Is there a 3CCD Digital 8 camcorder?

[Undead Sega]

I was wondering and been doing some small research around the net and as well ehre and came to my mind and havent found any 3CCD Digital 8 camcorder, either by sony or Hitachi.

i was hoping if anyone here can help me on this if there is such a thing, cause i do find it incredibly weird that even Sony didnt create a 3CCD camcorder for their line of Digital 8 camcorders.

i would appreciate it if anyone here can correct me me on this. and also to help point me to the right direction, if not, why havent they done so?

[thecoalman]

I don't know if they make them but...

if not, why havent they done so?

Because mini-dv is the standard, digital 8 was just a intermediate format. Probabky introduced to save money on retooling production lines etc. Why not just get a 3ccd mini-DV?

[JohnnyMalaria]

I doubt it very, very much.

Digital 8 is (was?) a lowish-end consumer format that has the primary advantage (and reason for existence) of playing existing analog Video 8 and Hi8 tapes).

3CCD MiniDV camcorders are targeted at the prosumer/professional market. Such users will not have a need for Video 8/Hi8 compatibility in the same equipment. If conversion of such tapes is required, they will either use a dedicated analog-to-DV converter or just buy a Digital 8 camcorder to do it.

The reason for not doing it: there's no real market for it and to do so would eat into their own prosumer market.

[Undead Sega]

well i really wouldnt concern digital 8 as an obselete thing, because without a doubt, as much as i dont like Sony, Digital 8 does have its advantages. Fact that Digital 8 is technically the same as MiniDV, and it is slightly cheaper as well, also some of the consumer camcorders are of better built than MiniDVs.

another reason is that it makes an almost perfect upgrade to those who have used 8mm tapes in the past (like myself) and a camcorder like the trv7/840 (which i am hopelessly trying to get and win auctions on ebay from Germany) that can play back and has an ADC makes it almost a godsend.

thus wondering if there is a 3CCD Digital 8 camcorder. Surely there must ber with those understandings.

[Undead Sega]

anyone may i ask?

[JohnnyMalaria]

If someone has a catalog of Video 8/Hi8 tapes and already has a Digital 8 camcorder (which are very inexpensive secondhand), it makes no sense to buy another Digital 8 camcorder with 3CCD etc if such a thing exists.

The existing Digital 8 camcorder would still be valuable for playing/capturing Video 8/Hi8 tapes etc.

The cost of the optics/electronics for the 3CCD part of a 3CCD camcorder would be greater than the whole existing Digital 8 camcorder. (3CCD sensors are invariably paired with much higher quality optics.)

Depending on the size of the existing Hi8 catalog, it would be prudent to do a direct transfer from the Digital 8 camcorder to a MiniDV camcorder. MiniDV tapes are much more robust than Digital 8 (the specifications are much tighter).

thecoalman makes an excellent point about retooling etc. All Sony needed to do was add some extra circuits (highly integrated) to do the DV side of things (taken from their MiniDV line) and add a FireWire port.

FWIW, I'm on the look out for a cheap Digital 8 camcorder to transfer my rather old (>10 yrs) catalog.

[Undead Sega]

i understand that greatly, but i know as well that 3CCD is such a superior thing, and i tend to have a Digital 8 camcorder that can do and have alot of things, including 3CCD, which im sure they must have made one, thus why i am asking around here.

and still, the specs are technically the same, the MiniDV format one frame is recorded onto 10.0 tracks, with the Digital8 format one frame's worth of information is recorded vertically onto 25 tracks.

[JohnnyMalaria]

MiniDV tape is far more robust - just like Video 8/Hi8/Digital 8 is far more robust than VHS.

MiniDV tape is exactly the same as used in full size DV tapes and DVCAM tapes. It is designed to stand up to the very stressful environment of repeated shuttling/winding in a broadcast environment.

[Undead Sega]

all im hearing is just it being robust, which i really dont mind, but thats not exactly a great advantage over Digital8, they are both made at high quality standards. either way, who says i dont take care of my equipement? or that goes to everyone infact.

bottom line, they are just the same but with different body builts. not to drift off, i would like to know if they have made any 3CCD Digital 8 camcorders? a prosumer camcorder infact would be all well.

[JohnnyMalaria]

I can't absolutely prove that such a thing was never made but I have scoured the web to come up with something - but to no avail.

I'd say the likelihood of such a device ever having existing is virtually zero.

(The reason I mention the tape quality is because 3CCD = professional = robust and reliable = needs robust tape. The Digital 8 format is designed for less aggressive consumer use.)

[Undead Sega]

well may i ask, have u found somethnig yet, cause according to wiki on D8, they mentioned to have made prosumer camcorders when they first early that time when they released Digital 8.

technically, im looking for models as well. anyone may i ask.

also, im going to check their Sony Style site as well. Literally, D8 can cope, i still even have my old Video/Hi8 tapes from years, and whose to say D8 isnt robust? if Hi8 can cope, im sure D8 can.

