Having Trouble with DIY Telecine (8mm) System

[wadiigo]

boffee... would you post a photo of the location, method of attachment, etc.. of the hall effect switch? Thank you in advance.

[boffee]

wadiigo, I cant take any credit for the hall effect switch, if you look on page 6 of this thread post #180 by nick_s, you will see a very clear pic of how and where it is attached. I merely copied this, gluing a small magnet obtained from e-bay onto the arm. I then wired the small circuit board back to a small socket on the rear of the projector, one of those round sockets made for s-video. However when I removed the shutter blades I was having timing problems . I understand from Nick_s that he uses a microprocessor to process his mouse captures so his is way beyond me in sophistication. However I changed the value of a capacitor in Frank's cine2digits circuit yet again and with my capture program, I am now getting a rock steady avi. At last looks like I may have success.

[wadiigo]

Have a look at this: http://vimeo.com/31348592 you won't be disappointed. The attached photos are the boxed version.

I met someone that put this together and he gave me permission post this. I think its brilliant.


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[brouvery]

All
First of all thank you. I'm starting to think about doing the transfer of my 8mm myself and this forum is full of good information
I found a website where they sell a small camera that you insert instead of the lens on the projector.
What to you think about this ?

http://www.easy-transfert.com/product.php?id_product=21

Thanks
Benoit

[ronypony]

Hi Benoit

The camera is only 1 CCD (Charge Coupling Device)...this means only one chip handles all three primary colours.Now you may be able to get some half decent results with such a low quality camera but in these days of High Definition I think you may be somewhat disappointed.I use a 3CCD video camera for my own transfers...an upgrade from my old 1 CCD sony cam.While it is not HD the quality is far superior to the 1 CCD camcorder I used to use.I think this camera you are considering is very expensive for what it is.

Regards

Mike

[brouvery]

Thanks Mike
What about the concept itself of having a camera mounted instead of the lens ?
I will look at a 3CCD for it

[boobootrasher]

Hi mike, I totally agree with what you have just said. I’m ready to show you guys what my setup has given me, though I’ve been so busy this last year. I will post a video on my youtube channel of my setup and results within the next week I hope.

[wrathofbod]

im looking at building a new rig, at the moment im using this set up-dont laugh at my vid.lol http://youtu.be/Pc-zhILQcoY
cost me next to nothing to do & getting great results, next thing im gonna try is using part of the screen from a broken rear projection tv if i can find one to replace the screen on the box..

but when i get the time & money i will have ago at the build with a lense i hope

[boobootrasher]

hi. My intention was to show everybody on here my setup and how I did this. After all it’s the fun part. Give me a couple of days and I will show you my full set up video and description.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HORHwYoDwY4&list=UUJr3JSfrK9CaP16nMUb4bmw&index=1&featu...p&noredirect=1

[boobootrasher]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-Jkx-92HuhM

[boffee]

Very good, boobootrasher, however I am trying to do the same thing without the condensor lens, ie shooting off the gate, however not having much luck, I have purchased a CCTV camera from Maplins without the lens and a set of C-mount extension tubes but just can't seem to figure out what would be the focal length of the lens I would need to focus on the Super 8mm frame when the gate is 50mm from the front of the projector which is the nearest I would be able to get get with the lens on the front of the camera. Has anyone done this or know how to do the calculations? The French web site www.easy-transfert.com has photos of a projector with such an arrangement, so it must be possible. I have tried focal lengths of 75mm and a 25mm but does not work.

[boffee]

I thought I would post an update to my previous post. I have purchased a C mount enlarger lens called a 50mm schneider componon, and that would appear to be the answer. I then feed the resulting AVI file from my CCTV camera via a video grabber into one of the AVIsynth film restoring scripts by Video Fred (http://forum.doom9.org/showthread.php?t=144271) and the results are I think quite acceptable.

[coneybear]

I know I'm a bit of a 'Johny Come Lately' but I'm interested in starting a telecine project and this blog looks like the definitive "how-to" guide.

