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  1. Is the HD DVD and BlueRay as big a mess as DVD R is, was, has been??

    I want to do some larger movie series on 1 disk, say Tremors 1-4. I also want to back up tons of music files and other data.

    So it's almost always been a problem figuring out which disks work or don't for DVD R and DVD DL, and it's still a guessing game when you go to buy disks.

    So is this the same for the new formats?

    What's the costs for the disks, the costs for the burners and players?

    I'm interested in large storage, working disks, low prices. Don't really care about the format, and quality will still be DVD for me, I want 3-6 movies on one disk and reliable data storage.

    VHS won over Beta because it was lower cost. Neither -R nor +R won because Dual burners came out and nearly all DVD players play either.

    A burner or player is like a one time expense for awhile, so like a printer it's not the cost of the device to look at, it's the quality of the output and the cost of the refills!
    So which works best and costs less?
    Also is the software out there to use them?? Authoring/editing programs and such?

    From my perspective, it costs a bit less than $4 for 4 disks and cases for DVD R 4.7gigs and that means say a 20gig disk would be worth about $4 to me. For a bit of convience in not have to look for and change 4 disks a 20gig disk might be worth $5 to me.
    A 15gig disk worth about $3 to me.

    Anything reliable in that price range yet.
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  2. I'm a MEGA Super Moderator Baldrick's Avatar
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    I would wait some months. You wont find any hd-dvd and blu-ray discs for $5 yet, 50GB blu-ray = $30, 25 GB blu-ray = $10. And the cheapest blu-ray writer costs around $400. I don't know much about hd-dvd burners, I think only toshiba has one or two HD-DVD burners released.
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  3. Member oldandinthe way's Avatar
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    Early burner buyers usually get inferior equipment and should replace when burners reach commodity prices. The high prices paid by early buyers usually makes them unwilling to give up their "prototype" equipment. So it really isn't a one-time expense.

    As to your problems choosing media for existing equipment. If your drive is not one of those I identify as "media tolerant" - that burn to completion with just about any media - buy TY or Verbatim and ignore all the bargain prices on everything else. No hassle to be had, just potential higher cost and inconvenience.

    If you want to buy media without concern for who makes it, buy a drive that gives you a shot at that, in my experience LG or Samsung. You still may not be free of concern because your players may dislike certain brands of media.

    As for DVD+R/DL, I have only succeeded in video player compatibility with Verbatim.

    If you want large storage, consider one of the hard disk based media players or an enclosure which allows you to add your own hard disk. Cost is below a HD dvd burner and you can continue to use it after you buy a lower priced HD dvd burner.

    I have no personal experience with Blueray or HD-DVD writeable media, but the history of recordable optical media has been one of wide variation in quality and reliability of differing brands. If it is any easier to select a brand it may be due to limited choices. And this will likely change when there is a market for the media - there really isn't yet.
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  4. Thanks.
    I'll not be buying the Blue ray stuff at those prices then.


    oldandinthe way

    I know what you mean, I still have my $200 2X burner, use it as a reader but seldom burn disks with it anymore.

    I never really had much trouble with media myself, but others do! I used Ritek when the disks used to be good and pretty reliable, and I use mostly only TY now. As for DL I never use it myself, too many horror stories, high cost, 1 brand that people say works and I don't like the products much.

