What Mac for a noob?

[DereX888]

Friend of mine has probs with her PC.
I can't fix it (motherboard problem).
She wants to buy new computer.
She is not a total n00b, but she is not proficient enough to use linux instead of windoze PC either.
She use her PC for usual stuff (email, chat, burn disc copies etc), the most advanced is perhaps converting crappy movies from her camera to DVD-Videos, nothing iMovie cant do (specially that her camera makes QT crapola only).
Being tired of fixing her (and windoze's own) mistakes that constantly happens, I want to talk her into buying Mac perhaps.
My knowledge of Macs is minimal, on the level of occasional user, so I'd appreciate any suggestions from cult followers

[orsetto]

I've been avoiding posting in any computer-related threads on this forum until now, because the virulent antagonism between platform partisans here is really a bit much and gives me a headache. Mac users need to stop being so defensive: since the company survived 1997, it'll survive anything. And you Windows users need to stop ripping into anyone as a "fanboy" who says they even looked at a Mac- it doesn't matter if they like them because of the visual styling or some OS feature you think is dorky- Windows still rules the world, why do you get so worked up? 9 out of 10 newbies come here wanting to find out how they can back up their DVDs. For them, the short answer is you have a lot more choices of DVD backup software on Windows and a better chance of them being developed and supported. Optical drives on Windows boxes can be swapped and updated much more easily. DVD backup can be done on a Mac but it isn't fun. (Yes, Virginia, there are some things easier on Windows and this is one of them.) On the other hand, for simple home editing of camcorder footage, the Windows users here are way too quick to dismiss iMovie and iDVD because they're "boring and limited and make all projects look me-too-ish". Your average mother of three (or her husband) could give a crap about that: they want it quick, they want it slick and they don't want to futz around. For them, a Mac is an easy solution to that problem if they're in the market for one and don't require a Windows box at home for any particular reason.

For ten years I was a Mac consultant (pre-OSX) for several graphic design and sportswear firms here in NY. The move to OSX made me nauseous , sorry but I hate it to this day and was not interested in managing the ugly transition for my poor clients. So I'm now a (yuck) middle manager in a company with a dozen offices around the country. A few years ago our IT folks got fed up with fielding Windows viruses for users all day long and moved to all-Mac desktops and laptops for everyone. The Macs are "thin clients" running the Windows XP Pro environment over a secure VPN via an MS Exchange Server amd XP Pro servers. My own duties include helping with some of the day to day maintenance so I have a lot of experience with recent Macs.

The flat panel G5 and Intel iMacs have been a disaster in our business settings: they look sleek, have decent specs, and seem like the ideal desktop for design-oriented offices, but they are badly engineered and they hose themselves constantly. They get hot as ovens, the optical drives are dead slow, and the fans keep dropping into tornado mode every time they crash (which is often). I'm lucky my branch is close to the Apple store near the Plaza Hotel: I'm on a first name basis with everyone at the genius bar from all our iMac repairs. This ain't a good thing- they run and hide behind the iPod displays when they see me coming. We haven't risked one of the new steel iMacs yet so jury's still out on that one.

Our laptops have fared better. The Intel MacBook is a tough cookie, our users drop them a lot and they keep going. The MacBook Pro is a little less tough because of the metal case but still pretty good. Several salespeople still prefer their iBook or Powerbook G4, they love them, they're not happy having to give them up to run Leopard so they might be allowed to stay on 10.4.x as long as they can hold out.

As the iMacs die we replace them with the Mac Mini, which has been a favorite with almost everyone in the company. The Mini G4s were damn near perfect- 6 months uptime without a reboot, and ran very very cool to the touch. The Intel Minis seem slightly less solid, less stable, and get hot as hell- put a thumb drive in the back panel USB port and it practically melts in ten minutes. BUT they don't crash and burn like the iMacs, they rarely crash at all and if they do they come back up right away. The damn iMacs rev their fans louder than a jet engine and melt down their power supplies if left in that state overnight.

