Format war over. Checkmate HD-DVD

[Dv8ted2]

I guess I am in the minority. I am more computer oriented. Monitors can display a higher resolution. I think this whole HD revolution stuff is overrated.

[Nilfennasion]

When you can buy a 40" computer monitor for around $2000, let us know.

Flash memory is not without problems of its own, either. My personal favourite being the rude shock when you pay $70 for what the packaging says is a 4GB drive and your computer tells you it is actually a 3.72GB drive. Optical discs are still popular mainly because they are dirt cheap (aside from mastering costs, the cost of pressing each disc when you do a run of millions is mere cents).

By the way, SCDVD, the actual cost price per unit of players in both formats is still in the four-figures range. Not because of differences in manufacturing points of view (which are in fact considerable given that the ultra-fine laser is very new technology). But rather because of the old economy of scale problem. DVD players were exactly the same way in 1999. They were being bought exclusively by the early adopter or video junkie (you know, the kind who bought a 100" RPTV in the mid-1990s). So manufacturers produced less of them, bought less parts, and paid more to make each unit. It works the same way with televisions, mobile phones, cameras, and pretty much any other item you care to name with electronic parts in it.

It works the same way with HD disc formats. The manufacturers are colluding with the format patent owners so they spread out their launch losses evenly, hoping to break even on disc sales. When one of the formats reaches the position that DVD was in in 2001-2002, and studio support/content tips the odds heavily in favour of Blu-Ray on that score, prices for a good player will be down to what some cheapskates think is a fair price, and the player manufacturers will make a small profit on each unit. Pretty much exactly the way it is now with DVD.

It also strikes me as deliciously ironic that people in a forum where the subject is the use of recordable media can wail on how awful Sony is while nobody besides myself mentions the real evil empire, Toshiba.

[SmokieStover]

If I had an HDTV, I would have tried to buy one. Would have no interest in BUYING the HDDVD disk........rent only! DVD is the last format that I am buying into. Of course, this isn't what either camp wants. They are looking for a new spurt of growth in home movie sales with a higher profit margin to boot .... take a loss on the players and clean-up on disk sales.

I recall kid number one buying, with her own money, our first DVD player. That was in 2000 and she wanted a player that could play mp3 and VCD made with her then new Acer CD burner.

The burner came from Bestbuy and cost $99 after mail in rebate. It gave out about 9 months ago. The DVD player was an Apex AD1100W and it came from Walmart at a new every day low price of $100. That thing has played thousands of hours of video (DVD-Rom, VCD, SVCD, DVD-R, DVD+R, DVD+RW, Extended DVD). And it's still in use almost every day. These are two examples of real technical break-throughs for the consumer.

The same thing will happen eventually with high-def. And when it does, no one will be wasting time argueing about it. There are so few new TV programs and Movies which I like, that I don't care if that day ever comes. I will not be buying anything HD till there are no other choices.

[Conquest10]

BTW, did anyone actually get one?

I did but months ago. They were $240 then. I love it. None of my TVs are 1080p so the 1080i is not a minus with me. Plus, when 1080p players are cheaper I can just buy one of those since all my movies are native 1080p anyway.

[Nilfennasion]

This highlights the only reason I have yet to buy a Blu-Ray player. In Australia, HD-DVD and Blu-Ray players are often twice the price they are in the USA. A good example would be Sony's latest entry level model. Amazon sells it for less than $450 with free shipping in the continental states. In Australia, the same player is $850. And that is when the salesmen feel the need to compete.

The Australian dollar is presently worth in excess of 90 US cents, for those who are awaiting the punchline.

Since HD-DVD is Toshiba, they can get bent for all I care, but this should provide a good insight into why US customers can get players for prices that amount to a loss for the manufacturer.

[Video Head]

When you can buy a 40" computer monitor for around $2000, let us know.

What about connecting an HTPC to a 42" HDTV via HDMI/DVI or component HD?

[Conquest10]

Just one question, does anyone know if these HD players play PAL dvd's?
I'd buy one in a flash.

I just checked. No, this particular HD-DVD player cannot play PAL DVDs. Never occurred to me to check before considering I have so many PAL discs. Looks like I got to keep both disc players for the time being.

[Leoslocks]

I walked into Walmart at 10:30 Friday and they still had 8 players. I have been shopping for an upconverting DVD player so decided to get one at that price. Walmart even had some HDDVD's for $15.

