i tried dropping the .mpv file into toast which then asks is there a sound file which i then point it to the .mpa file which it seems to accept but not as is (like it usually does when i do this, going back to the earlier steps above, via quicktime rather than mplayer) -- it says "Preparing..." and starts off taking ages.

due to previous successes with .ac3 files i managed to make a .ac3 file from the original .avi via quicktime pro then ffmpegx and used this in toast with the .mpv file but again, "Preparing..."

(a) how can i get this movie into dvd format with the sound in sync?
(b) can i do it without reencoding the whole thing again?

ffmpegx says this about the movie i'm trying to convert:

AVI
mpeg4, yuv420p, 512x384
mp3, 48000 Hz, stereo, 112 kb/s

and via the info button:
VIDEO: [XVID] 512x384 12bpp 29.970 fps 1004.6 kbps (122.6 kbyte/s) audiocodec: framecopy (format=55 chans=2 rate=48000 bits=0 B/s=14992 sampe-0)

any ideas?

thanks.

[Case]

i also chose 'set 3:2'
VIDEO: [XVID] ... 29.970 fps ....

You didn't mention your target framerate, which can give bad sync when different from the source framerate. You should only set 3:2 pulldown on a 23.976 fps DVD encoding, not on 29.97 fps (nor 25 fps). And 23.976 fps doesn't seem appropriate here.

[jboyd]

thanks for the reply. right sorry didn't know that was important info. i've always let ffmpegx pick that for me and not paid much attention to it.

going through the same set up process again to find out what ffmpegx picks for this movie, it's: NTSC FILM which is i think what ffmpegx always picks, although i could be wrong.

the reason i set "set 3:2" is because of much long winded previous trouble a while ago trying to get toast to accept movie files from ffmpegx as is (avoiding toast's long "preparing..." stage), and it was ticking "set 3:2" which finally solved the problem, but maybe that was specific to the file in question but it certainly generally seems to have served me well, at least, having always checked "set 3:2" since, toast accepts converted files as are. but maybe in some cases it doesn't make any difference and it toast would have accepted file as is anyway? who knows.

to be honest i'm not even sure what "set 3:2" means. is it the screen size ratio? anyway, not ticking it for at least some (and possibly all) movies renders ffmpegx's output not acceptable as is by toast which adds a horific (especially on my *old* computer) amount of time to the whole process so it's really important for me to avoid that.

so my movie converting process (to be able to drop multiple movie files into toast's 'video' pane for making dvd for dvd player) is basically:
drop movie into ffmpegx
choose DVD mpeg2enc
under options choose "set 3:2", and detick "author as" and if it's a movie file which quicktime can't play choose "decode with mplayer" instead of quicktime.

generally this works but fails in a few ways, one of which obviously is the way i've described in this thread. the only other file which the same problem (or at least very similar: audio very out of sync and ending way before the end of the movie) was this file:

asf
msmpeg3, yuv420p, 640x480
wmav2, 44100 Hz, mono, 32 kb/s

now it could be not related even though the problem appeard (or more appropriately sounded) the same, but i now notice the yuv420p similarity. because that mentioned just above file had a .wmv extension i'd have used quicktime to convert not mplayer (because i've got something installed which allows quicktime to play .wmv files), so if both of these files did suffer from exactly the same problem, whether quicktime or mplayer is used makes no difference.

going back to your original suggestion, do you think not checking the "set 3:2" check box could help and still get files accepted by toast as are? for both of the described files, the .avi one and the .wmv (asf) one? the second mentioned file, the asf / wmv file, is much shorter so it'd be preferable to mess around to see what works with that one rather than the other (the other took about 2 and 1/2 days on my machine!).

thanks.

[Case]

to be honest i'm not even sure what "set 3:2" means. is it the screen size ratio? anyway, not ticking it for at least some (and possibly all) movies renders ffmpegx's output not acceptable as is by toast which adds a horific (especially on my *old* computer) amount of time to the whole process so it's really important for me to avoid that.

Setting a "3:2 pulldown" tells playback devices, such as DVD players, how to output 23.976 fps progressive MPEG-2 material to displays that expect a 29.97 fps interlaced signal. That's its purpose. It's also part of the DVD specification for NTSC Film (23.976 fps) material.
If you feed a 23.976 fps MPEG-2 file without 3:2 pulldown to Toast, then Toast will re-encode it to make it 29.97 fps. But if it has the pulldown, then Toast accepts it as compliant.

As your source AVI is 29.97 fps, it doesn't need a 3:2 pulldown, and adding one might have unwanted effects. Set ffmpegX target framerate to the same 29.97 fps in this case.
Without knowing the framerate of your WMV file, it's not possible to tell if a DVD conversion needs the 3:2 pulldown. You could open the WMV file in QuickTime Player, open the window Movie Inspector, to get its framerate ("fps").

[jboyd]

Setting a "3:2 pulldown" tells playback devices, such as DVD players, how to output 23.976 fps progressive MPEG-2 material to displays that expect a 29.97 fps interlaced signal. That's its purpose. It's also part of the DVD specification for NTSC Film (23.976 fps) material.
If you feed a 23.976 fps MPEG-2 file without 3:2 pulldown to Toast, then Toast will re-encode it to make it 29.97 fps. But if it has the pulldown, then Toast accepts it as compliant.

As your source AVI is 29.97 fps, it doesn't need a 3:2 pulldown, and adding one might have unwanted effects. Set ffmpegX target framerate to the same 29.97 fps in this case.

i see, thanks very much for explaining that. so there's no point in, and i shouldn't, choose "set 3:2" if and when the framerate is already exactly 29.97 which this avi in question is. and you think there's a possibility, or are pretty sure, that not choosing "set 3:2" will solve the audio out of sync problem with this particular avi ? that is also having chosen "NTSC (29.97)" in the framerate under the Video tab, instead of "NTSC FILM (29.976)" which is what was used the first time?