So my recommendation for an "average" switcher from Windows would be Mac Mini desktop or MacBook laptop (The MacBook Pro and the Mac steel towers are usually more $ than a Windows convert wants to spend and are not necessarily worth it for "average" users). HOWEVER, I would not blindly suggest a Mac as a cure-all for someone fed up with Windows issues: a LOT depends on what the person REALLY does with their current Windows PC. Everybody and his sister claims they just do "light email and word processing" which I usually discover is a complete crock. Many Windows users at home are really heavy-duty into a number of *ahem* socializing websites etc. Many are into "kill zombies by the millions" game playing + throw in banking, shopping, investing, etc. Some of these people buy a Mac on impulse and are incredibly pissed when they discover a lot of sites are still optimized for Windows Internet Explorer or deny complete functionality to Macs altogether. (I laugh when ignorant bozos call Macs the "gay" computer- I can't tell you how many times I've heard of gay friends or relatives returning or selling a Mac a week after they bought it because they find the hottest "hookup" websites only work with WINDOWS Internet Explorer .) And the majority of Windows users absolutely loathe Safari at first sight, at the very least you have to install Firefox for them immediately to stop them coming after you with torches . The whole game scene is still way Windows-centric. And the dock is a huge annoyance to most Windows converts. Its not as easy to switch as Apple would have everyone believe. OSX is no picnic, this isn't the old days when OS9 was a noticeably easier environment for non-gearheads than Windows. Nowadays, judged strictly on usability, if you're totally objective you have to admit its a wash between OSX and XP Pro: they each have crappy features or quirks, each has significant advantages depending on your priorities: you pays your money and takes your chances with either. Of course if you have a compelling reason to choose either platform (personal familiarity, specialized apps, everyone at the university has one), that would tip the scales for you.

At the moment both platforms are struggling with major OS updates which makes it even more of a toss-up. Everyone I know who bought a new PC with Vista pre-installed is near-suicidal: they complain endlessly that they can't do anything and within two weeks go back to their old PC (unless they gave it away and can't get it back). MS being MS, it'll get fixed sooner or later, they're not likely to just scrap Vista despite all the complaints: if you're a current Windows user it may pay to just go thru the painful learning curve with Vista and stay in the game with MS. Apple's Leopard is not as dramatic a change but it's still been more disruptive than previous OSX upgrades. Apple being as tenacious as MS, this is probably the basis for all their future plans as well: you'll be on a new bandwagon with either platform. There are strong reasons to go Mac, there are equally strong reasons to stay with Windows and cope with the Vista transition. Consider your priorities carefully before choosing so you don't have any regrets.

Just my two cents. At 3:11AM. Jeez, I should be asleep by now...

[AlanHK]

The Mac Mini is designed for exactly this.

You keep the PC monitor and you can also use a PC USB keyboard and mouse, though you might prefer a nice Mac keyboard.

Certainly not for power users, as its only slightly more expandible than a laptop, but that's not your friend. As always, try to get more RAM than the minimum thrown in with the deal.

And check out some local Mac users' groups, there's nothing they like better than to help "switchers".

You might salvage the hard disk from the PC and put it in a USB or firewire enclosure, first copy the data files -- video, etc, she wants to keep then wipe it and use it for storage/backup.

[DereX888]

Thx, AlanHK. I just found exactly what you've suggested, a local Mac-users group, I'm planning to find someone who can lend me any Mac with OS X for next weekend so my friend could try it out.

orsetto: big big thank you for your excellent insight post! Made me think, thats for sure.
Now its my turn to go home and sleep

[mhar4]

Well, I bought an 20" iMac recently and I think it is absolutely great. No crashes no problems at all. All the software is so integrated. I would recommend one of those. I think it's a mistake to overthink these things.

[lordsmurf]

Anywhere I've ever worked, Mac's break down just as much (sometime more), and the users are just as dumb on MacOS as they were on Windows. The fail to understand that drag-and-drop just make shortcuts, or that deleting whole folders of files is easy. Too many startup programs are just as bad. Most of them still find a way to get a virus or install crapware.

A Mac is no substitute for education of being computer savvy.

As pointed out, most users still buy cheap games ($10 bin at Walmart, office stores, etc), and use a lot of IE-optimzed sites. Certain chat programs and other software they use just is not available.

The idea that "colleges use Macs" or "designers/journalists use Macs" is so 1980s and a bit 1990s. A large majority of college campuses are now entirely powered by Microsoft servers and workstations. Same goes for media companies, because Windows has more software (Adobe, being the biggest one).

I don't have a problem with either OS (or Linux for that matter). I have to use them all. But none of them are any better than the others. It's all task-based. Windows meets most task needs, while the others have more specialized uses. If you don't have those special needs, then no reason to get those systems.

Mac systems are also about twice the price, which dissuades most folks. And rightly so, especially for casual home users. No need to spend $1,000 when the $500 HP special works equally as good.

Good luck to you and your friend.

