Format war over. Checkmate HD-DVD

[yoda313]

I'll say this hddvd is really good. I don't care about what can be better or if something is "just around the corner". I finally bought an hdtv and I want to take full advantage of it.

I'll even look into bluray so that I can have access to any movie. Probably through a playstation 3 since that will still most likely be the cheapest way to do it.

I just wish you could do burning on hddvd/bluray for less than the price of a new computer. It would be great to record a hdtv broadcast and burn on a disc with no compression whatsoever. Well it will come around soon enough.

[rhegedus]

You can burn both HD-DVD and Blu-Ray to DVD.

[ViRaL1]

I still don't believe it's over, but I'm hedging my bets. I already have a PS3 and I picked up a $99 HD-DVD player at Wally World. I'll just have to wait and see, but I don't have a significant investment in either.

[Coolpplse]

The "huge" extra space of BluRay doesn't really equal that much better quality. BluRay still has a maximum bitrate for the video (40 Mbit/s vs 29.4 Mbit/s for HD-DVD). That's another reason why you see so many BluRay titles with uncompressed audio. They needed to find something to do with all the extra space.

HD-DVD Titles with Dolby TrueHD/DTS Master Audio sound exactly the same

Lossless is no loss, exact copy of the original

The only sound difference that is happening with Lossless and Uncompressed Soundtracks are decoder related on the HD-DVD/Blu-Ray players themselves, or the AV Receiver's decoders, when decoded correctly they are exactly the same

[jagabo]

The head of Sony Corp., Howard Stringer, said Thursday that the Blu-ray disc format the company has developed as the successor to the DVD is in a "stalemate" with the competing HD DVD format

http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20071109/ap_on_hi_te/sony_ceo

[thecoalman]

From the above link:

At the same time, he played down the importance of the battle, saying it was mostly a matter of prestige whose format wins out in the end.

Guess the potential billions in revenue isn't all that important to him

[Leoslocks]

Sony and Microsoft have found themselves on the short end of the stick in the Console market by trying to force their proprietary standards upon the masses. Game developers have started writing for the Wii vs PS3 because, like HD format, there are open tools to make the job easier. More New Games Incoming for Wii than for PlayStation 3 and Xbox 360 Combined

Creating demand is crucial in promoting new technology. Seeing content in High Deffinition will help spur the demand for the technology. Much like broadband, after moving form dial up to High speed, who would be satasfied again with Dial Up?

HD CRT TV with the el cheapo HT A2 Wallmart special and WoW. It is like being old with dim failing eyesight (which happens post 50 yrs) and then "I can See!" (Like I was 19 again). I did not think much of the blessings of youth when I was young. (Youth is wasted on the Young)

The point being, the world is changing faster than the corporations can adjust their business models. Sony is in trouble as is Blue Ray.

[oldandinthe way]

Here we go again

The consumer looks at his HDTV as a big screen TV when he buys it. That is why so many owners of HDTV have no HD input.

Some parts of the computer/consumer entertainment industry are promoting below SD-TV products - like Apple. And they are more successful than HD-DVD, because they are cheaper. The consumer accepts lower quality images.

The cable industry - particularly Comcast, is promoting Video on Demand heavily. There is enough that is free so not only does it undercut HD-DVD, it undercuts the $5.50 DVD bin at Walmart.

SONY is either associated in consumer's minds with Trinitrons or PlayStations. And only the Playstation folks care about Blue-Ray. It is also associated in computer geeks minds with an endless preoccupation with DRM. No the grounds for success.

Toshiba doesn't even enter the consumer's mind.

[Video Head]

What is High Definition? Is there an ISO for HD or is it just a marketing "buzz" word?

Way, way, way back in the early days of home "sound systems" (yes kids, they called it that) the term "High Fidelity" was coined to help sell systems. It worked so well that no right minded person would purchase a component or console "sound system" that did not have the words "High Fidelity" stamped on it. Imagine "The Jones's" arriving for dinner and your "sound system" did not have "High Fidelity"...your now a social outcast. The simple fact of the matter was that "High Fidelity" meant nothing...it did nothing...it was just a term used to describe a stereo system no different from any other.