But when I go to the very first post to read all the great info from the beginning I find that the link is broken!!

Can anyone help with telling me where I can find the initial info that was located here: http://homepage.mac.com/onsuper8/diytelecine/

Cheers
DC

[davemound]

Hi
I'm Dave, yet another 'Johnny Come Lately', although I've been browsing this
and numerous other related sites for a while, and I'm fairly well advanced
with my DIY telecine project.
So while I can't answer your question directly, coneybear, I can point you in
the direction of a couple of places I got my inspiration from...
Retro Telecine - http://telecine.godiskind.com/
Cine2Digits - http://www.cine2digits.co.uk/
and... Construction of a home made Telecine machine -
http://www.movie2video.com/
My system uses a modified Eumig 510 projector. I removed the original motor
and mains transformer, and instead installed a 12V DC motor with a small
variable speed drive card, both bought off ebay for around a tenner (GBP)
each. A 12V DC, 5A laptop PSU (again off ebay) powers the setup. As the 510
is belt driven this was quite easy to achieve, my only real issue being that
owing to the gearbox that came attached to the new motor, I achieve a max
speed of around 1½ frames per second...but I can live with that for now...
The projector lamp has been replaced by a Luxeon RGB LED, and I've used an El
Nikor 50mm enlarger lens mounted in plastic tubes (drain pipes)....so nothing
original there. For triggering the modified USB mouse, I've used a magnetic
switch (actually a burglar alarm door proximity switch) and a tiny neodymium
magnet. Works a treat.
I started out with a dismantled Creative Webcam Pro, and achieved reasonable
results, but more recently (in my quest for improved quality) have modified a
Microsoft Lifecam Studio....and this is where I've become a little unstuck,
so here I am seeking advice.
I realise you can't get Cinecap anymore so I was happily using Stop Frame
Animator. I'm not even sure Cinecap supports video resolutions higher than
640 x 480, but Stop Frame Animator certainly doesn't.
I almost get good results using the snapshot feature of the Microsoft Lifecam
Studio software, but unfortunately it occasionally seems to take an age to
complete the snapshot process - understandable perhaps, as it has to play out
a silly wav file of a camera shutter click, then dispay a thumbnail of the
frame just captured, as well as the important bit - saving the picture to
HDD. Even with the 'telecine' running at just 1 frame persecond, sometimes
this sequence of events is taking too long and the film has moved on too
quickly for it.
So my question. Can anyone recommend either a decent (free?? ) stop motion
animation software that will accept a HD video input, or alternatively - a
decent single frame capture program that isn't slowed down by unnecessary
sound effects/thumbnail display etc, and will respond reliably to multiple
mouse clicks at the rate of at least 1½ per second?
(Note - as long as all the individual images are saved to HDD, then it's an
easy matter to have Windows rename them to a numerical sequence, which
Virtualdub will happily load and convert to an avi file.)
Any suggestions greatly appreciated.
Cheers
Dave

[Sierra Mike]

Hi Dave,

I too have just recently found this topic and it has some great information.

As a possible alternative to Cinecap, have you tried http://w3.capturix.com/default.asp?product=vcap

I haven't use it myself, but found it mentioned on another forum.

Coneybear, if your still around try the following. However reading this topic will probable give you more info then the old website will.

http://web.archive.org/web/20070819042205/http://homepage.mac.com/onsuper8/diytelecine/setup.html

Good luck

[boffee]

As an alternative to cinecap, I have successfully used stopmotion station

http://www.freedownloadsplace.com/StopMotion-Station-1.3-Download-10762.htm.

It is not free however but a time limited demo and costs $50 usd from Canada. It uses the keyboard to work it, so i use the on screen keybooard on Windows 7 and position the mouse on the enter key . It works well and produces a series of jpegs which can be turned into an avi using Virtualdub. I use it at 3fps and it seems to keep up very well at that speed. There are very good help files with it and even a you tube demonstration by the author.