    I use Hard disk storage, but many obvious problems with that. 1 is once the drive is full it's full. 2 is drives fail for many reasons so not really safe to rely on them. Storage of extra drives when not in use. I'd rather have 200 disks labeled and stored nicely than 50 drives
    Right now I want to back up 200 gigs from a 300gig drive I am using. Really hate to buy another 300gig drive just for storage. And either or both could fail anytime.
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  5. Member Krispy Kritter's Avatar
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    With the price of HDD's, this is a no brainer, at least for me. A 320GB drive will run you about $90 (500GB are going for $100 on sale) and an internal (or external) case will run you $25-50. So for about $125, you could backup the entire HDD, not just part of it. The odds of failure aren't that high, but that's why you make a backup. If you are paranoid, you could create 2 backups (which gives you 3 copies of the data) and still would almost half the cost of the just the Blu-Ray burner. Plus the cost of discs...for 200GB you will be using 8+ discs and if you are worried about failures you will need 2 copies of each.
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    SD will be around for quite some time to come because of this and other factors. Why waste your time with this immature technology now?
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  7. I'd rather have 200 disks labeled and stored nicely than 50 drives
    I don't know where you get your math from but Hard Drives are the way to go for storage than any optical media save maybe HVD. Maximum capacity of blu-ray is 50 GB for dual layer. You can purchase a 500 GB HD for approximately $120. You need 10 dual layer blu-ray discs or 20 single layer discs to equal the capacity of one 500 GB HD. Newegg has Verbatim single layer (25GB) blu-ray discs for $10.99. 500 GB capacity would cost you $219. For that price you could get 2 500GB drives. That also assume you don't burn any coasters in the process.

    If you are concerned about HD failure than I would suggest a RAID system.

    In terms of cost and being practical, a HD storage solution would be the better way to go.
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  8. Member oldandinthe way's Avatar
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    Yes hard disks fail. But an idle hard disk on a shelf is less likely to fail than an idle optical disk. I am not suggesting you keep your backup drives spinning. There's no historical data on long term reliability of the HD r/w media, but for 40 years r/w optical media has been less reliable than magnetic media (obviously comparing products of the same time frame). Many large data centers and server farms continue to backup on magnetic tape - having rejected optical media alternatives.

    I'm rather fond of 2.5" drives which fit neatly in a 3"x5"x.5" enclosure. And indeed some of the media player enclosures are this size.

    Hard disks do get full. But they are read/write rather than write once. And even an external USB hard disk will be faster to write to than either HD optical format. I think big backups will get wearisome with either type of solution.

    We have reached a point in time when HDDs are so cheap that I seem to be drowning in them (I carry 3 drives in my laptop case), but I truly have a flood of DVDs and CDs which preceded them. and each of my systems has a backup clone of the system drive - either in the chassis or external.

    Every drive I remove from a system seems to make it into an external case.
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  9. Member edDV's Avatar
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    There is a gaping hole in the market for high capacity optical (or other technology) storage.

    HDD is cheap but has issues.
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  10. Member oldandinthe way's Avatar
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    edDV

    HDD has no NEW issues. It has been a reliable means of storage for many years. Prices have come down to the point where a HDD can be seriously considered as removeable storage.

    Increasingly it is being used as a distribution medium for specialized multimedia content. Sort of an un-iTunes - where a library of content is being sold. It will be interesting to see if this early trend becomes mainstream.

    The elapsed time between failures of a drive which is only occaisionally powered on might approach infinity given the MTBF of today's drives.
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  11. Member edDV's Avatar
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    Originally Posted by oldandinthe way
    edDV

    HDD has no NEW issues. It has been a reliable means of storage for many years. Prices have come down to the point where a HDD can be seriously considered as removeable storage.

    Increasingly it is being used as a distribution medium for specialized multimedia content. Sort of an un-iTunes - where a library of content is being sold. It will be interesting to see if this early trend becomes mainstream.

    The elapsed time between failures of a drive which is only occaisionally powered on might approach infinity given the MTBF of today's drives.
    I don't disagree and have been forced to use HDD for my project backups because optical storage has not kept up with capacity needs and HD/BD optical media is obscenely priced (e.g. $15-20 for 25GB blanks). 100GB BluRay 4 layer blanks even seem useless in a world of $90 500GB hard drives. For security one needs to back projects to two separate hard drives.
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  12. Member oldandinthe way's Avatar
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    If I were creating archival backups to optical media, I'd want two or three copies. Relying on a single copy always carries risks.

    My audio jukebox exists on two hard disks, because recreating it would take weeks. It may in fact be copied to a third because I find I am using the backup on another of my systems.

    I hate to think about the time it would take to restore an image from CD or DVD. Certainly shorter than reuilding from audio CDs but still unattractive.