Without knowing the framerate of your WMV file, it's not possible to tell if a DVD conversion needs the 3:2 pulldown. You could open the WMV file in QuickTime Player, open the window Movie Inspector, to get its framerate ("fps").

i see. it's 29.90 according to quicktime player. the format bit from the wmv in question as stated by quicktime player:
Windows Media Audio 9 Standard, Mono, 44.100 kHz
Microsoft MPEG-4 V3, 640 x 480, Millions

so when i attempted to convert that movie for dvd i chose DVD mpeg2enc, then "set 3:2" in options and left it as quicktime.

so would that need "set 3:2" setting for it? no, i'd guess because it's not 29.976?

what logic should i use to work out whether "set 3:2" should be applied or not? is it simply:

if framerate of source movie is 23.976 tick "set 3:2"
else don't tick "set 3:2"

or is it:

if framerate of source movie is 23.97 don't tick "set 3:2"
else tick "set 3:2"


blimey, this movie conversion isn't half a mine field
thanks very much.

[Case]

and you think there's a possibility, or are pretty sure, that not choosing "set 3:2" will solve the audio out of sync problem with this particular avi ? that is also having chosen "NTSC (29.97)" in the framerate under the Video tab, instead of "NTSC FILM (29.976)" which is what was used the first time?

It is my expectation that this solves it.

Windows Media Audio 9 Standard, Mono, 44.100 kHz
Microsoft MPEG-4 V3, 640 x 480, Millions
29.90 fps

DVD needs to be either 23.976 fps, 25 fps or 29.97 fps. So, when your source file is none of those, but 29.90 fps, then you HAVE TO make a conversion where the target framerate is different from the source framerate. As 29.90 is pretty close to 29.97, set your target framerate to "NTSC (29.97)".
With your output mpg at 29.97 fps, it does not need the 3:2 pulldown.

If the framerate of your TARGET MPEG-2 movie is 23.976 fps,
then tick "Set 3:2"
else don't tick "Set 3:2".

[jboyd]

It is my expectation that this solves it.

right, excellent, just wasn't sure if you were talking just about the toast accepting as is problem or the audio out of sync problem as well. great, thanks.

DVD needs to be either 23.976 fps, 25 fps or 29.97 fps. So, when your source file is none of those, but 29.90 fps, then you HAVE TO make a conversion where the target framerate is different from the source framerate. As 29.90 is pretty close to 29.97, set your target framerate to "NTSC (29.97)".
With your output mpg at 29.97 fps, it does not need the 3:2 pulldown.

i see, thanks. am i right in that if there are multiple movie being put onto a dvd they have to be all the same framerate, all 29.97, or all 29.976 -- no mixing of the two? i know that's the case with trying to mix ntsc and pal.

If the framerate of your TARGET MPEG-2 movie is 23.976 fps,
then tick "Set 3:2"
else don't tick "Set 3:2".

right. thanks v. much

[Case]

am i right in that if there are multiple movie being put onto a dvd they have to be all the same framerate, all 29.97, or all 29.976 -- no mixing of the two? i know that's the case with trying to mix ntsc and pal.

You may mix 29.97 fps and 23.976 fps (with pulldown) on the same disc. It happens quite a bit on commercial DVDs, when the main feature is NTSC Film (23.976 fps) and an extra (e.g. "behind the scenes") is NTSC (29.97 fps).
[Some DVD players are even forgiving on mixing pal and ntsc, although it is out-of-spec.]

[jboyd]

am i right in that if there are multiple movie being put onto a dvd they have to be all the same framerate, all 29.97, or all 29.976 -- no mixing of the two? i know that's the case with trying to mix ntsc and pal.

You may mix 29.97 fps and 23.976 fps (with pulldown) on the same disc. It happens quite a bit on commercial DVDs, when the main feature is NTSC Film (23.976 fps) and an extra (e.g. "behind the scenes") is NTSC (29.97 fps).
[Some DVD players are even forgiving on mixing pal and ntsc, although it is out-of-spec.]

that's very good to know. i just noticed i've been getting "29.97, 29.976" wrong, it's actually 29.97, or 23.976. btw, toast 6 doesn't allow mixing of pal and ntsc -- it enforces one or the other per disk.

i'll report on success or not on conversion of avi when it's done.

thanks very much.

[jboyd]

that worked -- the large avi. so thanks very much for the info Case.

is it best then in general to choose NTSC or NTSC MOVIE or PAL, when converting for a DVD player DVD, based on which one has the closest framerate to the source movie? obviously if the source movie is the same as one of those then i can imagine choosing that format is a good idea, but if the source movie is not 29.97 fps or 23.976 fps or 25 fps it seems from all the above it's better to choose the closest? e.g. if the source movie is 25.6 say, then PAL would be the best choice? is it just a case of, if choosing whichever one happens not to work, then if there's a closer fps option then that one just has more chance of working?

should i always, if i want to give it the best chance of working well and ok first time, choose the closest target framerate to the source movie's framerate?

thanks very much.

[Case]

If your source framerate is different from your target framerate, then the encoder will have to remove or duplicate frames to get an output file of the same runtime. Lesser manipulation (close fps value) will result in smoother video, compared to framerates that are 'further' away.
Separate from that is possible audiosync issues, which are more likely to happen with framerate conversions. The Decode with Quicktime option has solved that for me on several occasions.

[jboyd]

right, excellent, thanks very much.