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  1. Member
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    Hey guys. I'm using my PS3 as a blu-ray player with the latest 2.01 firmware update, HDMI 1.3 w/ optical cable. My TV is a 60" HD plasma fully capable of displaying 1080P/24, and my receiver can easily handle lossless audio. It's a very powerful setup. Yet when I pop in a blu-ray disc, I can't tell the difference. Maybe it wasn't the best disc to test, but the video and audio on Cars got near perfect ratings. I popped in the DVD and watched the beginning race. Then I immediately popped it out and put in the blu-ray version, watching and listening up to the same point. I couldn't tell a difference in video or sound quality at all. I think I have an optimal system to take advantage of the benefits of HD video and audio. I'm sure if you did some precise technical testing that you could find subtle improvents with blu-ray, but I just care about what the movie looks and sounds like. Extras aside, I'm having trouble justifying paying an extra $15-$20 bucks for what appears to be the same quality as a 1080P upscaled DVD. Does anyone else agree or am I missing something?
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  2. Member Grain's Avatar
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    Addressing strictly your audio comments: if your using an optical cable for audio, your not taking full advantage of the new codecs. You'll need to feed the audio to your receiver with the HDMI cable (no need for the optical), and have it do the decoding.

    Re Video, with most HD-DVD's or BluRay's I can see a noticable improvement over SD-DVD's. Some are not appreciable improvements, most are.
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  3. It is possible that "Cars" is not a good candidate to assess the difference in video quality between an upscaled standard definition dvd vs. a fully high definition dvd (HD or Blue-Ray) since it is an animated film. I'd suggest conducting a comparison using a recent high quality dvd/film with live actors.
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  4. Member edDV's Avatar
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    TV Model number?
    Something is wrong here. How is the PS3 set for output?
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    Grain: I have everything going into my receiver via HDMI and running out of the receiver via HDMI to my TV. However, I also have an optical cable going from my PS3 into my receiver. Likewise with my Xbox360, even though it has nothing to do with HD movies. So what do I do then? Do I remove both optical cables? If I do, my receiver won't output any sound to my speakers (my plasma is monitor only). I have the usual input labels on my reciver/remote (DVD, TV, CD, Tuner, Auxilary, VHS, etc...). I can set the output to each input label, but I can only use HDMI output once since my receiver only has one output. I have three optical outputs, so I can use that designated audio output three times. Does that make any sense? Also, if I program the audio output to something else, then it screws with my video, and I can't that device to even show up on screen. Does any of this make sense? I feel like I'm a babling idiot and not describing this very well.

    Rich86: You're probably right about trying Cars as an example. Can you think of a movie that would be easier to compare? Non-cartoon obviously.

    edDV: I'm at work. I'll get you that info once I get home. Thanks for going that far out of your way to try and help!
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  6. I agree with Rich86 that "Cars" is not the best sample to test quality differences on.

    There are reviews on the net which clearly show differences. I know your set up is Blu-Ray, but here is an HD-DVD vs DVD, for example

    http://www.firingsquad.com/features/transformers_hd_dvd_review/page2.asp
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  7. Member edDV's Avatar
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    We also need the audio receiver model number.
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    Wow, thanks edDV. You'll have it all in a few hours. Again, thank you so much for going out of your way.
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  9. Video Restorer lordsmurf's Avatar
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    Originally Posted by poisondeathray
    I agree with Rich86 that "Cars" is not the best sample to test quality differences on.
    There are reviews on the net which clearly show differences. I know your set up is Blu-Ray, but here is an HD-DVD vs DVD, for example
    http://www.firingsquad.com/features/transformers_hd_dvd_review/page2.asp
    Different wiring and different DVD player decoders perform differently.

    Too many tests are using composite on a cheap Chinese DVD recorder, instead of component or s-video on a really good DVD player.

    This one has too much color noise in the signals, something is very wrong here.

    It also fails to mention any scales.
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  10. Member Grain's Avatar
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    Originally Posted by corvette77
    Grain: I have everything going into my receiver via HDMI and running out of the receiver via HDMI to my TV. ... Do I remove both optical cables? If I do, my receiver won't output any sound to my speakers (my plasma is monitor only).
    Then your not getting your audio over HDMI, your getting it via the optical cable, which can't carry full Dolby TrueHD for example. You'll need to set the PS3 to send the audio to the receiver over HDMI to take full advantage of "lossless" sound.