The term was so succesfull that when VCR's where release with digital audio in the '80's, the marketing people used it again...but this time it defined a technology. Stereo VCR's had existed, but now there was digital, and it needed to be distinguished from it's near cousin. If you had a "High Fidelity" or HiFi VCR you had a VCR with digital audio.

HD is just as muddled. The average consumer does not understand what HD is and the manufacturers are glad of that fact. Until there is an absolute definition of what HD is and an absolute standard for connecting playback and display devices there will be no adoption. The fact that there are two competing technologies for media and players only complicates the matter.

[lordsmurf]

That's very similar to "broadband". Some of the things that are allowed to be classified as broadband are only a few kb's above dial-up 53k.

[guns1inger]

Over here, 576p qualifies as High Definition in the digital broadcast realm. Personally, I think it is a crock, but the media companies held so much sway over the federal government when they were making up the rules . . . . .

And what's HD today will be considered low grade rubbish in a decade anyway.

[MikieV]

That's it. HD-DVD has won.

HD-DVD players are now under $100.

I don't see how Walmart placing a single, discontinued model on sale at "Black Friday" pricing signals the end of the stalemate.

http://www.news.com/8301-10784_3-9808365-7.html

If the manufacturer's didn't already know that a street-price of $100 would sell more players, they are idiots.

If the people buying those $100 players aren't concerned with why that model was discontinued - or don't even know that it is a discontinued model - ...well, caveat emptor.

What seems to be a balanced view:
http://crave.cnet.com/8301-1_105-9755359-1.html?tag=txt

The HD video market has already become very commoditized, so the old set of must-have features--1080p, HDMI 1.3, lossless audio--have already become old hat. So manufacturers are ratcheting up for a new set of bullet points, such as 24-frame video, Deep Color, and HDMI passthrough audio. But they're beginning to become so mind-bogglingly complex that even an informed reader needs some additional exposition. And the key point for all three is this: they're essentially useless if the player isn't connected to compatible gear--or playing discs--that support each feature. In some cases, the compatible hardware and software doesn't quite exist yet; for others, the advantages may just not be as noticeable as the manufacturers will lead you to believe. And while we're focusing on Toshiba and HD DVD in this case, rest assured--these issues apply just as much to Blu-ray players and manufacturers. Or they will, just as soon as more Blu-ray players begin to support these features as well.

[Heywould3]

they still sell DVD+R and DVD-R dont they? looks like its possible to have both formats. no one has to win or loose. dual format players like dual format burners are all we need.

We keep having the same debates: amd vs intel, dvd+r vs -r, dvda v sacd, dvd vs divx, vhs vs beta. will it ever end.. no one here can tell the future, all talk is just that. talk. it blows my mind that topics like this get so big. it happens every damn time. what differece does it make? things will become more clear as time passes as it alaways does. debating it for months wont change anything.

[CaptainVideo]

Let's look at the facts instead of the hyperbole that's thrown around.

According to NPD Group 52% of current HDTV owners are aware of Hi-Def discs. Just slightly more than half. And of that group only 11% intend to buy one in the next 6 months. More are familiar with the HD-DVD format (29%) than Blue-Ray format (20%).

But what's really funny is that more than 4 in 10 HDTV owners (41%) think they get HD from their DVD player, however just 0.6% have DVD players capable of playing a hi-def disc of either of the two formats.

Here's a link to the NPD Group release = http://hiddenwires.co.uk/resourcesnews2007/news20071030-01.html

Source: HDTV: You have the set, but do you have the content? - www.ce.org
High Definition Video Report Series - www.npdgroup.com

The reality is as has been said previously, hi-def discs are going to be a footnote in the annals of video. Nobody really wants it and 41% think they already get it.

[MOVIEGEEK]

You make a good point CaptainVideo,most people buy their HDTV's from bigbox stores where the salespeople are non-existant or uninformed.
I get a kick when I visit forums and read posts such as "will my HD player look good on a SDTV?" or "I just bought an HDTV and the picture looks like crap".Most salespeople don't tell people to get HD programming and to calibrate their TV's.
I however disagree that hi-def discs will be a footnote in history,look how long it took to get people to buy SD DVD players.