[JohnnyMalaria]

When the D8 format first came out in 1999, one of Sony's top-of-line models was the DCR-TRV510:

http://www.videomaker.com/article/7515/

It retailed at $1299. It's a single CCD. The cost of 3CCD camcorders at that time was typically two to three times as much.

The first generation D8 models are generally regarded as the most rugged.

I'd get a list of all Sony's consumer/prosumer camcorders since 1999 and look up the specs on each. Generally, DCR-xxx.

[Undead Sega]

damn, that much for a single CCD camcorder, glad that im am trying to get a DCr TRV7/840E camcorder.

but i have done experiments between CCDs, and because of the whole digital thing, having one or a cheap CCD really doesnt work much for me. where as, u can be very satified with a 3CCD (which in some cases can help for upscaling).

still on the huntdown yourself may i ask?

[JohnnyMalaria]

No, I'm just looking for any old D8 to play/convert my analog tapes. They are Video 8 NTSC. I have a Hi8 PAL camcorder that can play them and the quality is much better than from the original NTSC camcorder. Problem is that the output from the PAL unit is NTSC4.43 (i.e., for PAL TVs).

A D8 camcorder or a Hi8 camcorder will do the job.

I think someone I know has one, so that may do the trick.

[Undead Sega]

ahh okay.

im myself is now looking for a prosumer Digital 8 camcorder, tends to be very difficult to find. can anyone here help me with this? or shall i start a new thread saying 'Such hting as a prosumer Digital 8 camcorder?'

[JohnnyMalaria]

You could change the subject of this thread.

Also, you could contact Sony and ask if they ever made such a thing.

As of now nearly 140 people have viewed this thread (a lot for one day). The lack of a positive reply suggests it doesn't exist.

[Marvingj]

There is no such animal, the best I've seen is the Sony DCR-TRV840 it has 1/4 ccd

[turk690]

Sony DOESN'T make 3CCD camcorders for that segment of the market that it considers "consumer low end". It has always been like that, and the Digital 8 format is no exception. Even now, with its existing DV-format camcorders for that segment (DCR-HC96, HC48, HC38), none of them are 3CCD. Even the existing high-def HDV formats in that segment (like the HC5 & HC7) are sweetly single CCD. If you want 3CCD, or for that matter 3CMOS, Sony wants you to pony up to the next higher stratum that currently includes such models as the HDR-FX7. This strategy is different from, say, Panasonic, or even JVC, who offer 3CCD camcorders in that segment.
Manufacturers emphasize different philosophies in the approaches to their products. If you can make anything out of it, it seems that Sony thinks in that segment people who are likely to buy these camcorders are less likely to be dazzled by color purity (an oft-mentioned 3CCD camcorder attribute) than by high sensitivity (low picture noise). Anyway, as some reviews have pointed out, color saturation is ratcheted up in the camcorder to make the resulting video eye-catching (which would have long ago obliterated any subtlety wrought by any 3CCD structure) to the casual user.
to Undead Sega, I'm with you on Sony's yawning approach to D8, which is ironic considering they invented and pushed the format. Since day one, they have never taken it seriously as a video acquisition tool. Forget 3CCD first; NO D8 camcorder has such basics as white balance, for example. While they made Carl Zeiss lens standard on DV camcorders, they never included it in any D8 model. I initially thought the message here is: the main D8 aim is as a platform to playback (and convert to DV) those existing recorded 8mm tapes; forget the camera portion. But eventually, Sony also slowly took out the ability to play back analogue 8mm tapes. If that isn't amazing, tell me what is. The last model I know that does this is the DCR-TRV480. The same thing could be happening now with DV, if the fact that the top-of-the-line in this segment DCR-HC96 has been THE top-of-the-line for two years now is anything to go by. Then one will be forced to get a wretched DVD camcorder. But that's another story.

[zoobie]

exactly

[edDV]

Sony never made a 3CCD D8 or even a top qualiity 1CCD/optics version.

Think of a camcorder as two devices screwed together to make one .. A CAMera and a reCORDER.

It is true that general signal performance of D8 and MiniDV as a corder are near identical. Both record DV format to magnetic tape. D8 uses enhanced Hi8 transports and Hi8 tape at double record speed to handle the 25Mb/s+audio bitrate. MiniDV uses a smaller and more dense tape formulation to get the same result.

The "CAM" section dominates the cost of the camcorder. Sony only offered the lowest end CAM sections in this D8 format in order to protect the higher end consumer and prosumer pricing strategies. They saw D8 as a transition format for Hi8 and 8mm users making it easier for former customers to step up to DV, I-Link and digital processing features. Those in the know quickly figured out these make cheap excellent digital video recorders for older higher end analog 3CCD prosumer camcorders that used Hi8, SVHS-C or BetacamSP tape and had S-Video outputs. The DV recording quality was superior to those formats*.