    Originally Posted by corvette77
    I have the usual input labels on my reciver/remote (DVD, TV, CD, Tuner, Auxilary, VHS, etc...). I can set the output to each input label, but I can only use HDMI output once since my receiver only has one output.

    That should be fine, your only feeding one TV. How many HDMI in's do you have though?
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    I think the answer is clear. If you're getting down to the quality of the wiring, cable types used and asking for the exact model numbers of specific equipment to justify why you don't see a significant difference, then I'm sorry, but there isn't one. This is called clutching at straws to justify the expense. The OP is right, there is no significant noticeable difference between HDDVD and conventional DVD. It's purely marketing to sell you the same movies over and over again because they can't produce anything better to sell you.
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  12. Member Grain's Avatar
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    Originally Posted by DRP
    I think the answer is clear. If you're getting down to the quality of the wiring, cable types used and asking for the exact model numbers of specific equipment to justify why you don't see a significant difference, then I'm sorry, but there isn't one.
    Your absolutely right, if your watching them on SD TV.
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    edDV - Here's what I've got:


    TV Model: Panasonic TH-65PX600U

    Receiver Model: Denon AVR2307-CI

    The receiver has (2) HDMI-in and (1) HDMI-out. My PS3 goes out into HDMI-in #1 (and my Xbox360 goes into HDMI-in #2). The HDMI-out goes into the HDMI-in on my TV.

    The receiver also has (3) Optical-in. My PS3 is connected to Optical-in #3 (and my Xbox360 goes into Optical-in #2 / Optical #1 is empty).

    Receiver settings:

    Audio Input Setup/Digital In Assign - PS3 is set to Optical-in #3 (and Xbox360 is set to Optical-in #2)
    *** I see now where I can change my PS3 to HDMI1 (and Xbox360 to HDMI2) ***
    *** So I suppose I should unplug the PS3 optical cable and assign it to HDMI1 (and Xbox360 to HDMI2) ***

    Video Setup/HDMI In Assign - PS3 is already set to HDMI1 (and Xbox360 to HDMI2)
    *** So I assume I change nothing here ***

    Video Setup/Video Convert - All ports are set to "ON".
    ***I don't know what this setting means, but it looked like it might be relevant. ***

    Video Setup/HDMI Out Setup -

    "Analog to HDMI Convert" is set to "ON"
    "Color Space" is set to "YCbCr"
    "RGB Mode" is set to "Normal"
    *** I thought these settings might be relevant to mention ***

    PS3 Settings:

    Firmware Version 2.01

    BD-DVD/Cinema Conversion - "Auto" [there's also an option "Video"]
    BD-DVD/DVD Wide Display - "Letterbox" [there's also an option "Pan and Scan"]
    BD-DVD/DVD Upscaler - "Normal" ["Off" / "Double Scale" / "Full Screen"]
    BD-DVD/BD-DVD Video Output Format (HDMI) - "Y Pb/Cb Pr/Cr" ["Auto" / "RGB"]
    BD-DVD/BD 1080p 24 Hz Output (HDMI) - "Auto" ["Off" / "On"]
    BD-DVD/BD-DVD Audio Output Format (HDMI) - "Bitstream" ["Linear PCM"]
    BD-DVD/BD Audio Output Format (Optical Digital) - "Bitstream" ["Linear PCM"]

    Display/Video Output Settings - "HDMI" ["Component D Terminal" / "Composite S-Video" / AV Multi/Scart]
    *** Max Resolution is set to 1080p with 1080i, 720p, 480p supported ***

    Display/Video Output Settings/Audio Output Settings - "Digital Out (Optical)" ["HDMI" / "Audio Input Connector SCART/AV Multi"]
    *** Currently supported audio is Dolby Digital 5.1 Ch, DTS 5.1 Ch, AAC, Linear PCM 2 Ch 176.4 kHz. Grayed out is Linear PCM 2 Ch 44.1 kHz, Linear PCM 2 Ch 88.2 kHz, Linear PCM 2 Ch 48 kHz. But it lists the grayed options as supported at the end. ***