[Nilfennasion]

look how long it took to get people to buy SD DVD players.

So far in these accursed threads about how HD-whatever will never take off, that is the first sensical statement I have read.

The difference here is that HD is going to take even longer than SD-DVD to adjust to. When SD-DVD was released to the market, CD players and (relatively) large television sets had been in the market for the better part of two decades. Consumers had been crying out for a home video format that looked good on the first play and kept looking good past 10,000 plays for most of the 1990s and a substantial part of the 1980s. DVD-Video was the first format to exploit what has become known as Standard Definition to the fullest, which is kind of sad when you think about how long television has been around.

HD is like television being reintroduced all over again. You have the ignoramuses who claim it is no different in spite of the eyes-weeping-for-joy difference that 1080P makes, you have the hold-everyone-backs who say that SD is good enough (apparently they have never watched the original PAL release of The Thing, and you have a scant few who actually know what the whole deal is. That is exactly the way it was when a public who went to the cinema to see newsreels was first introduced to television. And apparently history is repeating itself once again.

Quite honestly, after seeing what was titled Kung Fu Hustle in the English-speaking world as a Blu-Ray and then an SD-DVD, how anyone can keep a straight face when they say SD is "good enough" defies explanation. Just the difference between I and P alone is enough reason as far as I am concerned to adopt a new format. Being both blessed and cursed with hypersensitive vision, I have to confess to being absolutely gobsmacked that HDTV owners would think they get HD from their SD-DVD player. That is like believing you can get SACD-quality sound through a telephone.

[SCDVD]

One of the reasons that many people don't appreciate the difference between HD and SD is that they have only seen them in stores and many stores do not show HD properly. Some are just feeding SD into them. The only way to really show 1080P properly is to attach an HD player to it and play a good 1080P movie.

[CaptainVideo]

I however disagree that hi-def discs will be a footnote in history,look how long it took to get people to buy SD DVD players.

I should clarify, HD-DVD and Blu-Ray will be footnotes. Eventually people will migrate to Hi-Def but these two formats will most likely not be the successor. The two camps will eventually realize they have to work together on one standard in order for it to succeed. Otherwise most people are going to avoid it and continue to buy DVD's.

[videobread]

The best case end to the format war will be that Blu Ray and HD DVD kill each other off. Who needs the Beverly Hillbillies on HD? Some of the titles coming out on HD and Blu Ray are here today gone today titles. There is not enough content out there that is good enough to warrant me buying HD equipment when I already own an upscaling DVD player (HDMI). There is not enough content out there that is good enough to warrant the expense of the studios converting it to HD. Too many movies on DVD still need to be worked on. El Cid, as an example, is just now coming out as a remastered DVD. The current El Cid DVD is just a simple digitized transfer. It's just "on DVD" vs. on VHS.
Within a year HD and Blu Ray will have gone the way of the laser disc. The future is in burning DVD's on demand at WalMart and Walgreens. The studios can make all their titles available to the consumer. Stores will get their valuable shelf space back. That's were the money is. That is were the industry is headed. Format war over.

[rotten apple]

Seeing content in High Deffinition will help spur the demand for the technology. Much like broadband, after moving form dial up to High speed, who would be satasfied again with Dial Up?

.

NAH! HD Is FAR MORE SUBJECTIVE and CULTURE/HYPE brainwashing/influencial (extreme eg.like all the people claiming HUGE files of lossless audio is superior without doubt, without knowing about the science behind and efficiency wrt sampling frequency of the MP3 )than the OBJECTIVE functional benefits of significant Broadband - time,speed increased functionality and the potential of the horizon is vastly increased.On the web going from tiny blurred freezing unclear pictures "video" to big crystal clear TV like pictures is this the type of relative increase you are subjectively claiming for SD to HD?


