SCART to S-Video or Composite converter drops color

[chupacabra]

I wanted to copy a small video I recorded with my VHS recorder to the PC. Since my VHS recorder only supports a SCART output I bought a "SCART to S-Video/Composite + Left/Right Cinch Audio" converter and plugged everything together - my PC has a Pinnacle PCTV Pro capture card.

Unfortunately the converter seems to drop the chroma (color) of the video signal. Everything is black and white. I found some threads on the internet that tell me that my converter is probably a cheap Asian piece of crap and that one can order better and more expensive converters that do the same but don't drop the chroma of the input. Can you confirm this? Is this true or is there something else wrong?

The strange thing is that the converter has an INPUT/OUTPUT switch and everything works the other way around. When I plug the SCART into the TV and connect the Composite cable of my DVD player to it the image covers luma (brightness) and chroma (color). Why doesn't it work the other way around?

[oldandinthe way]

Could be cheap box. Broken box. Bad cables. Poor connection.

And I am assuming that the TV, VCR and capture card have previously worked so they haven't made my list.

[JohnnyMalaria]

I've heard of these 'converters'. They are misleading. AFAIK, what they do is simply convert the physical connector - i.e., the SCART pins to the S-video pins. One of the SCART pins carries the composite video. *Some* carry the separate Y and C pins for S-video. Most likely, your cable takes the composite signal from the VCR and just brings it out the Y pin on the S-video plug end. Hence, you just see B/W.

They claim to have a built-in chip to do it. I think I read somewhere that it is just a capacitor. i.e., it's a scam. Conversion of composite to S-video isn't trivial.

[GideonK]

I assume your VCR is PAL, Is your Pinnacle card also Pal? or is it NTSC? It could be PAL to NTSC conversion issue.
(Just a wild guess).

[chupacabra]

I assume your VCR is PAL, Is your Pinnacle card also Pal? or is it NTSC? It could be PAL to NTSC conversion issue.
(Just a wild guess).

My VCR and my Pinnacle card are both PAL yes. I also bought another converter (the same type) and it doesn't work either so it's probably the converters fault. Is there a way to convert SCART to S-Video or Composite without losing the color of the video signal?

[chupacabra]

I've heard of these 'converters'. They are misleading. AFAIK, what they do is simply convert the physical connector - i.e., the SCART pins to the S-video pins. One of the SCART pins carries the composite video. *Some* carry the separate Y and C pins for S-video. Most likely, your cable takes the composite signal from the VCR and just brings it out the Y pin on the S-video plug end. Hence, you just see B/W.

They claim to have a built-in chip to do it. I think I read somewhere that it is just a capacitor. i.e., it's a scam. Conversion of composite to S-video isn't trivial.

This is how it looks like, however it's not the same model:



I don't use any Composite to S-Video conversion. I've also tried the Composite out. It has no color information either (hence the topic of this thread).

[chupacabra]

Could be cheap box. Broken box. Bad cables. Poor connection.

And I am assuming that the TV, VCR and capture card have previously worked so they haven't made my list.

Yes it's definitely not the Pinnacle card. The cables are also not the problem. I tested them separately and they all work correctly. It has something to do with the converter. Do you know where I can get a working one? I asked in the store I bought this converter and the guy was staring at me if I were dumb and didn't understand my problem.

[hech54]

I use SCART to S-Video cables and they ARE "one way". Unfortunately I always forget exactly which way does not work until I hook them up.
If I do it wrong I get B&W picture.

GEEZ I can't spell today.

[Richard_G]

Unless your VCR is a high end S-VHS model, it will not output an S-Video signal. It is not the adapter tht it losing it, it isn't there in the first place. Although SCART can deal with composite, S-Video and RGB, it will only work if the equipment you are connecting has the required outputs. Your DVD player does output S-Video so that will give colour.

You will need to use composite instead (the yellow phono, cinch, RCA, whatever you want to call it), to composite in on your capture card.

[chupacabra]

Unless your VCR is a high end S-VHS model, it will not output an S-Video signal. It is not the adapter tht it losing it, it isn't there in the first place. Although SCART can deal with composite, S-Video and RGB, it will only work if the equipment you are connecting has the required outputs. Your DVD player does output S-Video so that will give colour.

You will need to use composite instead (the yellow phono, cinch, RCA, whatever you want to call it), to composite in on your capture card.

The Composite jack gives no color either. It mus be the adapter/converter. My brother owns a digital satellite receiver with SCART output, Composite output and S-Video output. When I use this converter with that receiver the Composite and S-Video jack of the converter (connected to the SCART output of the receiver) gives no color either.

