Betamax - horizontal black lines near white (example within) & other Qs

[PLC401]

Hello,

I've been going through a bunch of old Betamax tapes (from my PAL region) recorded from the 80s and 90s, and while I've encountered general grainy noise and some other more awkward problems, my main concern is this - I've noticed a most prominent odd quirk on just a handful of the tapes: very fine, horizontal black lines on the left-hand inside edge of any white object; these lines flicker and change their position every frame.

I've never encountered this on any VHS tapes, so I'm guessing this is something inherent to Betamax? Whether it is related to the brand of tape, condition of tape, or other factors, I do not know.

Please see below for a still - rather than being from within an actual programme, I've selected a pre-prog slide here, which highlights the problems well:



As you can see, the small white objects - such as the text at the bottom, the logotype in the top left - exhibit this, as well as a some there within the left edge of the planet earth.

But I should also point out - see the horizontal lines of coloured noise across the illuminated buildings? That's again something I'm having trouble with and cannot remove it by even the slightest.

I guess the first question is: for the black lines on the white, and the coloured bands of noise: are either removable by software plugins, and if so, which ones? I'm familiar with both the VDub filter GUI and avisynth scripts too - so if there is a plugin for them that will noticeably lessen or remove either of these problems, if you could point me in the right direction that'd be just great.

If the answer to one (or both) of these problems is 'No, it can't be fixed with plugin filters', then is there a good chance it'd be solved with a TBC?

I must confess: up until now I had never heard of TBCs, let alone looked at the idea of how one might be able to help. But since the majority of the videos I've seen thus far which are not afflicted with these problems actually have nigh on zero dropout, and the grain is removable, even if it can help with the above problems, would it really be worth picking one up, overall?

For example the above picture is of a slide; such slides were broadcast as still images, but on playback of videos generally after removing picture grain, there is the very slight 'wobbling' of the whole image; plus things like occasional (some might say negligible) single-frame flecks of noise that appear, or a grey band temporarily appearing, as if the tracking is 'off' a bit - would a TBC typically sort any of these out?

Crucially then, if a TBC can restore or further improve a picture in ways that software filters simply cannot - if it can achieve a noticeable clarity not possible with any plugins - then maybe it's worth looking at, while I've got the tapes here.


Any help with these questions would be great; and of course I'll try my best to answer anything you need to know as well which I haven't mentioned here. Thanks folks

[lordsmurf]

The VCR heads are worn (can cause streaks).
There are chroma/luma errors on the tape (causes color noise and streaks).
Use s-video cables (can help streaks).

A better VCR would help in many ways, yes. TBC, no ("yes" only if line-TBC inside the VCR). Filters, nope, fix at hardware level prior to digital conversion.

[StuR]

Aparently I've read (VCR repair book) that if noise (lines hear) is all over the picture and not just restricted to an area of the picture it is almost certain to be worn heads. If it's the same on other tapes is even more likely.
Otherwise it could be tracking or the surface if the actual tape has started to decay, have a look if its not all smooth black but has lighter flecks its the tapes, each little flecked bit will cause steaks as lines of info are lost, and poss. cause picture rolling.
Not much you can do other than try tape in other player. Probably need a new player anyway, I actual saw one for sale in N. Wales/Chester area last week in QuidsIn mag, can't imagine there's many in the UK now.

[Marvingj]

I had the same problem in my Betamax vcr , It is the Heads and if you had another player you'll be able to see the difference. Betamax heads are hard to find, so good luck...

[PLC401]

The diagnosis based on the still image was most appreciated! I've ascertained that worn heads is indeed the likely issue here - Playing back old recorded tapes are largely unaffected, but playing back a recording made now in the present day (which I had not done until now) is the real telltale test - sure enough, the symptoms are there.

But before anything else... Is it worth one careful clean (with suitable tools) before throwing anything away to see if things improve? Or, in your estimation are these heads categorically without a doubt beyond that stage? Because if there's any chance a clean would help, I'd probably go for that - at least then I would know I've tried everything with the existing components before waving it goodbye, so to speak.

[Marvingj]

A Good Cleaning can't hurt. But when you can play & not record. It definitely the head. I have 3 Betamax units, Two are in excellent condition the other is excellent but can not record but can play tapes. Could not find a head. And when I found someone to fix it the price was too much. So I used it for parts now. Good Luck.