Just like my subjective appeal of the CDs objective benefits not the sound quality but the increase in speed and functionality, of going to any track in any order - the MP3 offering even more functionality decreasing the size of the player, while increasing efficiency of mobility and decreasing price considering the cost of basic MP3 players, no moving parts + increases robustness, combination with other devices - the (modern) mobile phone!!!

[yoda313]

There is not enough content out there that is good enough to warrant me buying HD equipment when I already own an upscaling DVD player (HDMI).

That's how I intially felt when I got my hdtv the other month. The picture on the insignia upconvert was great. In fact so much better than 480p off of my component cables from my xbox 360. However I have finally plunged and bought a used hddvd add on for my xbox 360. The difference it stunning. I had gotten superman returns and transformers in hddvd. The difference is night and day. The upconverted dvds look soft and warmed over compared to the hddvd version. The backgrounds just pop out on you in the hd versions.

What I am waiting for is an economical recording solution. I'd love to have a hd dvr with hd disc recording, be it bluray or hddvd. Doesn't matter. I'd love to make off-air hd recordings and be able to save them to disc and not just a harddrive. Though with terabyte harddrives now becoming affordable that is becoming an option.

[rkr1958]

Who needs the Beverly Hillbillies on HD?

I remember growing up as a boy watching the original run of the Beverly Hillbillies on a b/w TV. It was one of my favorite TV series (especially the early seasons). I once "captured" an episode so I could enjoy it later. This was in the mid-60's when we got our TV via over the air broadcasts. We got 3-UHF & 2-VHF channels. My "capture" technique? I used an audio cassette recorder with a microphone to record the audio and a Polaroid camera with b/w film to snap stills. I snapped 24 pictures over the 30-minute episode. Taking out commercials this gave me an approximate frame rate of ~1 frame per minute. I probably "replayed" that capture 10 times or so. Boy how things have changed.

We currently have an SD 32" (or so) TV. We're currently looking to HD. But all I'm looking to get is a 42" 720p plasma TV and an upscaling DVD player. Also, my wife (an me too) think TIVO is the best thing since sliced bread. It makes finding and recording shows for her (an me) a breeze and the pause feature (especially with a 7yr old in the house) is a necessity. So if I do go that route, I guess I'm looking at getting an HD TIVO too.

I guess I'm one of those lucky (unlucky?) few who don't know better but I don't see what HD or Blu-Ray DVDs have to offer me over current DVDs especially given that I'm looking to "upgrade" to 720p and an upscaling DVD player.

[rhegedus]

I don't see what HD or Blu-Ray DVDs have to offer me over current DVDs especially given that I'm looking to "upgrade" to 720p and an upscaling DVD player.

The difference between HD and SD: https://forum.videohelp.com/topic336933.html#1753484

Upscale all you want, it's still SD.

[SatStorm]

Let's talk about lines for a while and let's say that all DVDs are progressive.

480 (NTSC) to 576 (PAL) are 96 more lines
576 (PAL) to 720 (HD) are 144 more lines
On the other hand, 480 (NTSC) to 720 (HD) are 240 more lines

So, going from PAL to 720 HD, is like going from NTSC to PAL and a bit more. But going from NTSC to 720, we have a huge difference!

For those in PAL-Land with just HD Ready screens (768 vertical lines) and panels up to 42" (or even 46") size, upscaled DVDs really look good on 720p. A True HD source is better and nobody doubts that, but probably not enough better for most people (unfortunately for us, the video enthusiasts).
On the other hand, for those in NTSC-Land, the difference is huge. HD at 720p is a great improvement over upscaled NTSC!

On Full HD ~46"+ Panels, a 1080i/p source can't be compared with any upscaled signal. On those TVs, you must be blind if you say there is no difference between upscaled PAL and HD! Many can see a difference even on the smaller 42" panels!

Unfortunately, those with Full HD TVs, are few today compared those with the HD Ready screens. Also the most popular Panel sizes -at least in Europe - are between the 32-42" range. On those dimensions, it is really questionable if you can see the difference between 720p and 1080i/p. You do see a difference, between NTSC/PAL and 720p. And since the difference between 576 and 720 is 144 lines, the upscaled PAL DVDs and DVB channels, looks very good and close enough the true 720p HD.

