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  1. Member Xylob the Destroyer's Avatar
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    I don't see why it's the software vendor's fault that it took the customer longer than he expected to get around to using the software. 14 days means 14 days.
    If I bought a DVD player at Best Buy and didn't open it until 120 days later and then found out it was broken, I wouldn't expect them to give me a refund if their policy clearly stated I had 90 days to return it.
    Invalid compaint.
    Their policy and licensing agreement are fairly clear.
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    I disagree. I would never do that to any of my customers for any reason, terms or not. I've been more than reasonable with my request that falls outside their terms and conditions. I've not used it at all for any benefit to my business.. I could see if I derived SOME benefit or use, but this just isn't right.
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    Take your agenda elseware.
    They made there decision, which is reasonable, to me and others here.
    " really don't have the time to get on the phone to VISA, to much work to do!' give them a try they'll tell you to F#$K OFF as well!
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  4. Video Restorer lordsmurf's Avatar
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    Typical shady online script seller.

    From an unknown company like that, my max is $20, the same amount I'd ever spend on lottery tickets in one go. Why? Because they are both gambles.

    Only somebody like Vbulletin or ISAPI Rewrite would actually get money from me, a well-known, well-respected scripting group.
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    Yeah, I mean the point is they COULD give me my money back based on this situation. It would be the right thing to do as people. Terms and Conditions are written to help protect companies from abuse. I'm not abusing them. I tried my hardest to get the thing to work and it just didn't happen, do what's right and refund the money. I might as well claim a $99 charitable donation to Turn Key Web Tools on my taxes next year, ridiculous.
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  6. where is this company located ?
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    southern cali, near san diego, I know exactly where they are because I used to live down there..
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    " I'm not abusing them"

    "Absolutely do NOT buy from TurnKeyWebTools.com"

    Your got to be kidding!

    Time for your medication isn't it.
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  9. Member Xylob the Destroyer's Avatar
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    Of course you disagree.
    Please explain to me how it IS their fault that you didn't get around to using the product until AFTER the return period has expired.

    This is a case of the typical American attitude of entitlement. (I am an American by the way).
    You made a mistake. Own up to it. Suck it up. Shit happens. Learn from your mistake and move on. This is what's commonly known as "being a grown-up".
    TurnkeyWebTools is in business for one reason and one reason only. The same reason any business exists -- to make money. Not to give it away, and not to pay for your mistakes.
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  10. Member thecoalman's Avatar
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    It doesn't say it integrates with Joomla, have you tried running it standalone. For future reference you can usually find just about anything you need on sourceforge.net .

    I'd have to agree with them, if you waited 6 months to ask for a refund and you're trying to useit for something it wasn't designed to integrate with I really think that's your fault.
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    The thing some of you are missing is the company (supposedly) lied to him about what the software could do. The salesman said it should tied into Joomla, but it didnt.

    FYI: You can't set up a website and vet it for problems in 14 days.

    I deal with web software companies ($15k-$50k products) on a normal basis, and they almost always offer 30-60 days trial license, with an additional 30-90 money back SLA (sometimes with prorated rates).

    There is a major problem online with scummy "companies" feeding people bullshit just to steal their money. It happens very often with web hosting and script/template selling. Reading what that company wrote gives me a bad vibe. Fits the profile to the letter. Visit TurnKeyWebTools.com and see how it uses a quick template with testimonials and shitty clipart and stock photos. Tons of pompous "we are the leading ... blah blah blah" (bends over to suck own d***). That "live sales" and "live support" chat is always crap too, as people are almost never actually in them**. I require e-mail communications on a regular basis, or a follow-up e-mail (after a phone call) to document the discussion. I'm so tired of seeing these sorts of sites online, hate it when they turn up in search results (paid or otherwise).

    I would never buy software sight-unseen like this (unless it was $20 or less), I would request a trial even if the site did not mention it. Many of them (the good ones, at least) work with you on it, either with a trial or a demo of some sort. Sometimes fancy integrations will land you a free license, as it means that company now has more market to go after (assuming you share your code with them, which would have landed the free license). They don't see you as a customers as much as a free developer (in exchange for little to nothing out of pocket on their end).