Without Component or HDMI cables, it will only put out 480P. (Cable on the way)

[Conquest10]

Without Component or HDMI cables, it will only put out 480P. (Cable on the way)

That's not the player. HD can only be output through component, HDMI or DVI. Same thing with cable boxes.

[lacywest]

interesting

[vhelp]

I'm voting for HD-DVD, because MPEG has (IMHO) more than proven its worth.
Plus, we have a much better understanding of the format in terms of application
and tools and things. All that and more.

Plus, I like the idea of knowing that I can continue to use my own proven
technique of encoding to the MPEG-2 format with very good quality.

I don't care very much for VC-1 / WM9 / h264 or whatever they are all called.
They may have some usefulness in other mediums. And, i'm not all that crazy
about size n stuff with those format. I'm content with mpeg-2/dvd format

-vhelp 4423

[Conquest10]

I'm voting for HD-DVD, because MPEG has (IMHO) more than proven its worth.

BluRay can also play back MPEG-2

[Nilfennasion]

MPEG-2 has actually proven inadequate for the needs of high-definition on a couple of memorable occasions. Whether it was the compression algorithm or sloppy work on the part of those doing the encoding remains to be seen, but a combination of both would not surprise me.

[yoda313]

Ok what exactly is the difference between bluray and hddvd? I looked up the specs on this site and they say:

Blu-ray Disc
Video codecs MPEG2 - MP@HL and MP@ML
AVC/H264 - MPEG-4 AVC: HP@4.1/4.0 and MP@4.1/4.0/3.2/3.1/3.0
VC-1 - AP@L3 and AP@L2


HD DVD
Video codecs MPEG2
AVC/H264 - MPEG-4 AVC
VC-1

I know I'm not an expert by any means in video but to my eye they seem identical. I had thought hddvd was mainly vc1 and bluray was mpeg2. They can both do the same????

if they can both do the same then how in the hell did we end up with a format war in the first place????

[racer-x]

yoda313 wrote:

if they can both do the same then how in the hell did we end up with a format war in the first place????

Greed!!!!!

[yoda313]

yoda313 wrote:

if they can both do the same then how in the hell did we end up with a format war in the first place????

Greed!!!!!

So technically they are essentially identical though correct? I mean I understand the players are different but if the codecs that they are based on are the same than I guess i don't know where the divergence started...

[racer-x]

I'm just going to sit this crazy format war out.......I don't care about Hollywood releases anyway. I do produce a lot of Hi-Def content with my HDV camera and DSLR's, but for now I'm content to play back through my TVIX SH4100 to my HDTV in full 1080p or 720p. Who knows, by the time the dust settles, we could have a better an cheaper alternative.

[Nilfennasion]

If you mean "are these compression algorithms identical?", then yes.

However, the extra 20 rounded-gig of Blu-Ray will make a bit of a difference where encoding longer films and features is concerned. A big difference, given identical codecs. I do not know precisely how disc space and codecs work on the new formats, but a primary complaint about SD-DVD was that it really penalised the compressionist for putting more than sixty minutes on each layer (this was especially apparent in films like The Lord Of The Rings In Name Only, where digital haze was evident in a lot of long shots). Any decent format technically should be able to fit a three-hour feature film without the serious compromises that it entailed on SD-DVD. Hence, Sony felt the consumer would be more accepting of a format that allowed this.

Of course, having a disc size of 50 GB makes backup a little more difficult, but I am sure that was just a side effect.

[TheUnknownComic]

Nobody is going to buy a player thinking it is the final player they'll ever purchase. So, whether it's 1080p or 1080i doesn't mean much. Basically you're committing to a format (HD vs. Blue Ray). Once you make that choice and invest in some movies then you're more likely to stay with that format. Wal-Mart selling a lot of HD players could be very important to the format. Note they were also selling HD movies for $15 on the same day. Plus, Toshiba is giving away five movies with each player purchase. As for quantity, I went to two Wal-Marts and each had at least twenty players on Friday evening. So, they did have them in quantity. If people buy the player because it's cheap and then buy a bunch of discs, then they're more likely to stick with HD.

[Nilfennasion]

Unfortunately, that relies on the assumption that both formats will be produced for a long time, and studios will support both formats for a long time.