[rumplestiltskin]

iMac (20" or 24", your choice although I own the 24" and love it). Load it with 4GB of RAM ($120 or less). Buy AppleCare. Don't argue about this last item; it's insurance that gives you peace of mind for three years. Anything goes wrong, Apple comes to your house and fixes it. (No, you don't have to take it to CompUseless.) For those three years you may call Apple (toll-free) and ask them anything about any Mac app that accompanied the unit (the iLife suite, for example).

I've owned both PCs and Macs and, after Parallels was released, I jettisoned the PC and run my Windows apps in my Mac. Not quite as fast but there are only a few apps that don't have a reasonable alternative in OSX.

Or you could just have her buy a $300 PC and you can continue providing tech support. Your choice.

[AlanHK]

No need to spend $1,000 when the $500 HP special works equally as good.

Mac Mini, $599.

[lordsmurf]

I call BS.

The side-by-side specs of a Windows systems and a Mac system are almost always a double. That $599 Mini is more than likely missing things that would be found in a $500 Windows system. Let's start with the monitor, RAM, hard drive size, case size (for possible upgrades), and graphics card.

If you want a stripped down system, Walmart and Fry's have some Windows systems in the $200-300 range.

[AlanHK]

I call BS.

I said it was $500. Was that not true? If so, how is it BS?

Do you always have to be so obnoxious and insulting?

Silly question, of course you do. Jerk.

[lordsmurf]

* Intel Core 2 Duo Processor 1.83GHz
* 1GB DDR2-667 RAM
* 80GB 5,400RPM SATA Hard Drive
* Combo DVD-ROM/CD-RW Drive
* Intel Graphics Media Accelerator 950
* 10/100/1000 Network
* AirPort Extreme 802.11g Wireless Network
* Mac OS X v10.4 Tiger
* Display Not Included

Technically, yes, it's $599. But re-read the original post.
A tiny 5400rpm drive with no burner isn't going to help his friend with her camera movies to DVD. And no monitor (sure, maybe she has has one that can be used, but maybe not).

$799 adds a burner and 40GB more, but it's still 5400rpm. Not very good for DV.

This would work (iMac):
* Intel Core 2 Duo Processor 2.0GHz
* 1GB DDR2-667 RAM
* 250GB 7,200RPM SATA Hard Drive
* SuperDrive Double Layer DVD±RW Drive
* ATI Radeon HD 2400 XT
* 10/100/1000 Network
* AirPort Extreme 802.11n Wireless Network
* Mac OS X 10.4 "Tiger"
* 20" Widescreen LCD

But now you're looking at $1199. The same setup can be found in a Windows machine for about $500-600.

You can use a Mac, but you'll pay double for the privilege. It's something most people don't realize when Apple cult members and Mac-vs-PC ads fill them full of BS.

I find it sort of shocking that Apple even uses 5400rpm drives, or makes systems with no burner. Who does that? They basically strip the computer of modern needs to make a claim of "we have $500 systems too!"

Derex888, remember that switching OS on her will make her a "total n00b" as you put it. Anything she knew is now irrelevant. She'll bother you more, not less. Trust me. Been there, done that.

Again, I have nothing against Apple, but let's have some perspective here.

[DereX888]

Holy crap, I had no clue anyone still makes 5400rpm hdds today :O
Even laptop drives are mostly 7200 nowadays, so what the hell Jobs' people were thinking? Certainly lil' details like this will never help them get out of that tiny market niche...
But,
this is the most shocking news (news to me): NO BURNER?!
I mean, really, what the hell?!
I swear I thought my PocketPC is the very last and only computer device in the world not to have one! (and only due to its really compact size)! (oh, this, and the OLPC crap of course)

Derex888, remember that switching OS on her will make her a "total n00b" as you put it. Anything she knew is now irrelevant. She'll bother you more, not less.

That is so true, it might blow back in my face in the end.
Very good and valid point I have overlooked, lordsmurf. Thx!


Anyways, it is confirmed, I will borrow iMac running OS X Tiger from one guy for the next weekend, he said he'll set it up for new user exactly as it would be when you buy new one, all I'll have to do is to attach my friend to it and we'll see what'll happen
Im honestly myself curious how far she'll go before first asking me for help.

[Case]

Holy crap, I had no clue anyone still makes 5400rpm hdds today :O

Some people have built 7200 rpm drives into Minis, and the speed increase wasn't a lot. Speed freaks won't buy the Mini anyway, so why bother with faster drives? I think the logic must have been something like that.

But, this is the most shocking news (news to me): NO BURNER?!
I mean, really, what the hell?!

For those wanting a DVD DL burner, there is $799 model that is also faster and has a bigger standard hard drive.