Current model D8 camcorders have been gutted of the key features that made the format useful.

* ability to play and convert older Hi8 and 8mm tapes directly to DV over IEEE-1394.
* ability to accept analog S-Video with pass through conversion to DV over IEEE-1394.

You must search out older models with those features or buy the GV-D200 or GV-D800 to get those features now.


*Using an older model analog pro camcorder with a D8 or MiniDV recorder gets very good quality results. The older camcorders are cheap used but are bulky and expensive to repair. But they are high quality 3CCD cameras with lenses that alone cost more than $5000. Most are 4:3 format. 16:9 capable models are still in high demand by the pros which keeps used prices higher.

[Undead Sega]

i would have to admit, after some reading and initial research, the 'highest-end' that Sony has made for the D8 was the DCR-TRV7/840 camcorders, which used a 1/4.7'' CCD and the pixel count is probably one of the largest. also it has gained alot of good reviews and the built of it looks quite solid. as much as i hate sony, i will personally only buy camera products of them as they do actually make very good ones. the rest not really. they are arrogant idiots, and with this (Digital 8), they pushed and pushed, and not even supporting their own format properly, with very expensive equipment for it, and not properly manufactering true prosumer cams.

i appreciate as well that some people are with me on this, and i will stick to getting a DCR TRV7/840 camcorder, in which, i will use a couple of filters to obtain a true high quality look than what many consumer MiniDV cam can do.

also, they are great with adding the ADC, a very unique feature. only problem do have with that camcorder is the fact the tape loading is at the bottom and not the top.

it only questions that 'Why fix it when it ain't broke?'

[edDV]

Depends what needs fixing.

My first DV camcorder was the original D8 DCR-TRV103 ($799 street 1999) that I bought to bridge my Hi8 library into Premiere DV format projects. I added a Canopus ADVC-100 for added flexibility. For shooting I mostly used rented/borrowed Sony VX-1000/2000 MiniDV models and then bough a Sony PD-150. I'm planning to buy a Sony GV-D200 for long term D8/Hi8/8mm support.

[Undead Sega]

i see then, very interesting.

well, as i mentioned before, the closest D8 camcorder that would come to specs of a prosumer (even though not exactly anywhere near) is the DCR TRV7/840. even though peolpe say it doesnt have any manual features which makes it comsumer wise, thats not precisely true, because they are all infact locked or hidden, and there is a way definately to unlock them, thus making the camcorder very useful indeed.

[edDV]

i see then, very interesting.

well, as i mentioned before, the closest D8 camcorder that would come to specs of a prosumer (even though not exactly anywhere near) is the DCR TRV7/840. even though peolpe say it doesnt have any manual features which makes it comsumer wise, thats not precisely true, because they are all infact locked or hidden, and there is a way definately to unlock them, thus making the camcorder very useful indeed.

The more those "cam" features can be unlocked the better. The "corder" section is great as it stands.

[xleggs]

Thanks for this discussion about Digital8. I need to load some old tapes as well, and figured that I might be able to find a camcorder with a good look as well. I shoot on DVCAM and HDV now, but it would be cool to have a V5000 with a Digital8 deck aboard!

[Undead Sega]

couldnt agree with you more.

i wonder if someone could buy the rights to D8 from Sony (since they dont really care about ti anymore) and actually make a much better product out of it. Hence Panasonic!

also, wat would be great if smoeone found a way to modify it, so someone can exchange the CCD inside for a 3CCD (most likely impossible).

[edDV]

No need to re-invent the wheel. Just buy a used broadcast cam (one with S-Video out) and velcro a Sony GV-D200 to it. Main issue with these cameras is battery management.







Some cheap used 3CCD TV cameras
http://telaviv.craigslist.org/ele/507240694.html
http://losangeles.craigslist.org/wst/ele/537040821.html
http://cgi.ebay.com/Panasonic-AG-450-Professional-S-VHS-Reporter-Camcorder_W0QQitemZ17...QQcmdZViewItem
http://cgi.ebay.com/Panasonic-AG-DP800-3CCD-Digital-S-VHS-Camera_W0QQitemZ280191794987...801130936a1844
http://www.bcs.tv/store/model_detail.cfm?id=5160
http://www.bcs.tv/store/model_detail.cfm?id=5142

[jfigursky]

Yes...Sony DCR-TRV950

[edDV]

Yes...Sony DCR-TRV950

The DCR-TRV950 is MiniDV not Digital8.
http://www.camcorderinfo.com/content/sony_dcrtrv950_camcorder_review.htm

[Undead Sega]

how nice would it be if we took the 3CCD chip from that model into the Digital8 model?