Earlier this year, HD-DVD was one studio away from going out forever. All it would have taken is Universal saying "we have decided that it makes more sense to stay format neutral", and that would have been it. Given that the deal with Paramount is only effective for eighteen months from its start date (funny how this does not seem to concern HD-DVD supporters), the total loss of exclusive HD-DVD support is still a very real and imminent possibility. If (although some people say it is more a matter of when) that happens, all these people who bought a HD-DVD player for $100 at Walmart will be stuck with a player that will get progressively less useful as time goes on.

I still have a hard time even thinking about buying a format that is patented to a company which refuses to support any recordables other than DVD-R on players that it manufactured less than six months ago and advertises that their three-step zoom is to get rid of the "black lines on widescreen movies". Any company that dedicated to playback control and misinformation can get bent when asking for my money.

Considering that the formats have been in existence for a mere eighteen months (if that), and therefore Moore's Law has not had a chance to do the same work on it as it has with DVD-Video, a $100 HD-DVD player does not sound like victory to me. Instead, it screams "fire sale". And I have still yet to locate one retailer in my travels that even sells the players. Or the software.

[yoda313]

If you mean "are these compression algorithms identical?", then yes.

However, the extra 20 rounded-gig of Blu-Ray will make a bit of a difference where encoding longer films and features is concerned. A big difference, given identical codecs. I do not know precisely how disc space and codecs work on the new formats, but a primary complaint about SD-DVD was that it really penalised the compressionist for putting more than sixty minutes on each layer (this was especially apparent in films like The Lord Of The Rings In Name Only, where digital haze was evident in a lot of long shots). Any decent format technically should be able to fit a three-hour feature film without the serious compromises that it entailed on SD-DVD. Hence, Sony felt the consumer would be more accepting of a format that allowed this.

Of course, having a disc size of 50 GB makes backup a little more difficult, but I am sure that was just a side effect.

So space is the main difference then??? When will the extra layered hddvds come out?? I thought they were pushing that just a little while ago. Wouldn't that erase any advantage?

[Conquest10]

The "huge" extra space of BluRay doesn't really equal that much better quality. BluRay still has a maximum bitrate for the video (40 Mbit/s vs 29.4 Mbit/s for HD-DVD). That's another reason why you see so many BluRay titles with uncompressed audio. They needed to find something to do with all the extra space.

[videopoo]

That extra space is really not needed when you use more advanced codecs like VC-1 and AVC. You really can't see a difference between a VC-1 encode of 12mb/s and 28.

I'm having a hard time understanding why so many people on this site are so into BD. Techno freaks like to wrap their heads around technology. BD makes this impossible unless you have access to the tools which create them and the spec books. HD DVD technology has been made available to the public for almost 2 years now. It not about who holds more bits of info or which disc can be put into a microwave and still be usable. To this day, BD can't preform Picture in Picture - something HD DVD has been doing from the start.

Do any BD fan boys here actually know what goes into creating a BD title?

HD DVD is understandable, extension of a proven disc spec (DVD-Video). It's language is based on in HTML, XML, and J-Scripting - all well known languages. One of my clients is thinking of buying a Scenarist HDMV set up and I'm beginning to wonder what I'll have to feed those little elves that live inside that thing or perhaps, will the blue crystal work better than the red crystal??

[lordsmurf]

Don't try to understand true tech geeks videopoo. I usually dismiss these insane techie fascinations with products (that other folks find to be crap, and rightly so) as the product of a genetic disorder. Usually attached to an OCD.

HD-DVD extends a proven technology, so ideally it would "win" from that fact alone. Then again, nobody really cares about HD, and they're fed up with discs in general, so it's doomed to be Laserdisc version 2.

Techies flock to crap like Blu-Ray because it's new and different, and because it integrates with their other life-sucking devices (in this case, a Playstation 3).

It's nice to look at tech and all, but you need to keep at least half of your brain (and common sense) grounded in reality. The one where we have paychecks and families and other hobbies, etc. Ones that usually dictate replacing a DVD with a DVD-on-steroids is stupid. Patently stupid.

These same folks were there telling us SACD and DVD-Audio would make our CDs obsolete. Or that a Laserdisc was the pinnacle in video quality.

A number of these folks also suffer from 'my-dick-is-bigger-than-your-dick' inferiority complexes. They must have a bigger tech device than the neighbor, buddy or office co-worker. They love to compare specs, as if specs are an actual determining factor in the success or usefulness of a product. They see that BD has a few extra GBs, and that sells them on its superior nature, even though such reasoning is pure fallacy and horseshit.

But hey, what do I know, right? I surround myself with normal people, I only subject myself to techies online. In real life, I'd probably want to smack them in the head for being such a dummy.