[Seeker47]

if noise (lines hear) is all over the picture and not just restricted to an area of the picture it is almost certain to be worn heads. If it's the same on other tapes is even more likely.
Otherwise it could be tracking or the surface if the actual tape has started to decay, have a look if its not all smooth black but has lighter flecks its the tapes, each little flecked bit will cause steaks as lines of info are lost, and poss. cause picture rolling.

Agreed that those are the most likely issues. If that slide is a good example, it may be that the problems are much more widespread -- just not so evident in the black or darker areas. The white sections are where it would be most apparent.

[PLC401]

I'll open it up and give them a clean, then, see if that might help things.

It's a 1985 model - perhaps I'd do well to track down a VCR that's more recent if / when I do end up replacing the whole thing...

[Seeker47]

I'll open it up and give them a clean, then, see if that might help things.

It's a 1985 model - perhaps I'd do well to track down a VCR that's more recent if / when I do end up replacing the whole thing...

Haven't brushed up on the chronology of Beta for awhile, but I'm thinking that things were already winding down around '85. Check out this site for more info:
http://www.betainfoguide.com/
In 1991 there was the fabled "15th. Anniversary" top-of-the-line model (SL-HF2100 ), and that was about all she wrote for Beta.

[PLC401]

Turns out I was rounding up to the nearest 5!

Make that 1982 - It's an SLC9.

[StuR]

If I was you I'd chance ebay, or better still you'll eventually find something in loot.com or another local freeads, if there in short supply then they could go pricey on ebay, hence freeads offer less competiton. As long as it works, the cost can be written off as if you've only a few tapes you sell it on in a few months, at a possible profit. If its a local one remember to take a couple of tapes to test on the machine.

[orsetto]

When I started in this hobby back in 1981, I used VHS. After year of trying to achieve decent 2nd generation copies (impossible with VHS then), I turned to Beta, which actually could make excellent copies (i.e. cutting commercials out of the Late Late Show movies). Eventually the mechanical unreliability and repair expense of Beta got to me, so I switched back to VHS in 1985 when Hitachi started making extraordinarily good VHS machines for Minolta- the copies were *better* than Beta, astonishingly good for the time. Of course I still maintained various Betamaxes over the years to keep my existing Beta tapes usable...

ANYWAY, my point, and I do have one , is to recommend the most reliable used Betamax to anyone who may find they need one. Price-performance-reliability-wise, in my experience the best value out there in a Betamax is the front-load hifi Sony SL-HF300. This generally sells for $80-130 in good working condition. Understand that until this model, Sony Beta machines were unbelievably complicated mechanically and failed way too often. After years of doing nothing, Sony finally bowed to the complaints with this model- it has a MUCH simplified and very reliable mechanism, and unless it was abused a second-hand SL-HF300 is a very good choice. It has a good picture, excellent stereo hifi sound, and really good tracking ability with range. They last forever.

Later models are more slick and feature laden, highly coveted, and ridiculously expensive used on eBay. If you need Super-Beta capability you will be forced to go for the expense, but if your tapes are all "regular" Beta HiFi then no need to go beyond the SL-HF300. Only drawback to this unit is its weight- extremely heavy for its small size, truly tank-like build, expect to pay $30 postage if you have it shipped.

[PLC401]

I'm generally only using the machine I have here for playback of mono ones (and capturing to a video file format), for which it largely works well, but the condition of the heads is affecting just a few tapes containing material I wish to keep, and I do want to be able to get the absolute most out of them - once you've transferred a much less than optimal copy, regardless of the type of picture noise, it's hardcoded onto the file and no amount of filtering is going to fix that in the same way.

There is neat feature on this here recorder however, a noise reduction switch to suppress the audio hiss - it's very useful but it seems not a standard feature for the various models, not even prolific - it'd be a pity to lose it as it does a really good job of what I'd otherwise have to do within an audio editor.

[orsetto]

There is neat feature on this here recorder however, a noise reduction switch to suppress the audio hiss - it's very useful but it seems not a standard feature for the various models, not even prolific - it'd be a pity to lose it as it does a really good job of what I'd otherwise have to do within an audio editor.

That IS a nice feature, unusual to find on a mono machine! If forced to use a different Betamax, you don't necessarily have to use an audio editor. You can duplicate this feature by connecting any DJ mixer or audio equalizer you may have or can borrow between the Betamax and your capture device, then just play with the hi-cut controls in real time as you make the transfer. Normally I wouldn't recommend using just any random audio hardware with hifi stereo tapes, but for mono tapes it really can't hurt since there isn't much frequency range to begin with and cutting down hiss is the priority. I recently had a ground loop problem in my cable TV system that caused 60-cycle hum on a number of recordings, so I threw together exactly this type of quickie setup to re-copy them with the hum filtered out.