When I connect the SCART of the VCR directly to a device that has a SCART input jack the images include color. The only reasonable answer is that the converter drops the color. What do I have to pay attention to, not to buy one that drops the color next time? There is nothing written about this on the packaging of the converter...

[JohnnyMalaria]

Personally, I think it is just a box designed to take incoming S-video, composite and audio signals via traditional jacks and connect them to the right pins on the SCART side so you can hook up S-video and composite equipment to your TV input. Think of it like a travel adapter - US pins on one side, UK 13A pins on the other. Nothing happens to the signals....

A multimeter will easily confirm it.

Also, SCART has separate input and output pins for each signal, so if the converter is designed for something with SCART input, using it as output will likely fail. Your symptoms a consistent with this.

Do you have a make/model info?

[chupacabra]

Personally, I think it is just a box designed to take incoming S-video, composite and audio signals via traditional jacks and connect them to the right pins on the SCART side so you can hook up S-video and composite equipment to your TV input. Think of it like a travel adapter - US pins on one side, UK 13A pins on the other. Nothing happens to the signals....

A multimeter will easily confirm it.

Also, SCART has separate input and output pins for each signal, so if the converter is designed for something with SCART input, using it as output will likely fail. Your symptoms a consistent with this.

Do you have a make/model info?

No, there is absolutely nothing written on it, except the text input and output near the INPUT/OUTPUT switch. I thought I can use it in both directions. Well I can but in one direction the color of the video is missing.

I'm an IT guy and know little about electrical engineering. Maybe you can tell me how exactly I can find out whether the converter drops the color?

[JohnnyMalaria]

Based on all your descriptions so far, I'd expect that the wiring diagram is as per this website:

http://pinouts.ru/VideoCables/scart_adapter_pinout.shtml

See the top diagram.

Clearly, the composite video on the SCART side is connected directly to the yellow phono jack. It is also connected to the luma pins on the 4-pin DIN (S-video) jack.

When using an S-video signal, the same pins serve as the luma component. The chroma signal comes from separate pins on the SCART side to the chroma pins on the 4-pin DIN jack.

Consequently, feeding a composite signal in at the SCART side will only produce black-and-white at the 4-pin DIN side - there is no chroma signal.

As I mentioned before, there's no simple way to convert composite to S-video. Some form of electronics are required.

This company claim to have a cable to do just that:

http://www.datapro.net/products/composite-to-s-video-convertor.html

Personally, I'm skeptical but you never know (only 2 Google hits for it).

(S-video to composite is more straightforward - if you see cheap devices doing that, don't assume they work in reverse - they most likely will not).

[chupacabra]

I think we are talking about two different issues here.

I don't want to convert a Composite video signal to an S-Video signal. I want to convert the SCART signal into an S-Video or Composite signal (see thread title). Both the Composite and S-Video out ports have no chroma.

[JohnnyMalaria]

IGNORE

[JohnnyMalaria]

Is this your card:



If so, it only seems to have an S-video input. Connecting a composite signal no matter what way will give black and white.

Have you tried connecting the S-video from your DVD player to the capture card to confirm it is OK?

Can you be more specific about how you are connecting the adapter to the capture card?

[Richard_G]

I think we are talking about two different issues here.

I don't want to convert a Composite video signal to an S-Video signal. I want to convert the SCART signal into an S-Video or Composite signal (see thread title). Both the Composite and S-Video out ports have no chroma.

If your card only has S-Video input you are stuffed! Your VCR will almost certainly only be outputting composite, as Johnny has pointed out, there is no separate chroma output. Using the SCART adapter you are combining the Luma from the composite with the Chroma that doesn't exist, hence you only have a Luma signal. This would be fine if you were feeding it into a composite input but, if your card only has S-Video, you aren't.

You MAY be able to achieve a succesfull result if you can go via your TV set. If the TV is a high end one, it may well output S-Video from a SCART socket, some do, some don't. This is intended to be used if you have a PVR connected. Conect the VCR to the TV and ensure you have a colour picture, connect a second SCART lead to the second SCART on the TV and connect that to your capture card. If the TV is outputting an S-Video signal, it will then give a colour picture. You may have to experiment with which SCART you use for the input from the VCR and which you use to output to the capture card.

Your only other alternative, will be to try and borrow a high end S-VHS VCR which will output S-Video to use for the capture or change your capture card for one that has composite input as well.

[chupacabra]

Did you actually read my previous posts or the topic of this thread?

No that is not my card.

My Pinnacle card has a Composite and an S-Video jack. Both receive no color if I connected them via cables to the converter that is plugged into the VCR. The same happens if I plug the same converter to my DVD player or the digital satellite receiver.

Your VCR will almost certainly only be outputting composite, as Johnny has pointed out, there is no separate chroma output. Using the SCART adapter you are combining the Luma from the composite with the Chroma that doesn't exist, hence you only have a Luma signal.

