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  1. The Old One SatStorm's Avatar
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    Sony' LCD's use Samsung panels / technology. It is Samsung's in disguise.

    Some of the latest Sharps I tested recently, also add frames for better motion. But they don't do yet that good this thing as Samsung.

    Unfortunatelly, LCDs with HDMI 1.3 lock the upscaling from the DVDs. So, you can only feed your TVs with 480p/576p through HDMI. If you feed the TV with an upscaled DVD signal, those Samsung/Sony LCDs de-activate the motion drive.
    The bad people say that this happens because Sony asked it from Samsung.
    I was lucky enough to buy a HD Ready Samsung M91 LCD TV, probably one of the few unlocked HDMI TVs out there. On this TV, an upscaled PAL DVD looks excellent. Not HiDef, but close enough (I receive HiDef DVB channels, so I can easily compare - don't mention my occasional tests with HD DVD & BD players)

    100/120Hz has also a side effect: It is called "Hallow Effect".
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  2. Member nick101181's Avatar
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    Please tell me more about these unlocked hdmi tv's,Satstorm. I just got a ps3 and I think it has upscaling so I'd need a tv that wasn't hdmi locked.
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  3. DVD Ninja budz's Avatar
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    Originally Posted by SatStorm
    Sony' LCD's use Samsung panels / technology. It is Samsung's in disguise.

    Some of the latest Sharps I tested recently, also add frames for better motion. But they don't do yet that good this thing as Samsung.

    Unfortunatelly, LCDs with HDMI 1.3 lock the upscaling from the DVDs. So, you can only feed your TVs with 480p/576p through HDMI. If you feed the TV with an upscaled DVD signal, those Samsung/Sony LCDs de-activate the motion drive.
    The bad people say that this happens because Sony asked it from Samsung.
    I was lucky enough to buy a HD Ready Samsung M91 LCD TV, probably one of the few unlocked HDMI TVs out there. On this TV, an upscaled PAL DVD looks excellent. Not HiDef, but close enough (I receive HiDef DVB channels, so I can easily compare - don't mention my occasional tests with HD DVD & BD players)

    100/120Hz has also a side effect: It is called "Hallow Effect".
    Does this mean if I'm using a HDMI 1.3 cable on my 40 inch SONY lcd tv and using a upconverting dvd player the most I'll get is a 480P? Or does it just deactivate the motion drive which could then cause motion blur? From what I've heard SAMSUNG makes lcd panels for other manufacturers other than SONY. I bought the HDMI 1.3 thinking it would be useful with my new SONY lcd that has HDMI 1.3 capability. I'd appreciate more info on the unlocked/locked HDMI. Thanks in advance!
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  4. Member edDV's Avatar
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    I've never heard of HDMI v1.3 having anything to do with upconverting DVD players. It is mostly for the future (expanded color space) but some Blu-Ray players use it in a limited "cheating" way to expand bit depth to 10.
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  5. Originally Posted by SatStorm
    Unfortunatelly, LCDs with HDMI 1.3 lock the upscaling from the DVDs. So, you can only feed your TVs with 480p/576p through HDMI. If you feed the TV with an upscaled DVD signal, those Samsung/Sony LCDs de-activate the motion drive.
    How does the TV know the HDMI source is an upscaled DVD rather than some other HD device?
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  6. Member edDV's Avatar
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    Originally Posted by jagabo
    Originally Posted by SatStorm
    Unfortunatelly, LCDs with HDMI 1.3 lock the upscaling from the DVDs. So, you can only feed your TVs with 480p/576p through HDMI. If you feed the TV with an upscaled DVD signal, those Samsung/Sony LCDs de-activate the motion drive.
    How does the TV know the HDMI source is an upscaled DVD rather than some other HD device?
    Player HDCP would so do that but players aren't supposed to be using HDCP.
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  7. The Old One SatStorm's Avatar
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    HDCP is the reason for "locking"

    The situation is like that:
    By using HDMI 1.3 and DVD players with upscalers, you have the following choices:

    1 - Output 480p/576p through HDMI 1.3: Motion drive is on, but no upscaling from TV. DVDs looks blured

    2 - Output 720p/1080i/1080p through HDMI 1.3: Motion drive is off, no TV upscaling.

    3 - Use SCART / S-Video / Composite (!): TV upscales + motion drive is on

    4 - Use Component for 480p/576p : TV Upscales + motion drive is on

    5 - Use Component for 720p/1080i: Motion drive might be on. Start playing the disc, switch off TV then turn on. You might fool the TV and not limit the signal

    TVs detect through HDMI the HDCP info and knows if the signal is from BD/HD DVD or an upscaled DVD. The flags are different. From what I know, the upscaled DVDs send a "blank" HDCP signal to the TV, the signal of BD/HD DVD has some extra infos.
    I don't know how they manage to limit the component inputs.

    Test yourself those limitations: Just connect your DVD player through S-Video / SCART (with RGB) or simply Component (480p/576p) on your TV and check the motion, not the colours or the sharpness: The motion is far better using the analogue inputs, because TV upscales & add frames (motion drive).