[davemound]

Thanks, guys for both of these suggestions. As soon as I'm back from hols I'm going to try them both.

Will report back!

Cheers

Dave

[boobootrasher]

Hi, not checked in on the forum for a while but it’s always nice to see it kick off again with fresh blood... Ideas are always welcome.

[jorler]

Hi

Davemound, I am curious about how you modified the webcam and the lens etc to get clear picture. I have been toying with the idea of using a HD webcam as well.

As a side, I am currently using a plano-convex lens and a panasonic 3ccd miniDV video camera, and I am not entirely happy with the picture quality.

I recently found a few examples of where the video camera is pointing almost directly into the projector, through a tube which has some sort of lens inside. Has anyone done this who would care to share with us how it is done?
I have attached a picture of the type of setup I am referring to.

Thanks
Clive

[boffee]

Try these descriptions of two home made telecine machines:-


http://www.southdownsfilmmakers.org.uk/index_htm_files/A%20Home%20Built%20Telecine%20Machine%202.pdf

[jorler]

Hi

Boffee thanks for the reply. Nice link. Seems like they totally removed the camera lens in that setup.

I found an interesting site at
http://8mmhd.blogspot.com/

He uses a 63.5 mm achromatic doublet lens. I am not exactly sure how it is all put together, as it seems there is a spacer tube also. I am also wondering if the camera lens is still used.

Making some progress

cheers
Clive

[davemound]

Hi Jorler
Here's a pic of my lens setup.
If you google 'modify Microsoft Lifecam Studio' you'll find
someone has already done this for an astronomy application. I
followed the proceedure and found it pretty straightforward -
basically you're removing the webcam's flexible mount and its
original lens, then disabling the autofocus system, and
re-routing its cable out of the rear, before putting it all back
together. In addition I addded a small piece of aluminium
plate, secured with a couple of 'Taptite'screws through the
black plastic end cap into very carefully chosen points in the
plastic 'chassis'of the camera. This was to become part of my
fine focussing mechanism, which you can see in the pic.
This is the point where it all becomes pretty 'Heath Robinson'.
By chance, the Lifecam Studio (minus its stand, and with its
cable now emerging from the back end) wrapped in about two turns
of duct tape, squeezes tightly into an old black plastic 35mm
film canister with its end cut off. That, in turn, squeezes
nice and tightly into a length of 32mm plumbing pipe, which
itself is then wrapped in one layer of sticky-backed acrylic
'felt', and inserts quite snugly into a short length of 40mm
plumbing pipe. Snugly, but not too tight this time, so that it
can 'telescope' in and out quite smoothly without wobbling about
from side to side.
I managed to find an El Nikor 50mm enlarger lens on ebay for
about £15 quid. Again, by chance, and with a bit of
determination, 40mm plastic plumbing pipe could be persuaded to
screw onto the back thread of the lens. Not only that, but with
even greater determination, I discovered that some 32mm tube
could be screwed into the internal thread at the front of the
lens. Unfortunately, 32mm tube was slightly too large to fit
into the projector's original lens holder, but it just so
happened that one of Ikea's black plastic kitchen unit legs (cut
down) starts at the correct diameter, and tapers down slightly.
The screw-in, height-adjustable 'foot' made an excellent
internal sleeve to ensure the join held square. The whole
assembly could then be inserted into the front of the projector,
right up to the film gate, in place of the original lens.
I used the Midas lens calculator to determine the various
lengths required - film plane to lens, and lens to camera
sensor, and had a friend with a lathe cut the appropriate
lengths of plastic tube, ensuring square ends.
One thing I might add - here in UK, there are two types of
plastic tubing commonly sold in plumbers merchants...one for
glue fixing, and another for push-on compression fixing.
Although nominally the same size, they're actually slightly
different. I bought metre lengths of each type, in both 32mm
and 40mm, and experimented...
Hope this not all too confusing...