    *** I suppose I change this to "HDMI" as well ***

    Display/Cross Color Reduction Filter - "Off" ["On"]
    Display/RGB Full Range (HDMI) - "Full" ["Limited"]
    Display/Y Pb/Cb Pr/Cr Super-White (HDMI) - "On" ["Off"]



    After looking at all these settings, I guess I can see why I'm not getting HD audio. I assume to just rip out my optical cables and set every option possible to HDMI, both in my receiver and PS3 settings. But I'm completely naive about the video stuff like 1080p 24Hz Output, bitstream vs Linear PCM, Wide Display, Color Space, RGB, Y Pb/Cb Pr/Cr, Upscaler, etc. I'm pretty sure I got all the necessary info. What settings do I need to change to get the TRUE blu-ray experience. Thanks again edDV and everyone else for helping. Good times.
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  14. Originally Posted by corvette77
    edDV - Here's what I've got:

    TV Model: Panasonic TH-65PX600U
    You should definitely see a difference between DVD and HD DVD on that TV. Unless you're sitting 30 feet away.

    Does your HDTV have a "Display" button that shows what type of signal it's receiving? Be sure the PS3 isn't sending a 480i or 480p signal to the TV. You want to use 1920x1080i/p.

    Note that many games are rendered at less than HD resolutions so you may not see much difference there.
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  15. Member edDV's Avatar
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    Try connecting the PS3 directly to the TV over HDMI and get that working first. The PS3 needs to be set to 1080p. The TV should display what it is receiving. Use HDMI AC3 audio first. Then try the optical out.

    You should be evaluating with a Blu-Ray DVD.

    I suspect the problems are occuring in the audio receiver. Few are HDCP compliant. That may cause the PS3 to force SD resolution.
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    edDV - You lost me. I can hook up my PS3 via HDMI directly to my TV. That's easy enough. But you lost me with that AC3. You told me to try that first before Optical out. Well if my HDMI cable isn't going my receiver, then how can I "NOT" use an Optical out? Nothing would be connected to my receiver, and I'd have no sound at all. Plus if I use my Optical out, then like you and everyone else here has said, I can't get true HD lossless audio.
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  17. He's suggesting you troubleshoot the video first. Solve one thing at a time. Remove as many variables as possible. Don't worry about the audio until you have the video working. HDMI can carry audio so you may get sound from the TV while you're troubleshooting.

    Once you have an HD picture from the PS3 to the HDTV (ie, both devices configured correctly) you can put the reciever back into the equation. It may turn out your receiver doesn't pass through the HDCP encryption handshake and that is what's causing the downscaling of BD content to SD.

    In the final setup you may end up running HDMI directly from the PS3 to the HDTV and optical audio from the PS3 to the receiver. You may have to configure the PS3 to do this. This is how I run my DVD player.
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  18. Member edDV's Avatar
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    What jagabo said. Exactly.

    We are troubleshooting your problem. I suspect the audio receiver. If you can get the direct connection working then we route HDMI through the receiver without changing anything at the PS3 or TV and see what happens. If that works then we try to tap audio out of the HDMI loop. If that doesn't work we use optical.

    BTW, you haven't given us the audio receiver model number.

    At the PS3 you should be able to assign audio to the HDMI connection or optical out. I'm suggesting you first try audio on the HDMI connection to the TV.
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  19. The OP is right, there is no significant noticeable difference between HDDVD and conventional DVD. It's purely marketing to sell you the same movies over and over again because they can't produce anything better to sell you.

    Probably one of the craziest comments made on this site for some time....congratulations!!!
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  20. Video Restorer lordsmurf's Avatar
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    Originally Posted by DRP
    quality of the wiring, cable types used .
    These make a big difference ... for ANY video.

    Length, shielding and the way the signal is transported are all very important.
    These affect video in significant ways.

    I tested the difference between composite, s-video and component on my 55" HDTV, and the differences were very clear. The color noise differences were noticeable. And I was just testing with a homemade DVD recording and a commercial DVD. I plan to buy a cheap and short HDMI cable here soon, to see what else can happen.