    I guess one of the risks of HDD backup is the convenience it offers, which may keep it from sitting idle on the shelf.
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  13. Well since the prices of Blueray or HD DVD is still too high for me I will use Hard drives if I can save this data on a failing drive now. Since I wanted larger storage also for DVD type content to watch movies and such I would not really figure the cost of the burner as part of backup costs if I got one, I want it anyway to put 4 movies on one disk often or other similair things to actually use. So I would only really figure cost of disks for backups, not burner or player, but still to high! And I don't really like to get into new stuff too soon either.
    I also would probably have made 2 backup sets if costs were lower. One copy to save stored, and one to use, mostly music and some video I edited and done with, but don't want to do it again. Converting old cassette tapes to MP3's is not something I want to redo very often either, and even ripping CDs is a pain when you have too many of them.
    I figure 1 BIG disk like 15-25gigs should hold plenty, and it could be used as portable to be played also, kinda like those expensive CD or DVD disk changers, but just 1 disk
    Then use as many as needed to store the entire collection.
    So since the data does not change it only has to be created once and make sure it's never lost!

    I may be buying out a store cheap, owner wants out, TONS of content I do not own yet, CDs and DVDs even tapes and I never would buy them at full price. If the business does not sell in about another month I probably get all the stock for about 10 cents on the dollar
    It may be after Christmas if I get it, he'll want to hold out for holiday sales I would guess, I know I would if I could, then sell out after. As a running business he wants too much for it, for stock only it's cheap.
    So if I get that deal, I will be ripping backups steady for along time!! Maybe 1,000's of gigs. Open one new retail piece, rip a copy to use, store the retail master. Sell off the extras, probably 4-12 retail copies of most the new stuff, I only need 1 myself. I hope he can get Pirates 3 before he sells out to me
    Anyway for something like this, Hard drives won't work to well for me of course. And also I will end up with full sets of movie series/sequels like Police Academy, Leathal weapon etc.. and those types I would like all on one disk if I could.
    Right now times are hard for lots of businesses and many closing up, not every-one does E-bay LOL. I am also watching for small DVD rental stores closing and such to buy up used content cheap. A cheap way to build a collection compared to retail prices for new disks. With Netflix lots of the small mom and pop rentals are in trouble in small towns, in big towns blockbuster and such was hurting them allot also. Some really good deals if you can find them. For $1 a movie if you can get them, you can always sell the duplicates for a profit if you get several of the same movies. Years ago I built my BETA collection this way, buying out old stock for rental stores when Beta Died and everyone wanted VHS!!

    Sometimes it's good to be a bit behind the times

    Hard drives do have many problems that optical does not though. Drop a hard drive on a hard floor and a good chance it won't work, drop a DVD type disk and most likely it will be fine or may have to buff out a few minor scratches. How many people plan to fall down for some reason, NONE normally, so no telling when something may be dropped for some reason.

    The hard drive I want to back up right now is nearly new. It worked perfect for me day before it quit! I put about 20gigs or so on it that day and listened to tons of music. Then next day it made some noises and now not reading the music folders, even disk repair tools are having trouble and not reading it, and I mean repairs tools not just some manufactors diag. program. So a drive is not really reliable, this one was not, I'll have to RMA it when I get done trying to save the data off it.

    Sometimes when a power supply blows it wipes out the entire system with it, hard drives, system board, ram, etc... With an optical drive none of that matters, just pry it open and take out the disk, with a hard drive though data is gone. If this happens your raid is probably lost also. I have a 120gig drive that is not detected at all, I think I had used it in the system that blew a P/S years ago. Lucky that one was backed up.

    Also other odd and bad things may happen to drives that don't effect CD or DVD type disks. I use allot of VERY strong magnets, one day I found wife had put a small box of them under my desk, new order UPS just delivered. She wanted to make sure I found them when I got home, glad it was well packed and small ones!! Some I use if they got stuck to your car you'd never be able to remove them!
    Kid wanted her closet removed from her room for more space, when I ripped it out I found lots of wet stuff where the roof was leaking for along time and we did not know it. Probably would not have been good storing back up drive there, but the disks where fine. I had lots of old CDs on top shelf, and old games we haven't played in years on second shelf, games were trashed and we had to throw those away. Who know's how long it was leaking?