    Closing tickets with no comments in a helpdesk is bad form, shows a complete disinterest in the customers and lack of customer service in general.

    Waiting months and months was probably not a good idea, no.


    ** Using this kind of product would land you in the same situation. I advise against any and all web chat systems, at least for businesses. It lacks saved documentation, they're almost impossible to staff, and it looks bad to be empty during off hours. **
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  12. Member Xylob the Destroyer's Avatar
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    I'm not saying that some of their practices aren't questionable, but the customer still has a lot of responsibility in this (and every) scenario and really doesn't seem like he wants to accept that.
    "To steal ideas from one person is plagiarism; to steal from many is research." - Steven Wright
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  13. Video Restorer lordsmurf's Avatar
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    He probably would have never complained in that sort of post, had the company also acted responsibly (answering the helpdesk tickets and explaining the policy).

    I think that's really what it's all about anyway. It's very likely that ALL help tickets are treated this way. That would fit the profile.

    It's a good warning, regardless of whether we want to agree or disagree on the refund aspect.
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    I don't want to get into semantics here but to me if a salesman sais it SHOULD work with his software and it doesn't thats not a lie.
    He has 14 days to find out for himself, thats clearly documented on the site he purchased from. 14 Days.

    For what ever reason he now wants more than 12x that.

    Why should it be turnkeywebtools problem?

    It's been more than 6 months, for what ever reason you give, its your problem that the wed site wasn't ready, not theirs, you should have purchased it 6 months later than you did!

    As has been said before shit happens, but don't expect others to pick up the tab.
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  15. Video Restorer lordsmurf's Avatar
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    "It should work." is still a lie. Honesty would have been "We've not tested it, we're not sure, but you're welcome to try. Theoretically it should work." There are other oddities in having a document faxed in, and having the refund "reviewed". The truth is these people are a bunch of retaliating bastards: "It has also come to our attention that you have posted negative information about us on a forum" ...... end of story.

    They were willing to work with him --- hell, even "Josh" in tech support told him to request the refund --- but not when he started to complain publically. These people are not businessmen, they are novices to business. This is the kind of thing that makes tradezine articles, newspaper tech sections and tech magazines. Worried about a forum? They'd probably shit a brick if this was taken to print (and not a damned bit of it would be considered libel, as it's truth, and nothing hurts - or is as completely protected - like the truth). They'd have to eat it. At least that $99 will buy them a lot of ketchup. I can't imagine GE or Verizon or a REAL company telling a customer "no, you complained to the newspaper or (local tv news), so we're not going to help you anymore". That sort of negatives attention usually makes them do what's right, treat the customer well. Companies that don't fail miserably and wither away as they should. People like to complain about the "liberal mainstream media", but the truth is we protect your ass more than you realize. It's not called "the 4th estate" for nothing.

    Mike, I suggest you leave a big fat stinking review over at webhostingtalk.com. Put it here: http://www.webhostingtalk.com/forumdisplay.php?f=9
    That should maximize the visibility of your complaint. That place is a breeding ground for their key market audience.

    I would not harp on the $99 refund as much as you being told it "should" work (and it didn't), your requesting a refund (and the seeming willingness to give one), then the retaliation (quote it, word for word), along with the horrible help desk support (closed tickets, no replies, weeks waiting, etc). Don't mess with whining over the lost money, instead attack the vengeful nature of the company, and it's slow ass support system, concerning a product that didn't live up to expectation. I'd also avoid crossposting links to other forums. Nobody likes companies that retaliate against customers.

    I would not at all be surprised if more people chime in with "it happened to me too" complaints. Most people keep quiet, they're followers (not leaders), until somebody else complains first. They see it as "permission" to then complain. This can be both good and bad (nobody likes a bandwagon), but it often gives a good picture of how widespread the issue is.

    If you'd like to write letters to the editors of some good relevant magazines, PM me, and I'll PM you contact information next week. I'm not talking PC World, but tradezines (professional trade magazines, given to the web hosting/content industry).

    I don't even know why you tried the product. Google hits are almost all about security flaws and coding errors. As a developer, you should also know 14 days won't cut it.