[terryj]

* Intel Core 2 Duo Processor 1.83GHz
* 1GB DDR2-667 RAM
* 80GB 5,400RPM SATA Hard Drive
* Combo DVD-ROM/CD-RW Drive
* Intel Graphics Media Accelerator 950
* 10/100/1000 Network
* AirPort Extreme 802.11g Wireless Network
* Mac OS X v10.4 Tiger
* Display Not Included

Technically, yes, it's $599. But re-read the original post.
A tiny 5400rpm drive with no burner isn't going to help his friend with her camera movies to DVD. And no monitor (sure, maybe she has has one that can be used, but maybe not).

$799 adds a burner and 40GB more, but it's still 5400rpm. Not very good for DV.

This would work (iMac):
* Intel Core 2 Duo Processor 2.0GHz
* 1GB DDR2-667 RAM
* 250GB 7,200RPM SATA Hard Drive
* SuperDrive Double Layer DVD±RW Drive
* ATI Radeon HD 2400 XT
* 10/100/1000 Network
* AirPort Extreme 802.11n Wireless Network
* Mac OS X 10.4 "Tiger"
* 20" Widescreen LCD

But now you're looking at $1199. The same setup can be found in a Windows machine for about $500-600.

geez Smurfy, do you just walk in a store and pay what the sticker says?
I had thought you being the pompous resident super genius around these parts
would actually S H O P before you plunked down hard cash.....
:P

Best deals I found online. I mean, God, what else is the Internet for...?

Deal#1
Certified Pre-Owned iMac Intel Core 2 Duo/2.0 GHz

* 1024 MB of RAM
* 160 GB internal drive
* internal SuperDrive
* no modem installed
* includes keyboard and mouse
* Airport Extreme and Bluetooth installed
* 17" TFT display with built-in iSight
* Used Mac with 90 day warranty
* OS CD is not included
* OS 10.4.10 installed

Item Number:
c-u62748
Vendor:
Apple

Price: $999.00

Deal#2

Certified Pre-Owned iMac Intel Core Duo/2.0 GHz

* 2048 MB of RAM
* 250 GB internal drive
* internal SuperDrive
* no modem installed
* includes keyboard and mouse
* Airport Extreme and Bluetooth installed
* ATI Radeon X1600XT-128MB
* Built-in iSight
* 20" TFT Display
* Used Mac with 90 day warranty
* OS CD is not included
* OS 10.4.8 installed

Item Number:
c-u62727
Vendor:
Apple

Price: $1099.00


each one of the above macs also qualify for AppleCare, so you add that and your done.

Now as for your claims on a windows machine:

Your Mac Choice:

This would work (iMac):
* Intel Core 2 Duo Processor 2.0GHz
* 1GB DDR2-667 RAM
* 250GB 7,200RPM SATA Hard Drive
* SuperDrive Double Layer DVD±RW Drive
* ATI Radeon HD 2400 XT
* 10/100/1000 Network
* AirPort Extreme 802.11n Wireless Network
* Mac OS X 10.4 "Tiger"
* 20" Widescreen LCD
$1199

From Dell.com:

Dell Inspiron 530
Intel® Core™2 Duo Processor E4500 (2MB L2 Cache,2.20GHz,800 FSB
Genuine Windows® XP Professional - English
20 inch E207WFP Widescreen Digital Flat Panel
1GB Dual Channel DDR2 SDRAM at 667MHz- 2DIMMs
320GB Serial ATA Hard Drive (7200RPM) w/DataBurst Cache™
16x DVD+/-RW Drive
128MB ATI Radeon HD 2400 PRO
Integrated 7.1 Channel Audio
Dell USB Keyboard and Dell Premium Optical USB Mouse
Dell 19 in 1 Media Card Reader
56K PCI Data Fax Modem

$1,089
( If I chose a Printer, I would get $150 off)

true you get a better HD, but everything else being equal, you only save $110.

:P

[rumplestiltskin]

Sometimes there's just no helping a n00b. I was called in to help just such a guy transfer his PC data (photos mostly) to his new iMac. I put everything from his old PC into a folder on the Mac's Desktop named "My Data From PC" and told him that everything from his old PC was in that folder.

I got a call from him yesterday saying that he "couldn't find anything" and wanted to go back to his PC. I asked him if he had looked in that folder on his Desktop and he said he had not. I suggested to him that he should and miracle of miracles!, there was all of his stuff. I resisted the obvious temptation and simply asked him to eMail me with any further questions as I would be happy to answer them.