    I don't find HD all that special even at 55", but the wiring can make a big difference in what you see, and how clean and clear that image is.
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  21. Member Heywould3's Avatar
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    Originally Posted by lordsmurf

    I don't find HD all that special even at 55", but the wiring can make a big difference in what you see, and how clean and clear that image is.
    Thats funny. there must be something not quite right in your setup. on my 42 tv the difference between SD and HD is night and day. a total transformation of sorts. im judging this off of SD tv vs HD tv and DVD vs HD DVD. i have a 1080p of the band of brothers series and the differnce between that and the SD is nothing less than awsome. i have an up convert dvd player hd dvd player for computer and HD sat. HDMI hookup for sat and dvd RGB for computer to tv.

    the tv is only 1080i or 720p btw.
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    I'm at work again right now, but I'll try hooking the PS3 via HDMI directly into the TV. I assume at this point that I need a Blu-ray and SD DVD of the same movie that displays a night and day difference in HD to test the video. Does anyone have any suggestions as to a good movie for this test?

    Also, can someone tell me what these PS3 video options should be set to:

    BD-DVD/Cinema Conversion - "Auto" [there's also an option "Video"]
    BD-DVD/DVD Wide Display - "Letterbox" [there's also an option "Pan and Scan"]
    BD-DVD/DVD Upscaler - "Normal" ["Off" / "Double Scale" / "Full Screen"]
    BD-DVD/BD-DVD Video Output Format (HDMI) - "Y Pb/Cb Pr/Cr" ["Auto" / "RGB"]
    BD-DVD/BD 1080p 24 Hz Output (HDMI) - "Auto" ["Off" / "On"]
    Display/Cross Color Reduction Filter - "Off" ["On"]
    Display/RGB Full Range (HDMI) - "Full" ["Limited"]
    Display/Y Pb/Cb Pr/Cr Super-White (HDMI) - "On" ["Off"]

    I don't know what any of that means.

    BTW, my receiver is a Denon model# AVI-2307-CI.
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  23. Please keep in mind that this whole discussion started by saying he is comparing a standard dvd upscaled to 1080 as compared to a BlueRay dvd of the same film - an animated feature film. A good upscaling player will give excellent results on a good 1080 TV, and the difference between it and a full high def picture will not be dramatic like it is with standard def tv vs. high def. However - there certainly should be a difference using a feature that takes advantage of the expanded video available on high def.

    I came across this site that provides critical reviews of BlueRay and HD titles. Maybe select a film you like that has very high BlueRay video ratings and compare it against its standard def dvd release played upscaled? The newest Die Hard action film (Live Free or Die Hard) seems to get high video quality ratings in BlueRay according to this site?
    http://www.highdefdigest.com/
    You might also select a good dramatic film, with lots of actor closeups, etc. to compare. Consider "Black Snake Moan"? Another possibility is a film with much outdoor scenery. The BBC "Planet Earth" set is awesome upscaled from standard dvd - so a comparison against the high def release may be interesting. And each of the titles I mentioned get high video ratings on the website indicated above. In any case I'd select BlueRay titles with high video ratings. Of course this can get to be a pretty pricey comparison project given BlueRay disc prices . . .
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  24. Member Krispy Kritter's Avatar
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    From what I've read so far, the video quality of CARS is excellent. So it should work fine for your testing needs.
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    Originally Posted by Heywould3
    Originally Posted by lordsmurf
    I don't find HD all that special even at 55", but the wiring can make a big difference in what you see, and how clean and clear that image is.
    Thats funny. there must be something not quite right in your setup. on my 42 tv the difference between SD and HD is night and day. a total transformation of sorts. im judging this off of SD tv vs HD tv and DVD vs HD DVD. i have a 1080p of the band of brothers series and the differnce between that and the SD is nothing less than awsome. i have an up convert dvd player hd dvd player for computer and HD sat. HDMI hookup for sat and dvd RGB for computer to tv.
    the tv is only 1080i or 720p btw.
    My tv is probably better than yours. That's all it is. My tv looks better with SD sources than some HD sets look with HD sources. It's a Sony A3000 series set, brand new tech, 120Hz, tons of filters for video quality. The only way to see a major difference is to sit 2 feet from the screen. I have 20/15 vision. Sitting on the couch, yes, the HD is a bit sharper than the SD, but it's not like the SD is blurry or even "missing details" necessarily. Sometimes all that the extra sharpness does on HD is show more noise. Smaller noise, but still noise. Thankfully the noise filters remove it (without harming sharpness).