[PLC401]

If I could ask re: cleaning of the heads (as it hasn't been ruled out as an option?) - for applying the cleaning fluid, are the flat chamois cleaning swabs the only suitable tool? Or does anyone know of other materials that can be used which are just as suited to the job?

[Scooter_NJ]

Chamois or any soft swab that will NOT leave any lint/debris behind. You can try to see if any of the wet systems by AllSop or others still are available. I use to use liquid freon to clean my heads. It was GREAT!!!

Another thing you can do is take a high grade cassette and put in your player, press play and shuttle back and forth a few times. That seomties does the trick.

I have a few Beta's here and use them to this day. LOVE the Beta 1S format. It rocks.!!!

Good luck

[PLC401]

Well, cleaning didn't appear to significantly improve the couple of tapes with the visible streaks, or any video recorded on the machine thereafter (as expected) but the tests were interesting.

I did one recording earlier which appeared pretty clean of any streaks, another thereafter on the same tape which seemingly didn't fare so well, and then on a couple of other tapes a variance of quality which was at least in part attributed to the tapes themselves; for example I can't still be 100% sure that the bands of colour in the example are linked to the heads; from memory on 2 out of 4 recent recordings it was noticeable, rather than all or none...

There's also the factor of these tapes being from various people and sources (not originally recorded on the VCR I have here) - could it be that the few old 'streaky' tapes were recorded on machines with worn heads, hence why they are the only old videos of footage being affected on play?

However, the situation is still that on playback, almost all older tapes of material which were recorded on other machines look honestly fine - and it seems a waste to get rid of a player if it appears to be doing pretty fine at just playing said old batch, which is what I'm using it for, after all.

If someone believes this isn't the case and the worn heads do have a significant detrimental effect on all old tapes from other good machines anyway, then please explain, as to my eyes I've gotten some pretty nice pictures out of some of the tapes I've viewed, including a few which genuinely surprised me at how clean they looked.


The goal is to find all the old footage of interest, then transfer it to computer with the best possible picture - this includes the Beta tapes I have here (I estimate there are currently at least 150 here to get through, and acquisition of these is ongoing in a sense) and a good number of VHS tapes stored away too.

Specific niggles aside for a mo, as far as getting the most out of the picture goes:

I was under the impression then, that a TBC would improve picture stability (sorting iffy / lossy frames and judder, reducing the 'squirrely' slight left-right wobble noticeable on still images) and thus give a better output than I could otherwise achieve? If that's true, it would still be necessary for optimization and a must for this task; but then there's also the element of visual improvement as opposed to fixing, particularly getting a crisp detailed picture.

I am however not willing to take a stab in the dark when it comes to actually purchasing anything (I'm too scared to make such decisions!), so I could really do with some assistance - the main 2 questions from here:

- Should I attempt to purchase a replacement Beta VCR, even though my existing model is still playing back the vast amount of old material without any problems, and only 2 or 3 tapes are problematic there?

- Is there a TBC and image enhancer (respectively) that you would recommend for optimization ahead of making captures? Bear in mind that I am dealing with both PAL Betamax and VHS too, not just one or the other.


This could take a while, but the last thing I want to do is start making reasonable captures right now when I'm still not getting the most out of tapes - I just need a bit of guidance, but I'm sure I'll get there eventually(!)

[Scooter_NJ]

Maybe you have a tracking issue. Try adjusting that. Also, before playing any old tape, fast forward and rewind it before hitting the play button.

For the record, I have the Anniversary Beta 2100...WAY cool machine, even to this day!

[CODEWERKX]

in addition to cleaning the heads...look to the left and right of the tape path....there is usually some vertical pins that hold and align the tape....clean those by hand usuing the appropriate methods. the pins affect the tracking. been awhile. but i still use my beta for off the satellite recording.

[Scooter_NJ]

Codewekx: For C-Band or Dish/DirecTV recording? I still use my C-Band on occasion and use the 2100 for taping.

[PLC401]

Can anyone at all help me with the couple of queries in my previous post?

I have vowed not to consider getting equipment or replacement players of any sort until I have had recommendations, but I am eager to start getting video transfers underway by the new year, and so don't want to leave it too late to start. Any help is welcome.

[Scooter_NJ]

Was the original material recorded in Beta1S/Super Beta modes? If so, playing back on a non Super Beta machine would cause that kind of streak.