    Asking for a refund at this late date probably is unreasonable, but the way they've handle you here is not right either. If they were not willing to refund, why did tech support suggest it? Why did they review it? Why have you submit signatures and forms? ......... But it needs to be pointed out that we do not know the timeline here. Date of pre-sales conversations, date of purchase, dates of relevant issues (tech calls, problems, etc), date of refund request .... we only know the dates from the post-request time period. I'm sure it was more than 14 days.

    I've never heard of this software, for the record, until this post. I wouldn't have even cared, had it not been a retaliation situation, and against somebody I "know" (term used loosely, but you know what I mean) on a common forum.
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    "it should work and it didn't " and 6 months later he wants his money back!

    Only in America!
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  17. Video Restorer lordsmurf's Avatar
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    Originally Posted by The1
    Only in America!
    You think Mike is stupid? Okay, fine, fair opinion.

    But stupidity is not isolated to our continent:
    http://cgi.darwinawards.com/cgi/search.pl?keywords=australia&submit=Search+Darwin&swis...&maxresults=50
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    I am partners with my Father-in-law in a small business venture. We make plugins for a popular Computer Aided Design (CAD) package. This is our refund policy: All sales are final. Here's why.

    1. You download a demo version. The demo is good for 30 calendar days from the date it is first run on the system.
    2. We have been known to give an extension on the 30 day demo, on request. The 30+ days should be more than enough to determine if the program meets your needs.
    3. We provide what our customers tell us is excellent support before and after the purchase.
    4. If you find a bug in our software, we fix it. You get the fix for free, even if you've already purchased our product.
    5. If you need a new feature we add it. Chances are, if you need it, someone else also needs it.
    6. If you upgrade your CAD package to a version that is not binary compatible with the version of our software you have purchased, you can upgrade our software at a discounted rate.

    We feel that the try-before-you-buy policy, along with the free support we provide, eliminates the need for refunding money to people who have purchased our product. Are there other software authors out there who also feel this way?

    CogoSWSDS
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    Originally Posted by lordsmurf
    Originally Posted by The1
    Only in America!
    You think Mike is stupid? Okay, fine, fair opinion.

    But stupidity is not isolated to our continent:
    http://cgi.darwinawards.com/cgi/search.pl?keywords=australia&submit=Search+Darwin&swis...&maxresults=50

    lordsmurf don't ever try and think for me!!
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  20. Originally Posted by CogoSWSDS
    We feel that the try-before-you-buy policy, along with the free support we provide, eliminates the need for refunding money to people who have purchased our product. Are there other software authors out there who also feel this way?
    Absolutely. I offer as much support as needed to users for free - whether they are testing the trial version or have purchased the software. Bug reports are dealt with promptly and I work closely with the customer(s) to ensure the software has been fixed accordingly - again licensed owners or trial users. Sometimes I'll get a new feature request, implement it and see if it meets the prospective customer's needs. If it does, I get a sale. If it doesn't, it's a feature for the next version. Occasionally, clients actually pay for development of some new features for a custom version of the software and these end up in the subsequent new public versions.

    I've only had one instance of a request for a refund and that was due to a mistake by the customer (they thought it did something it doesn't and hadn't bothered to use the trial period first!) When I explained our policy (which is clearly stated with the software), he accepted it.

    On the other hand, I had a person from Brazil want to buy one of our products but didn't have a credit card or PayPal to do it online. He wanted to wire me the money. After a few email exchanges, I suggested that the cost of wiring it would cost both of us more than the software ($15) so I simply let him have a license for free.
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  21. Video Restorer lordsmurf's Avatar
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    Originally Posted by CogoSWSDS
    I am partners with my Father-in-law in a small business venture. We make plugins for a popular Computer Aided Design (CAD) package. This is our refund policy: All sales are final. Here's why.
    -snip-
    We feel that the try-before-you-buy policy, along with the free support we provide, eliminates the need for refunding money to people who have purchased our product. A
    CogoSWSDS
    Very reasonable, indeed.
    Software developers that don't provide trials should be in another business.
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    Originally Posted by lordsmurf
    FYI: You can't set up a website and vet it for problems in 14 days.
    An etire website? No you can't but I think it's pretty easy to determine if a small program will especially if there is major bug like it doesn't work at all.. :P
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    Originally Posted by thecoalman
    Originally Posted by lordsmurf
    FYI: You can't set up a website and vet it for problems in 14 days.
    An etire website? No you can't but I think it's pretty easy to determine if a small program will especially if there is major bug like it doesn't work at all.. :P
    I take it you've never worked with a major CMS, have you?