    We're still compressing the hell out of our video signals, be it HD broadcasts or HD discs. Same shit, different format. Unless that changes (and it won't), HD won't be anything special. Framerates could use an increase too, and I'm glad my HDTV has a motion enhancer system in place. This is the biggest advantage of the tv, along with the filters, the extra resolution is secondary.
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  26. Originally Posted by Krispy Kritter
    From what I've read so far, the video quality of CARS is excellent. So it should work fine for your testing needs.
    Yes - you are absolutely correct - but it is excellent in both its standard def dvd and high def dvd versions. My Cars std def dvd looks absolutely terrific when played on my upconverting player in "dot by dot" mode to my Sharp 1080p 46" lcd. I was just suggesting that the details in high quality video live actor, action, outdoor scenery type films might present more of a video challenge than animation and better demonstrate high def vs. upconverted std def.
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    Thanks for everyone that helped. I got really frustrated with trying to set my things up right, so just called Denon. It turned out that all I had to do was do a complete reset of all my settings and program my receiver from scratch and change my PS3 audio output to HDMI. I chose Spiderman 3 to test since it got great video ratings and an epic soundtrack (at least when they fight at the end). Upon looking up close to my TV, I could certainly see increased clarity, though it was nothing to do jumping jacks over. When I sat at my usual distance from the TV, I could tell a really slight difference, but I'd never know it if I wasn't intentionally scanning for it. I found out my receiver actually does not support Dolby TrueHD or any of the other newest codecs, so I can't really comment on that other than I couldn't tell any difference at all with the audio coming out of HDMI instead of optical. Honestly, you could probably show 99% of the population a blu-ray or hd-dvd disc, and they'd think it's just a regular DVD unless you told them. I guess I'm just spoiled with how astronomically better DVD was over VHS. The next "major" jump won't happen until they either go 4D/Surround picture. It won't happen in our lifetimes, but it will happen some day, as silly as it probably sounds.
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  28. Originally Posted by Krispy Kritter
    From what I've read so far, the video quality of CARS is excellent. So it should work fine for your testing needs.
    The SD version of CARS was amazing,too bad the HD version only comes in Blu-Ray.
    I doubt the difference would be that great with animation.
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  29. Member Krispy Kritter's Avatar
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    While the change from VHS to DVD was a vast improvement for everyone, even users with old TV's. The change from DVD to HD (HD-DVD or Blu-Ray) is only of greatest benefit to users with the latest hardware to take advantage of it. For best results you need a TV capable of full 1080 (1920x1080) resolution. Anything less (such as 720p TV's) will be mostly hit or miss and depend more on the quality of the TV and input sources.

    As for audio, the new audio formats function the same as the old formats on regular DVD. You need a DVD player that can perform the decoding or an AVR that can perform the decoding.
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    it might just be that we are not seeing as much of an improvement because there were 2 changes. a better tv and an improved source. take one away and the improvement might be more obvious.

    @LS it sounds like it is the fact that your TV is better than mine. although i think SD looks better on my LCD than on my CRT which other people say look worse so my tv does an ok job at least. on broadcast TV over sat the pictures are dramatticly better in HD like on diccovery SD/HD or animal planet sd/hd in the AM AP has a sound scapes program and the difference is outstanding.

    I understand this is not what the OP was refering to it jsut a comment. i will agree that a upscaled DVD looks almost as good as HD DVD. that is going to be almost imposible to see on any of the movies brought up here though. cars is a cartoon very hard to tell difference. same thing is true for any CGI movie like spiderman. you really need to use a movie like the blue planet or something with scenery like Rich said. its the detail that comes out that you see. like the blades of grass or drops of dew/rain. you would not notice this on other sources becasue it would just look like it wasnt in focus. but with the proper source and images its very obvious.

    I also have 20/15 vision and i sit about 6-8 feet or so from the tv.
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