[ffooky]

"I had thought you being the pompous resident super genius"

C'mon, give smurfy a break. His sense to bollocks ratio is actually higher than his mac-related posts would suggest

[lordsmurf]

Apple controls prices to a great degree, much like Tempurpedic and other specialty companies do. They're not allowed to sell them outside of the set price except in certain conditions. It's always been that way. I've always wondered how this sort of price-fixing scheme is even legal.

The lady wants a "new computer" and you're giving prices for used equipment? If you want to to compare used Windows systems to used Mac systems, you're still go to find the Apple stuff at least 2x the cost. Probably more, to be honest, as used PCs have almost zero value. I guess that's one thing Mac has going for it, higher resell value. But it's not necessarily something I'd say was relevant.

Dell is expensive. Pick up the Sunday ads, and find all those systems available from Best Buy, office supply chains, and others (Fry's, Microcenter). Dell wants $1,600 for the same specs in an HP laptop that I paid $1,100 for. Those guys are often pretty ridiculous on their pricing.

You guys seem to miss the fact that I'm an Apple user too, and have been for longer than I've used Windows systems. Started on the Apple IIe (used DOS), programming on those awful crappy B&W Macs that gave bombs every 10 minutes (forget the OS), moved to OS 7 on a color system with Aldus PageMaker and Photoshop, then OS 8 (I actually liked OS8!), OS 9 for video, and OS X because you pretty much have to for current software. Used DOS on an 8088, 286, 386, 486. Windows 3 on a 486, followed by 95-XP on Pentiums. Computers are just tools. Pick the right tool for the job. Cost analyze the tools. When you do that, Mac comes up expensive and useful only for certain tasks. That's the main reason Mac lost favor in schools and the media industry.

[terryj]

Sometimes there's just no helping a n00b. I was called in to help just such a guy transfer his PC data (photos mostly) to his new iMac. I put everything from his old PC into a folder on the Mac's Desktop named "My Data From PC" and told him that everything from his old PC was in that folder.

I got a call from him yesterday saying that he "couldn't find anything" and wanted to go back to his PC. I asked him if he had looked in that folder on his Desktop and he said he had not. I suggested to him that he should and miracle of miracles!, there was all of his stuff. I resisted the obvious temptation and simply asked him to eMail me with any further questions as I would be happy to answer them.

lol!
a real charmer that one I bet....

[terryj]

<----BIIGGG SNIIP--->

You guys seem to miss the fact that I'm an Apple user too,
[ Uh, I've know that like 4ever, geez some us have been here a while too smurfy........terryj]

Computers are just tools. Pick the right tool for the job. Cost analyze the tools. When you do that, Mac comes up expensive and useful only for certain tasks. That's the main reason Mac lost favor in schools and the media industry. [/i]

So the 64 schools in my K-12 district one that are all getting new Mobile MacBook Labs a
total of 600, I don't have to image and get built and delivered before xmas
because Apple lost favor in education? WOW!!! wait until I tell my boss!!!!!!!!!!

Seriously smurfy, you do need to actually get out more and take a look see.
:P


In the last 18 months, in the Six main school Districts in Oklahoma, I have imaged more
iMac IC2D, Macbooks, and the rare occasional MPBs than I can stand.
If Apple lost ground in Education, I ain't seen it at my level, and I'm out there
day to day doing service and installs.


I can't speak for the University Level, so I won't. I can only speak for K-12,
where most kids are getting their first experience on computers, and
Vocational Colleges, where DTP, Graphic Design, and Multimedia courses
(VIDEO) are being taught on Macs. I service them, I install them, and
I'm not seeing them go away anytime soon. I've gotten nothing but busier,
not less busier.

And I won't dispute that the tool is right for the job, blah blah...
To me, it comes down to what you know, and what your comfortable with
period. Some people like hardback chairs, some people like recliners.
Some like Leather, some like cloth. Some like Ford, Some like Chevy.
Some like PCs, some like Macs.

and yes, I'll stack a Certified Mac against a new PC ANY DAY of THE WEEK.
What's saving a few pennies when the tool is the same whether it ships in
a black box or a brown one? I'm typing this on a refurbed mac, and it's still
going strong. I bet we take a show of hands, others are doing the same.
A mercedes is still a mercedes, pre-owned or not.

But it rides a little nicer (perception) if you saved a couple of hundred up front.

and I only threw out Dell because they are the PC wonderboys....More average joes
know "Dell" than they know "HP" or "Compaq".