    Course, then again a mouse might chew on disks but not bother a hard drive.
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  14. Member oldandinthe way's Avatar
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    A backup HDD is not really a backup if you run it all the time. So I am really suggesting one or more external drives which is only used to save and retrieve data and is kept in a safe place. That's why I'm considering a third copy of my jukebox. In my opinion a RAID is not appropriate for infrequently accessed materials.

    Good practices for all backups include proper storage, you wouldn't store any backup optical or HDD in a hot attic. Nor in a damp basement without appropriate protection like a plastic bag. I have to admit a preference for plastic storage boxes which are watertight.

    Using 2.5" notebook type drives in an external enclosure provides greater shock resistance than using 3.5" drives. A drop is only occaisionally fatal. This does raise the cost and limit the drive sizes. And lower power requirement reduces the chance of a bad power supply frying the drive. I believe only the 5v is connected. Should a surge occur due to a bad supply the USB interface might fry but the drive will probably remain intact.
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  15. Member Krispy Kritter's Avatar
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    Just so we are clear, most of us that use HDD for backups, don't keep them in a PC. I use removable trays. Slide the tray into the PC, copy the files onto the HDD, remove the tray and place in a safe place. If it is important, then you would create 2 copies.

    I agree there are uses for large optical discs, but not at todays prices. And there is a question of whether or not there is a way of putting SD material onto a HD disc and getting the player to recognize it. The burning software that I've seen so far is for authoring HD material onto the discs.

    Either way, HD optical discs would work well for some projects, but for backups, HDD is the only way to go.
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  16. A backup HDD is not really a backup if you run it all the time. So I am really suggesting one or more external drives which is only used to save and retrieve data and is kept in a safe place.
    Yes, that's true. But figure my drive is less than 2 years old, warautee still good till 2010, it worked perfect one day and the next day it totally died. Could not read anything, I been messing with it with recovery programs, and it got worse and now it is not even seen by the system durring boot up. I never got anything off it either.
    So if this had been a drive for backups only, then that last day it worked perfect I could have backed up a system to it right. Say 2 months later when the backup is needed THAT would be the next day when the drive crashed and all was lost! Doesn't mater the time between, over night or 5 months or what. It worked perfect last time it worked and the next time it was used it crashed totally.
    Sounds like arm is not moving correct inside it, clank, clank, clank, when I turn it on now.

    Sure you could make 2 or 3 backups to be safe but then your adding to the costs for those extra drives to just let them sit. Chances are 2 hard drives will not crash in same day I guess, then agian in shopping for a new drive now I am reading many horror stories about new large drives being DOA, or working for 3-10 days and crashing, also having chips on card that burn out in use right away, etc...
    One such drive I was thinking to buy is a Seagate 500 gig external USB, of course most people never write reviews when they buy something if it works, but I have found far to many reviews where that drive does not work (DOA) or worked for 2 days to 3 months and failed for many people. Shame too, Office Max will have it on sale for $99 on black Friday and I thought I might buy 2 of them.
    Most those people having heat problems and drives crashing are probably not writing or reading a 300gig backup all at once either which I guess it allot more stress on a drive than a few 5-10 gig files ripped or burned here and there.

    Right now the best reviews for working drive I can find is for internal 250gig Seagate Sata drive $70, so 2 of those is $140.
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  17. Member Krispy Kritter's Avatar
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    Target will a 500GB WD drive for $87.

    And FWIW: this has always been the case with HDD's. But all of the "horror stories" (which are typically the result of not having good backups anyway) and complaining are a very small percentage of the total number of drives sold. As you have already pointed out, most posts are from users that have had issues.

    Of the many drives that I've had/used/installed over the years, I've only had a few failures. And a couple of those were the result of other hardware issues damaging the HDD's, not really a HDD issue.

    This all boils down to cost and what you have to do to feel comfortable. If you want your data safe, you should have backups. If you're paranoid and don't trust your backups, then make more than one. There is risk involved in ANY backup method (HDD/CD/DVD/Tape, etc.). It boils down to cost and conveinence.
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