[davemound]

Hi Sierra Mike and Boffee
Apologies for not reporting back sooner...I tried your suggestions, but found them still not reliable enough for my setup...I'll put that down to my computer being probably not quite up to the task.
However, something I chanced upon called Debut Video Capture is working perfectly, even in its very restricted 'free' mode! I'd thoroughly recommend it!

[jorler]

Davemound, I like your setup.

Thanks for posting it.!

How are the results like?

regards
Clive

[boffee]

Hi Jorler, just to be clear, in the link I posted http://www.southdownsfilmmakers.org.uk/index_htm_files/A%20Home%20Built%20Telecine%20Machine%202.pdf

I think the author meant he removed the projector lens, I don't think it would be possible to remove a camcorder lens

[davemound]

Hi Jorler
Actually, I'm quite astounded by the results so far, they've way exceeded my expectations!
I've got one or two small issues...for instance I've possibly enlarged the gate a little too much, meaning the film can slew from side to side slightly more than I'd like, and although for the most part it remains stable, this tends to happen when a splice goes through, and it can be half a dozen frames or so before it settles in one plane again. So at some stage I'll look at contriving some sort of guide for the film, a bit like tape guides on a reel to reel tape machine.
That said, the Deshaker filter in Virtualdub has worked wonders for overcoming this problem...
Cheers
Dave

[Leshka71]

Hi Sierra Mike and Boffee
Apologies for not reporting back sooner...I tried your suggestions, but found them still not reliable enough for my setup...I'll put that down to my computer being probably not quite up to the task.
However, something I chanced upon called Debut Video Capture is working perfectly, even in its very restricted 'free' mode! I'd thoroughly recommend it!

Hi Davemound,

I was able to find a copy of CineCap on internet. PM me for link if you are interested.

P.S. Would love to see some pix from your capture.

[davemound]

Hi Leshka71
PM on its way to you...

Here's a few frames from some old Standard 8 stuff taken by my father in (as far as we can work out) the mid to late 1930s...certainly pre-WW2. This is a snippet from the raw capture - it doesn't take very many frames to reach the 100MB upload limit!
You'll see the film jumps around a bit, as I mentioned above, although it's nothing that Virtualdub's Deshaker can't sort out.
I'm not sure what the camera was, but what you see here is as sharp as the original film gets.

[jorler]

Hi Dave

Very impressed with your capture.
Out of interest, if you wanted to fill the more of the frame of your capture and have smaller borders, (ie to enlarge the image slightly on your webcam chip) is that easily done, or is that a limitation of your 50mm enlarger lens?

Thanks and regards
Clive

[davemound]

Hi Clive

Thanks for the compliment!

I think with slight alterations to the lengths of my plastic tubes (ie changing object to lens and lens to image) it might be possible to get a very slightly bigger image, but not much. If I remember correctly from my early experiments, I'm pretty close to the optimum image size for this lens/camera sensor setup. That said, the Microsoft Lifecam Studio is a widescreen camera, capable of creating images 1920 pixels wide by 1080 pixels high. Here I'm setting it to capture at a reduced resolution of 1280 x 720 (but still the 16:9 aspect ratio) as above this my computer isn't really up to the task, and having deliberately enlarged the gate, I wanted to see a small part of the frame above and the frame below to be sure that subsequent stabilising, resizing and cropping could be optimised.

Standard 8 film is not widescreen (obviously) so here the constraining factor on the captured image size is the height, not the width, and ultimately it becomes a compromise...Super 8 (lots of it, which I still haven't got round to doing yet...!) is a larger frame size, and if I've got my sums right, should still (just) fit the capture frame, with only a tiny bit to spare.

So to answer your question, with my setup, the image size on the sensor is fixed, and could only be altered by making another set of spacer tubes. If I was to do this, I'd get another webcam and lens, and make a second complete lens/camera setup, interchangable with the original.
Cheers

Dave