[edDV]

<----BIIGGG SNIIP--->

You guys seem to miss the fact that I'm an Apple user too,
[ Uh, I've know that like 4ever, geez some us have been here a while too smurfy........terryj]

Computers are just tools. Pick the right tool for the job. Cost analyze the tools. When you do that, Mac comes up expensive and useful only for certain tasks. That's the main reason Mac lost favor in schools and the media industry. [/i]

So the 64 schools in my K-12 district one that are all getting new Mobile MacBook Labs a
total of 600, I don't have to image and get built and delivered before xmas
because Apple lost favor in education? WOW!!! wait until I tell my boss!!!!!!!!!!

Seriously smurfy, you do need to actually get out more and take a look see.
:P


In the last 18 months, in the Six main school Districts in Oklahoma, I have imaged more
iMac IC2D, Macbooks, and the rare occasional MPBs than I can stand.
If Apple lost ground in Education, I ain't seen it at my level, and I'm out there
day to day doing service and installs.


I can't speak for the University Level, so I won't. I can only speak for K-12,
where most kids are getting their first experience on computers, and
Vocational Colleges, where DTP, Graphic Design, and Multimedia courses
(VIDEO) are being taught on Macs. I service them, I install them, and
I'm not seeing them go away anytime soon. I've gotten nothing but busier,
not less busier.

And I won't dispute that the tool is right for the job, blah blah...
To me, it comes down to what you know, and what your comfortable with
period. Some people like hardback chairs, some people like recliners.
Some like Leather, some like cloth. Some like Ford, Some like Chevy.
Some like PCs, some like Macs.

and yes, I'll stack a Certified Mac against a new PC ANY DAY of THE WEEK.
What's saving a few pennies when the tool is the same whether it ships in
a black box or a brown one? I'm typing this on a refurbed mac, and it's still
going strong. I bet we take a show of hands, others are doing the same.
A mercedes is still a mercedes, pre-owned or not.

But it rides a little nicer (perception) if you saved a couple of hundred up front.

and I only threw out Dell because they are the PC wonderboys....More average joes
know "Dell" than they know "HP" or "Compaq".

How does that relate to the discussion?

Deploying laptops to mostly semi clueless high school students using government grade IT support (where 15% of students can hack circles around the best of them) causes one to use an autocratic OS. That plus government contract purchase rates.

An individual Mac owner isn't facing the same issues unless maybe they are in the "Cheaper by the Dozen" family situation. If you are the hapless sysadmin dealing with a mob of students, you too would look for one way of doing things, minimal virus/malware exposure and zero support for games.

I too have owned Apple/Mac's for years back to the Apple II through the good years and bad.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Apple_II

[AlanHK]

The lady wants a "new computer" and you're giving prices for used equipment?... Mac comes up expensive and useful only for certain tasks. That's the main reason Mac lost favor in schools and the media industry. [/i]

According to the original post, she has problems using a Windows PC and her friend, who ends up fixing it for her, wants something that causes less trouble. You are obviously a power user. You can trade off Windows flakiness to get cheaper hardware and software. It seems to me that she has relatively simple needs that would be completely met by a basic Mac, that would cost little if any more than a basic PC, and Macs are simply not affected by much of the woes that strike the PC user. Viruses and exploits are possible, but rarely if ever seen in the wild. Software is more expensive, but Apple's bundled stuff will probably meet or exceed her needs. The Mac users posting here seem to cope.

The models terryj gave were "used", but also reconditioned by Apple and covered by their warranty. All you lose is the "new computer smell". But in any case, it's not about the upfront cost, it's about ease of use. This quality is not a large consideration in institutional purchases, where accountants make the final choices in many cases. And of course, most accountants use Windows personally these days. Their choice is not a consideration unless you are one.

[edDV]

The lady wants a "new computer" and you're giving prices for used equipment?... Mac comes up expensive and useful only for certain tasks. That's the main reason Mac lost favor in schools and the media industry. [/i]

According to the original post, she has problems using a Windows PC and her friend, who ends up fixing it for her, wants something that causes less trouble. You are obviously a power user. You can trade off Windows flakiness to get cheaper hardware and software. It seems to me that she has relatively simple needs that would be completely met by a basic Mac, that would cost little if any more than a basic PC, and Macs are simply not affected by much of the woes that strike the PC user. Viruses and exploits are possible, but rarely if ever seen in the wild. Software is more expensive, but Apple's bundled stuff will probably meet or exceed her needs. ...

All this is exactly why I buy or recommend Mac Mini or MacBook to those minimalist users that I end up system supporting. The good news is they don't need to upgrade which is more expensive on the Mac. I expect them to be happy with it as is for a few years. The gamers and power users get my advice and maybe a component for Christmas but not my daily support.