[PLC401]

Regular, Non-Super Betas I'm dealing with here, for sure. I think I've ascertained the heads are problematic for making recordings on this machine, but thus far there is no proof that it's affecting the actual play of oldie vids in any wide or significant way, if my trawls through the archive of tapes is anything to go by.

As I have said, playback of old footage taped on other machines is what I am using it for, and that is largely fine - I can have a mound of old tapes and 99% of them will play without any picture streaks - such is the reason I am hesistant to get rid of it and have to fork out for another one that may be of no significant improvement.

As picture streaks as in the example has been ruled out as fixable and is in the minority of tapes, I'd like to concentrate on the things that affect most or every tape and are likely to be fixable which my last question touched upon - such as slight squirrely picture wobble as evident on still images, and picture dropout / other momentary bits of noticeably poor signal, along with trying to restore a bit of detail on 'softer' recordings.

Hence why I've enquired about additional hardware, and what kit specifically would work best to improve these more standard issues across the majority, the tapes I have here awaiting transfer - so I can weigh up the options based on good advice, and know what models of kit do the job well on the formats, instead of blinding in and having no idea what to go for. I ought to again stress this will be for both Beta and VHS too.

[Seeker47]

As picture streaks as in the example has been ruled out as fixable and is in the minority of tapes, I'd like to concentrate on the things that affect most or every tape and are likely to be fixable which my last question touched upon - such as slight squirrely picture wobble as evident on still images, and picture dropout / other momentary bits of noticeably poor signal, along with trying to restore a bit of detail on 'softer' recordings.

Hence why I've enquired about additional hardware, and what kit specifically would work best to improve these more standard issues across the majority, the tapes I have here awaiting transfer - so I can weigh up the options based on good advice, and know what models of kit do the job well on the formats, instead of blinding in and having no idea what to go for. I ought to again stress this will be for both Beta and VHS too.

Picture dropouts: I'd guess you've lost some oxide from some of these old tapes. I've seen this before, and it is pretty common. If that is the case, not much you can do about it.
Picture wobble: If the tape itself has not stretched (which can happen), my guess would be some issue with the tape transport of the deck, which is curable by well-qualifed servicing (at some cost, of course), if you have access to it. I have some clear transport issues on at least one Beta deck, but they are not the same problems as you describe.
So far, I don't see where you've mentioned anything that is clearly amenable to solution by some additional gear, such as a TBC or video processor.

[PLC401]

Picture wobble: If the tape itself has not stretched (which can happen), my guess would be some issue with the tape transport of the deck, which is curable by well-qualifed servicing (at some cost, of course), if you have access to it. I have some clear transport issues on at least one Beta deck, but they are not the same problems as you describe.
So far, I don't see where you've mentioned anything that is clearly amenable to solution by some additional gear, such as a TBC or video processor.

Strange, as I'm sure I saw a Before/After vid example in a topic here of that slight wobble (albeit hardly noticeable on moving images) being fixable.

So, are you saying there is no way any additional hardware will benefit any of my hundereds tapes, at all? Even kit designed to enhance the picture, are you stating that doesn't work? I find that hard to believe, otherwise I'd expect a lot more people to refuse to defend the benefits of such equipment in the first place.

If you can tell me straight-up that I won't get any more out of my tapes even if I use a TBC or picture enhancer (and that they are effectively useless at doing anything to improve picture), I'll leave it.

I did get the feeling they would help in at least some way; isn't that what these things are supposed to do?

[Seeker47]

[
So, are you saying there is no way any additional hardware will benefit any of my hundereds tapes, at all? Even kit designed to enhance the picture, are you stating that doesn't work? I find that hard to believe, otherwise I'd expect a lot more people to refuse to defend the benefits of such equipment in the first place.

If you can tell me straight-up that I won't get any more out of my tapes even if I use a TBC or picture enhancer (and that they are effectively useless at doing anything to improve picture), I'll leave it.

I did get the feeling they would help in at least some way; isn't that what these things are supposed to do?

Well, I'm certainly no authority on this subject, so my opinion will only take you so far. (If you are looking for an authoritative answer, I'd take this up with GShelley61, edDV, or someone with that sort of background.) I just happen to have a couple of good Beta decks, and have used a TBC-1000 on occasion. .