    There's nothing "small" in a CMS.

    The custom integrations can sometimes takes months, with a team of developers.
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    Originally Posted by lordsmurf
    I take it you've never worked with a major CMS, have you?
    No need, I'm developing my own. It's not going to have the flexibility of a full blown CMS but that is not the intention. It's being developed to work specifically with sites I design. I've looked at few but none of them fit my needs, either way overboard or too hard to integrate. There's other issues too, security problems like any software that is widely distributed top my list. Too many eggs in one frying pan.

    Here's screenshots from the "add new page" in early developemnent:





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    Good luck with that. I'd love to see it when you're done.
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    Originally Posted by lordsmurf
    Typical shady online script seller.

    From an unknown company like that, my max is $20, the same amount I'd ever spend on lottery tickets in one go. Why? Because they are both gambles.
    And you came to this conclusion how exactly? You know absolutely nothing about us I would imagine from your comments. We may not be as big as Vbulletin but in the shopping cart community we are well known and one of the leading competitors. You want to know more about us, just ask. In fact, come on down to our office and we will be happy to discuss our company with you. We are in no way "shady" and all of our information is publicly available.

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    http://dictionary.reference.com/browse/shady

    shad·y /ˈʃeɪdi/ Pronunciation Key - Show Spelled Pronunciation[shey-dee] Pronunciation Key - Show IPA Pronunciation
    –adjective, shad·i·er, shad·i·est.
    1. abounding in shade; shaded: shady paths.
    2. giving shade: a shady tree.
    3. shadowy; indistinct; spectral.
    4. of dubious character; rather disreputable: shady dealings.
    Withholding refund in retaliation is a shady deal. Therefore a shady company.

    Calling yourself a major competitor is a joke. Want a REAL shopping cart solution? How about osCommerce, X-Cart, Miva Merchant or ZenCart. Those are the real products in that line of work. And I doubt any of them (where pay is involved) would jerk a customer around. While you have the right to deny a refund, your tactics and attitude are questionable.

    Feel free to post back and make your company look even worse than it already does, but leaving and not coming back would be my suggestion. And then refrain from acting like an ass with customers in the future. Either learn from your mistakes (and this was a mistake, and you should admit it - I suggest a 50% refund as an apology), or fail as a company. End of story. Mike wasn't necessarily right, but you have to hold the high ground.
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    Originally Posted by lordsmurf
    Withholding refund in retaliation is a shady deal. Therefore a shady company.
    Retaliation? Retaliation for what exactly? Are you talking about the same case I am? At any rate, I would hardly call osCommerce or Miva decent shopping carts. Yes, they may be well known but that doesn't make their solutions better. You should take a look at what we offer, you may be surprised.

    Originally Posted by lordsmurf
    I suggest you leave this forum and not come back. Tuck the tail and run.
    That right there tells me everything I need to know about you but I wont be taking your advice. You obviously know little about ethics or business standards so I wont be taking advice or demands from you.

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    Are you ******* stupid?

    Read your own e-mails (as posted in that other forum by your customer):
    It has also come to our attention that you have posted negative information about us on a forum. It makes it really hard to want to help you when you do something like this.
    http://www.sitepoint.com/forums/showpost.php?s=928c235908607266c74ae1f194d39688&p=3608...79&postcount=3

    Congratulations. You just pissed off a journalist. When I get some time, I'll be writing a few magazine editors (assuming Mike wants to cooperate, it's up to him).

    This BS of online companies retaliating against customers is for the birds. You were seemingly perfectly willing to give a refund before finding a negative comment. It's your own fault he even left the negative comment, having taken so long to respond to a refund information ticket. I'd have to say this could almost be considered "refund extortion".

    Maybe Mike lied to us? But you sure haven't given any different story. Just a defensive attitude.

    You're supposed to apologize, suck it up, explain what went wrong (or give the version of truth you know), and then refunds are STILL optional. If you want to see somebody with zero business sense, look in a mirror.
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