[orsetto]

As Bob Dylan recently quoted on his radio show, "I strive to be brief but always end up obscure..." Yep, that's my post style, all right! So look out, here comes my followup post:

My first reply to DereX888 kind of got off track when I tried as usual to cover every thought in a single post (bad habit and I'm trying to change that, I promise). While I think I gave a balanced report of my experiences with "Windows to Mac" switching, in re-reading I see I could have been a little bit more positive about the Mac. While my main point holds, that if the Windows user in question is a power internet user or games nut they will be disappointed with a Mac, there is another side to the question which several posters have brought up: if your Windows-using friend primarily uses email and MS Office, surfs the internet without specialized needs, and is willing to pay somewhat of a premium for the hardware, Mac is an *excellent* alternative for the virus protection alone if nothing else. And there are a number of advantages beyond virus immunity.

To be clearer: there are two main "gotchas" with Macs:

One is power game enthusiasts, who will never be satisfied with Macs because there are fewer games available and because it isn't possible to rip out the video board in most Macs to experiment with alternatives. You would be surprised, but in survey after survey, year after year, this is probably named as the number one deal breaker against switching to Macs by existing Windows users. This baffles me, because the appeal of playing games on my computer has always completely eluded me. I just don't get it, especially the near-psychotic obsession with frame rates to the point where gamers are happy to blow as much $ on new video cards as they did on the damn computer. Personally, I have better things to do with my computer, if I want to play games I use a GameBoy on the subway, but to each his own. If you are computer game crazy, and are in friendly competition with your peers, the Mac is not for you. Period. If you could care less about games, a Mac can be a great choice for you, but only if you can also get past:

Gotcha number two: rotten coding on some websites. Many web designers are lazy, the fastest way to get a site up and running is to use tools provided by MS, and these will always result in a site that is utterly dependent on Windows Internet Explorer-exclusive browser code. This problem is easing up and not as bad as it once was, many companies are doing ground-up revamps of their sites with independent tools and in the process opening them up to Linux and Mac users. But it is still a very significant problem if even ONE site that you rely on for something important is Windows-centric. There are still quite a few banks, investment firms, insurance companies and for lack of a better word "pick-up sites" that require Windows Internet Explorer in order to work at all. Changing your bank for one that is platform-independent is annoying but easy enough to do if you go Mac, investment firms less easy to switch, and insurance firms are usually selected by your employer so you may have no choice at all there. "Pick Up Sites" I define crudely as any site whose primary goal is to get you laid, ladies and gentlemen. Everyone says "they don't go there", but most everyone is lying . Most such sites now work with any computer platform, but I hear many complaints about sites that still won't work with Macs or Linux, primarily due to problems with Windows-centric video chatting. If you don't do online banking/investing/insurance management, or you do so on sites that are Mac compatible, this is not a problem. Ditto the pick-up sites: if you don't use them, or are content to switch to one that is Mac-friendly, no problem.

If you can get past those hurdles, or you have a Windows box at work that can be pressed into service during your lunch hour for them, Mac is an *excellent* alternative. The most important computer uses are Microsoft Office, which is available very cheaply for Mac via Microsoft's widely-sold 'education' version, followed by email, which of course any Mac can do. Video editing and personal DVD creation is very simple with the bundled Apple programs, other alternatives are available. Same with photos from your camera: if the bundled iPhoto doesn't cut it for you, Adobe Photoshop Elements at $99 can do just about anything the overpriced $1500 Photoshop CS can do. The DVD burner installed on all the consumer-level Macs is slower than any Windows-PC burner, but for typical use at home its fine. If you are backing up 10 DVDs a day, you'll hate it, but a couple DVDs and CDs a day are totally doable.

The number one compelling reason to go Mac is the near-total lack of virus problems. You can email all day and night, open every attachment sent to you from random hackers in the Ukraine, and no harm whatsoever will come to your Mac. This advantage alone is worth the small-to-moderate price differential to go Mac. Some smartasses make the really inane point that "there's no viruses on Mac because there aren't enough Macs to attract hackers who crave widespread damage and fame". Well, DUH, yes of course! So who cares? That's great for Mac users! Mac sales have held steady percentagewise since the dark days of Apple's death spiral in 1997, even before the iPod cash cow came along, and Macs keep selling in strong enough numbers to keep the platform viable yet not enough to attract virus creators. And if they ever did attract virus hackers, the Unix underpinnings can be tweaked a little further to increase resistance.