If you've read into some of the lengthy threads here on TBCs , Proc. Amps, and the like, you've seen that there are a number of problems these devices can address. (And, if you get into the realm of ultra-expensive pro gear, such as editing suites or production houses would have access to, I wouldn't place any bets on what they could or could not do.) It's just that I -- within the modest limits of what I've seen or what I know -- don't find the particular issues you mentioned as falling into the category of what TBCs or non-exotic video processors are likely to do. I could be wrong, though, or might not have correctly apprehended your description of these problems.

[PLC401]

Yes, I see; that's alright.

The ultimate goal here is primarily general improvement of the picture stability across VHS and Beta tapes in ways which are not possible with software filters - I've seen some very good footage offset by a slight judder or other momentary blip in signal quality and thought that, if it was possible to remove or lessen it, I'd take that option - and only then once it is optimized should I make the transfer, thus pretty much futureproofing the copies quality-wise because I will have gotten the best out of them.

Ultimately there is no specific massive problem across numerous tapes I want removed, I am simply looking for general improvement or optimization for these hundreds of tapes.

Secondarily then, is actual enhancement of the picture, particularly detail-wise - if this can categorically be done better with specialized hardware than it can with software, that's worth me considering.

If anyone with the sheer knowledge would like to step forward on this, and either suggest some external devices to deal with both the formats, or if necessary ask a question / make a comment before anything else, that'd be just fine.

[PLC401]

It's been almost a fortnight since I asked about equipment recommendations, having some time ago solved the picture noise issue - I'm sure someone here has enough knowledge of models that work well and such, so if I can clarify:

TBC

Image Enhancer / Detailer (unless someone wishes to make a case for this being a useless addition!)

for PAL format VHS and Betamax tapes

Budget limit is around £350 GBP - what makes are in this range if any? (If none price-wise, then please list the closest suitable)

I ideally want to crack on with this transfer project and general across-tapes cleanup, starting this first month of the new year - and as such would really appreciate a prompt reply now from someone who just has a mere minute or two to spare to list some good quality options for the task that match my format sources.

Cheers very much; I shall extend a large thankyou to whoever offers a good solution.

[2Bdecided]

Isn't there a thread nearby (sure I read it late last year) that shows the issue with Line-TBCs is the time constant of their recovery. Some (like the DataVideo one IIRC) have a relatively slow time constant, and can't react to the fast errors found on a tape with localised physical damage. Others (like some apparently found in Digital8 camcorders with analogue inputs - quite rare in Europe due to extra tax on recorders) work very well with such errors.

(This is from a great thread somewhere comparing various TBCs - search for TBC to find it I guess)

You can try a TBC in the player, or the capturing device, or one in between. I, like you, am in the UK, and find a lot of the USA-NTSC advice on here interesting, but almost useless. I intend to learn by experimenting. I have a (cheap) Panasonic S-VHS VCR with switchable TBC built-in, an even cheaper JVC machine without, a DV camcorder with analogue line-in, and an ADVC-110 on order. If I find anything interesting, I will report back.

My initial results going straight into a Sony DVD recorder were terrible (wobbly lines with TBC, dropped frames with TBC!). Results with a Panasonic DVD recorder were better. The (slow) software NR was miles better than anything I've seen from hardware, so I will capture to DV-AVI, not MPEG-2, initially.


Finally, I've never heard anyone mention putting the chroma back in the right place. I don't know about Betamax or NTSC, but PAL VHS (and S-VHS) pushes the chroma down one line per field per generation. So a copy of a camcorder tape needs the chroma pushing up 2 lines per field (4 lines per frame) just to put it back where it started. It usually needs pushing left a pixel or so to (partly) correct the inevitable colour bleed. It's well worth doing. If you can kill the wobble with a TBC, hide the last few dodgy head-switching lines, push the chroma back into place, and remove the noise carefully, you can get something that looks like it was recorded yesterday. It's not DVD quality, but it's as good as, or better than, a direct feed from the original camcorder. On YouTube (320x240) or Facebook (606x455!) it'll look as good as miniDV recorded yesterday.

Cheers,
David.

[PLC401]

I've got things like chroma shift and grain removal covered, via software - so really that's not a problem.

I'm just looking for someone who is from a PAL area and who's had experience with this sort of hardware to suggest an external, full frame TBC and optional detail enhancer to go between the existing VCR and computer setup.

*If* the experts here are predominantly NTSC folks, then perhaps someone should direct me to a PAL-heavy community to get this sorted; otherwise if the knowledgeable PAL region guys could help me out here. Because model-wise, in terms of performance and compatibility I haven't got the slightest clue what one to go for - this is what I need assistance with, to find the right model.