[rhegedus]

I don't see what the issue is here with regards to extra capacity. 50Gb vs 30Gb isn't a pissing contest, it's future proofing your investment for a bit longer.

A BD burner costs no more now than the first multi format DVD writer - people were all over the DRU-500 like a rash over 5 years ago.

I usually dismiss these insane techie fascinations with products (that other folks find to be crap, and rightly so) as the product of a genetic disorder. Usually attached to an OCD.

Don't try and legitimise your opinion by tagging some quackery on to it.

[lordsmurf]

"A BD burner costs no more now than the first multi format DVD writer - people were all over the DRU-500 like a rash over 5 years ago." ---- And the reason that isn't happening again is because nobody really cares about HD discs.

Call it quackery if you wish, but the obsessiveness of techies with failed and failing technology really can't be described as anything but an OCD. These are the same folks that upgrade hardware and software for no reason. Some nervous tick in their system causes them to always tinker and get overly excited with something most people consider crap, useless or silly.

The people who jump up and down over HD right now (overly glorifying BS comments) are the same folks who talked up HDTV and LCD, and are now getting negative criticism from those who got suckered by it (admittedly an issue of ignorance/innocence on their part, but the blame is shared). The normal people.

These techie nerds don't seem to have "garbage filters" installed. Anything new gets praise. But anything not different or unusual gets panned. They have an inability to see a product for what it is.

BTW, you're exempt Rheg. You don't get into techie things too often, not that I can remember. Infrequent excitement about something is fine. I refer to these people who are constantly excited about some tech crap. They remind me of puppies that piss themselves from joy. Wagging those tails so hard the entire ass moves back and forth.

[SatStorm]

I second lordsmurf on most of his thoughts.

I.M.O., for commercial use (movies), HD DVD is enough. BD may have benefits for TV Series or huge movies, but how many are those huge movies?
But for Data back up, both BD and HDDVD looks like the floppy drivers back in 2002. Having on our hobby one Terra of hard disc space is common nowdays for our PCs, imagine that in a couple of years. Sure, some don't have yet this HD space, but when you deal with Hi-Def, you need HD space and one Terra is not enough, believe me...

High Definition is the future (and the present for some of us), but I don't believe today's optical discs are a part of this future. IMO, the future is on memories cards.

[oldandinthe way]

At last, two Lordsmurf posts I can agree 100% with.

There are so many items items offered for sale which would be highly successful - if somebody cared.

The last time a market was created for a product which no one cared about was the cigarette. And James Buchanan Duke invented the marketing methods still in use today to create it. Unfortunately the public has seen them all before.

[rhegedus]

"A BD burner costs no more now than the first multi format DVD writer - people were all over the DRU-500 like a rash over 5 years ago." ---- And the reason that isn't happening again is because nobody really cares about HD discs.

That I understand, I just don't think it's a cost issue - that's all.

"Call it quackery if you wish, but the obsessiveness of techies with failed and failing technology really can't be described as anything but an OCD. These are the same folks that upgrade hardware and software for no reason. Some nervous tick in their system causes them to always tinker and get overly excited with something most people consider crap, useless or silly.

Not medically - check the ICD-10 and DSM-IV characterisation of personality disorders.

BTW, you're exempt Rheg. You don't get into techie things too often, not that I can remember. Infrequent excitement about something is fine. I refer to these people who are constantly excited about some tech crap. They remind me of puppies that piss themselves from joy. Wagging those tails so hard the entire ass moves back and forth.

I see where you're coming from. I'm not one for upgrading my CPU or graphics card for the newest model every few months, but optical media formats change so infrequently and are such a departure from the previous that I'm happy to give them a go

[twalkman]

I don't think it's "checkmate", but I have to give credit to the HD-DVD faction for paying any price to stay in the battle and possibly win.

They were losing the monthly sales battle (even with a significant headstart), but the combination of cheap players and "Transformer" exclusive really puts them back in the game.

They've thrown the guantlet down and asked Sony how much money are they willing to lose this year.

Sony is already behind the 8-ball with the PS3, and they have a terrible track record of losing technology battles due to their arrogance (memory stix, etc).

I personally would prefer to see Blu-Ray and PS3 win (mainly because I dislike MS so much), but I think the checkmate scenario for Sony would be if Disney switched to HD-DVD or went neutral.

I think people buying this equipment at Walmart like to justify it as a "family" present. Disney helps.