Mac Minis in particular are incredibly stable little machines- you pretty much have to hit them with a sledgehammer to make them crash. We bang on them 24/7 in our offices, with more than a hundred deployed nationwide. They are not the ultimate in speed but they're plenty fast for most reasonable demands. If you already have a good monitor and keyboard, and the idea of a crash-free virus-free computer appeals to you, the $799 price tag (with DVD burner option) earns itself back pretty quickly in lack of aggravation and lack of having to annoy computer-savvy friends like DereX888 to help you.

Understand I am platform-agnostic. In my work I use Macs, I use Windows, I use Macs-running-Windows-on-a-remote-file-server. No solution is perfect. You choose the set of plus and minus that is most in sync with your needs. A Mac operated by a dolt can be as problematical as a Windows box, a Windows box operated by a careful person can work perfectly and avoid virus contamination. The most important feature of any computer is the person sitting at the keyboard.

[DereX888]

Thank you everyone for discussion.
I am PC user, that means Windows & Linux 99.99% of the time. Never been fan of Apple producs, and probably never will.
However I am not blind for the shortcomings of the platforms I do know well, and even though *I* have no problems with Windozes at all, I do see what kind of troubles people around me have when using WIndows PCs, and I also know that the most of the problems come from the user behind the keyboard himself - usually their stupidity (or lack of knowledge, whatever you want to call it). And, unfortunately, Windows in particular, is pretty much defenseless against it, unlike Linux or Mac.
Since my dear friend grew up in Windows environment, I didnt even think for a second to suggest her any Linux, because as soon as anything "command line" would be needed, it would probably end up with "people going after me with torches" (as someone put it nicely earlier).
Hence the idea about Mac, which at least from user interface point is more akin to Windows than any Linux is.
OTOH, come to think of it, there really aren't many choices in the personal computing. Beyond Win, nix and Mac anything else is so obscure that basically no one ever heard of anything else
Anyways.
Some people gave me/us here excellent, thought-out well, opinions in their posts, for which Im grateful. Lets keep it that way.
But I didnt intend it to become another useless Mac vs Windows vs The Rest of the World bashing each other and their dogs thread, and I hope it won't turn into such. Hopefully this thread may serve as a good reference and starting point for other users, who might face similar dilemma one day.

We all are entitled to opinions, and it will be boring world if we all would always agree on everything, right?
So lets not have any more flames, nor hold any personal grudges here anymore, please

Next Monday I'll let you all know how "the Mac test ride" went...

[lordsmurf]

I think if you set up a good Linux GUI based system, you'd be fine.

Sadly, however, there are not many good video tools for her to easily use, like Premiere Elements, Vegas Studio or iMovie. Isn't there also an FCP Express?

She may be stuck on Windows. Just remove IE (hide it as best as possible), use Firefox only, run a safety software like WinPatrol and Spybot and AVG a/v. Fix the HOSTS file with one that blocks bad sites. My parents are not super computer users, but I've manage to lock down their systems pretty well. If she requires IE for something, put the IE inside of VPC and let that be the only place it runs (make a backup of the VHD for easy recovery). You can put some safety stuff in the VPC Win OS too.

[edDV]

Linux works fine if the noob user is confined to browser based applications (e.g. Mail) plus maybe Star Office and you or other competent person take on the role of System Administrator.

[lordsmurf]

Let us know how this went. I'm curious.

[DereX888]

Let us know how this went. I'm curious.

well...
Today I pick up asus mobo with intel c2d and 2gb ram for cheap, used her existing hdd and few other parts, installed xp pro / office / nod32 and few other tools - problem solved easy way, case closed.

why no "Mac test":
It didn't happened, because on Friday when I went there, the guy (actually there were 2 of them) said that "they know who I am" and "they read my posts" here and there and there (i use same nick on few boards for years) and since i am a "hater" they don't want to help me with anything.
I would have laugh normally, but since I drove to the other side of town to pick up that damn Mac I really had to use The Force to stop myself from blowing away their stupid iHeads off... like they couldn't tell me that earlier by email.

If you read it, you 2 ******* iRetards, know that you were so close like never in your miserable ilife from being beaten up by a really pissed 'hater' who happened to have a black belt kyokushin and a 9mm Taurus always kept handy

[lordsmurf]

It would figure that existing Mac users are Apple's biggest enemy to getting new customers. It's almost humorous. Do these two jerk-offs work at the Apple Store, by chance? Those folks are always the most retarded members of the Apple world.

[DereX888]

Yeah I agree, too bad for Apple.

Maybe delete this thread? Seems kinda stupid now.