    Most test are for sharpness, colour accuracy and contrast. There are no tests about motion, since this is something new and only few know about it. Most people believe that this has to do with the HiDef signal, but in fact motion drive is an msu technology for any kind of signal

    Actually, motion drive is the combination of the following filters:
    http://www.compression.ru/video/resampling/index_en.html
    http://www.compression.ru/video/frame_rate_conversion/index_en.html
    http://www.compression.ru/video/deinterlacing_samsung/index_en.html

    There is no Full HD "unlocked" TVs right now. Only few HD ready models are unlocked (Samsung's M71 / M91)

    The latest Samsung F86 is unlocked for 720p but not 1080i/p.This must happened by mistake, or Samsung decided to release selected models with 720p unlocked, probably because the DVD player manufactures (and the game consoles) demand it! Sony locks everything.
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  8. Member edDV's Avatar
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    Very interesting. So does the HDMI v1.3 cable have something to do with this or is it just a TV "feature". In other words, would an older HDMI cable allow the upscale but not allow the motion interpolation? Can an older cable be used and the TV newer allows motion interpolation?
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  9. The Old One SatStorm's Avatar
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    I don't really know edDV if it is something implement on HDMI 1.3, or something that the Samsung panel based TVs do by themselfs!

    I only know that happens and according an unofficial EISA source, the reason they lock those technologies on the current TVs, is to make HiDef discs look better on small (46 or less) TV Screens.
    Actually, those limitations appeared on the latest models, after May 2007, just after Panasonic announced that we don't need a 1080i/p panel under 50" if we watch TV around 3 meters (the so called average distance).
    So, they keep the "motion drive" technology only for HDDVD/BD discs.
    Among the users, there is a rumor that Toshiba's A2/A3 HD DVDs, do a great upscaling on normal DVDs. Maybe, those players bypass the locking I mention and people believes it has to do with the players.
    Companies would do anything to sell HD DVD players and BD players. Maybe the idea behind this current situation is that people showed that they won't buy HiDef players for HiDef discs: but if people "learn" that those players do a "good" upscaling for their normal DVDs, they might buy them!
    It seems that this works: Many testify how good Toshiba's DVD DVD players "upscale" DVDs!
    Toshiba here is not the evil: At least they allow some limitation bypassing. BD players on the other hand, don't allow that (I never heard that BD players upscale good DVDs, but maybe I'm mistaken on this).
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  10. Member FulciLives's Avatar
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    I read an article somewhere that compared the TV output of Nvidia PureVideo VS the output of ATI Avivo VS the Sony PS3. All output was of a standard 480p DVD upscaled to 1080p. This was then compared to the Blu-Ray version as a reference point in what a true 1080p signal should look like.

    All three looked good with their upscaling but the PS3 was the winner "by a wide margin" with the conclusion being that the PS3 was better at standard DVD up conversion. Of course they didn't test a HD-DVD player which they claim was to be part of the test but fell through due to neither Microsoft (Xbox360 add-on) nor Toshiba (stand alone HD-DVD player) offering sample hardware per their request.

    Anyway ... Here is the link: http://www.firingsquad.com/hardware/autumn_2007_video_shootout/

    - John "FulciLives" Coleman

    P.S.
    I just bought the 80GB sized PS3 but I will not be hooking it up until Christmas time since it is a Christmas present and as such is all packaged up under the Christmas tree. I bought the PS3 Bluetooth DVD/Blu-Ray remote and one extra game (it comes with one game). I still have to get an HDMI cable and a Blu-Ray movie. I plan on buying the Blu-Ray "ULTIMATE" edition of BLADE RUNNER (one of my favorite movies) when it comes out (which is any day now I think). Please note that while my HDTV has HDMI it is only 1080i capable. I guess I'll report my feelings on the PS3 when I get a chance to "play" with it.

    Actually my favorite movie of all time, period, is DAWN OF THE DEAD (the original thank you) and I have the Anchor Bay Entertainment DIVIMAX release which used a 1080p transfer (although it is a standard 480p DVD Video). Anchor Bay just released a Blu-Ray disc of DAWN OF THE DEAD which uses that same 1080p transfer (but of course without the need to downsample it to 480p). I'll probably get that as 1.) it is my favorite movie and 2.) will be a good comparison for standard DVD vs Blu-Ray since they both used the same master.

    I have to admit I bought the PS3 for game play first but having a Blu-Ray player will be nice although I will vastly limit the titles I buy to absolute "essentials" like DAWN OF THE DEAD and BLADE RUNNER etc. as I have no idea what is going to happen with the HD-DVD vs Blu-Ray "war". For the most part I'll be sticking to NETFLIX for my Blu-Ray movie watching experience (rather than buying titles left and right).
    "The eyes are the first thing that you have to destroy ... because they have seen too many bad things" - Lucio Fulci
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  11. haha I found this thread 5 years later on google and just laughed that you were paying $1100 for a 32 inch tv
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  12. Video Restorer lordsmurf's Avatar
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    Originally Posted by rich96 View Post
    haha I found this thread 5 years later on google and just laughed that you were paying $1100 for a 32 inch tv
    I guess so. Prices change.
    I paid almost $1,000 for my first DVD burner way back in 2001.

    Stuff costs what it costs.

    I kept invoices showing that blank DVD-R were $5+ each -- just for laughs.
    Want my help? Ask here! (not via PM!)
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  13. Banned
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    Originally Posted by rich96 View Post
    haha I found this thread 5 years later on google and just laughed that you were paying $1100 for a 32 inch tv
    Kids
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  14. Member
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    Originally Posted by Noahtuck View Post
    Originally Posted by rich96 View Post
    haha I found this thread 5 years later on google and just laughed that you were paying $1100 for a 32 inch tv
    Kids
    I know. This is the absolute worst dumbest old thread resurrection ever. On any forum.
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