This is the reason IMO, that many European mainstream users are not so excited regarding HiDef. People gonna realize the HiDef benefits, only when the majority or them switch to 1080p TVs and 42"+ dimensions. That won't happen soon.

For the NTSC users, it seems that anything beyond typical NTSC looks great in their eyes! The difference between upscaled NTSC and true HD even on 720p is obvious, but it seems that they really feel satisfied enough for the time being with the upscaled NTSC... The average NTSC TV viewers must have as a measure in their mind the notorious NTSC VHS sources or something!. Indeed, compared to them, upscaled NTSC to 720p on 42" (and less) HD ready panels, looks at least amazing!

[edDV]

You are emphasizing the vertical dimension but horizontal resolution improvement is even more dramatic for both "NTSC" and "PAL" especially for 16:9 movies. Normal 720x480/576 needs to be H stretched to 854 (NTSC) or 1024 (PAL) for display. 1280/720 represents a 78% increase in horzontal resolution in both NTSC and PAL.

Screen size is the largest differentiator between the USA and Europe. Smaller rooms and cultural priority of the TV in the household limit adoption of large screens in Europe. In the USA, the TV gets priority in room design and the rooms tend to be larger. Japan has tiny rooms but places highest priority on TV placement and screen size, hence the enthusiastic reception of high resolution displays there.

[rhegedus]

This is the reason IMO, that many European mainstream users are not so excited regarding HiDef. People gonna realize the HiDef benefits, only when the majority or them switch to 1080p TVs and 42"+ dimensions. That won't happen soon.

Not sure what the situation is like in the rest of Europe but in the UK, for new TVs, 42" is the norm, the majority being 1080p

[maek]

Check this out - you can get a brand new Geo Metro for under $15,000.

That's it. GMC has won!!

Or how about this:

you can buy a new home in Ethopia for $300. That's it. Africa has won!!

[videopoo]

If your looking to buy the most cost-effective way to drive a new vehicle or own a home, then your correct! GM and Africa have WON! Thanks for clearing things up.

[mpalm887]

they still sell DVD+R and DVD-R dont they? looks like its possible to have both formats. no one has to win or loose. dual format players like dual format burners are all we need.

We keep having the same debates: amd vs intel, dvd+r vs -r, dvda v sacd, dvd vs divx, vhs vs beta. will it ever end.. no one here can tell the future, all talk is just that. talk. it blows my mind that topics like this get so big. it happens every damn time. what differece does it make? things will become more clear as time passes as it alaways does. debating it for months wont change anything.

A REALLY GOOD POINT. Furthermore I strongly think that portable media will become obsolete before HD-DVD or Blu-Ray win this war. I mean you can already download pirated High-Def movies re-encoded to formats playable with VLC on your home PC.

I believe that soon enough movies will be released almost exclusively for download and we will be able to choose our codec and/or resolution standard based on our own desires for playback. That way old school classics won't have to be re-released on Hi-Def portable media as well. I think now is the time for electronics companies to look into replacing HD-DVD, Blu-Ray, and DVD players with "Video Media Players." That can decode all the exotic formats like DivX, Xvid, MKV, etc from an internal HD that is updated via FireWire 800. Perhaps it can double as a PVR for Digital Cable or Satallite application.

I'm telling you it will be here before you know it. I'm getting a PS3 so I can enjoy a few HD movies in the mean time, and when the above hits the market I've still got a gaming system.

[maek]

I agree. Ultimately, the companies that have the most to gain are the ones who are not going to side with either and incorporate both. That way, heavyweights like Sony in one corner and Toshiba (ok, that's funny...but they have Universal on their side) in the other can keep coughing cash into their formats.

Ultimately, they will have to come to terms with acknowledging both formats because no one is backing down.

DVD+R and DVD-R ARE still around. Before, the companies that fronted either had players that would exclusively play one or the other. Now, it's practically prevalent that they support both.

My Philips DVD burner, for example, will handle either format...but wait...didn't they develop DVD+R? I also seem to recall that Sony was part of that same alliance and yet they, too, play both formats. Hmmm....