What do you mean by the Chroma does not exists? Do you mean that the Chroma is transferred in the same signal as the Luma on the Composite output? I don't know but I doubt that this applies to all three devices I have tried.

Do you still think that it has nothing to do with the converter/adapter?

[JohnnyMalaria]

Did you actually read my previous posts?

No that is not my card.

According to Pinnacle's website, the photo is a Pinnacle PCTV Pro that you say you have - PCI card version. Do you have the USB version:



You need to be specific. The USB one has composite and S-video. Have you tried this with any other video source such as the output from your DVD player (as I suggest before)? If not, do so. If you capture in colour then you know the PCTV Pro is OK. If it is still black and white then you probably have an NTSC/PAL issue.

Try the following:

DVD Player-->composite output-->composite cable-->Pinnacle composite input. Colour?
DVD Player-->S-video output-->S-video cable-->Pinnalce S-video input. Colour?

Satellite receiver-->composite output-->composite cable-->Pinnacle composite input. Colour?
Satellite receiver-->S-video output-->S-video cable-->Pinnalce S-video input. Colour?
[if it has S-video and composite connections]

Satellite receiver-->SCART output-->Adapter->composite cable-->Pinnacle composite input. Colour?
Satellite receiver-->SCART output-->Adapter->S-video cable-->Pinnalce S-video input. Colour?

If you've already done these, great. Just trying to understand exactly what is going on.

Pinnacle often make NTSC-only and PAL-only versions of their products. Are you certain it is the PAL version? Have you ever successfully captured a colour signal from a PAL source with it?

Do you still think that it has nothing to do with the converter/adapter?

It doesn't make sense that passing a composite signal through something that simply connects one set of pins to another would cause the chroma to disappear. So, I think that it has some other stuff inside. Since you said you bought two, I would cut one open to find out if none of the above reveal anything.

[Richard_G]

What do you mean by the Chroma does not exists? Do you mean that the Chroma is transferred in the same signal as the Luma on the Composite output? I don't know but I doubt that this applies to all three devices I have tried.

Do you still think that it has nothing to do with the converter/adapter?

No, I do not think it is the adapter, especially as you have tried 2 and they are both doing the same thing. A composite signal contains both the Luma and Chroma information in the same signal, S-Video has them separate on different wires. As I have already pointed out, it is unlikely that your VCR is capable of outputting S-Video so you only have the composite to work with.

The fact that the other 2 items, the DVD player and satellite receiver do the same thing does seem to confirm that it is the adapter at fault but it may not be. On a DVD player and satellite receiver, you will need to tell it what type of output you want. There will be a menu item somewhere in the setup that will allow you to change it. The options will be Composite, S-Video or RGB. On every one I have come across, the composite output is there all the time. If it is not set to output S-Video it will only be outputting Composite and/or RGB. This would explain why you are getting the same results with two other items that should, in theory, be working.

If you connect the adapter to your VCR and use the yellow phono socket (for composite) on the adapter and connect that to your the yellow phono on the capture device, it should give colour. If it does not then it may well be a problem in the setup for the capture device. Make sure you have selected the Composite input as the source and that the format is set to PAL. There is always a chance that the device is a PAL unit but the software is looking for an NTSC signal.

[chupacabra]

According to Pinnacle's website, the photo is a Pinnacle PCTV Pro that you say you have - PCI card version. Do you have the USB version:

You need to be specific. The USB one has composite and S-video. Have you tried this with any other video source such as the output from your DVD player (as I suggest before)? If not, do so. If you capture in colour then you know the PCTV Pro is OK. If it is still black and white then you probably have an NTSC/PAL issue.

I have the PCI version but it has a composite input jack and looks like this:

DVD Player-->composite output-->composite cable-->Pinnacle composite input. Colour?

Yes there is colour.

DVD Player-->S-video output-->S-video cable-->Pinnalce S-video input. Colour?

Yes there is colour.

Satellite receiver-->composite output-->composite cable-->Pinnacle composite input. Colour?

Yes there is colour.

Satellite receiver-->S-video output-->S-video cable-->Pinnalce S-video input. Colour?

It has no S-Video output jack.

Satellite receiver-->SCART output-->Adapter->composite cable-->Pinnacle composite input. Colour?

No there is no colour.

Satellite receiver-->SCART output-->Adapter->S-video cable-->Pinnalce S-video input. Colour?

No there is no colour.

Pinnacle often make NTSC-only and PAL-only versions of their products. Are you certain it is the PAL version? Have you ever successfully captured a colour signal from a PAL source with it?

I belive it is, since I bought it here in Europe. I can switch between NTSC and PAL inside the software application.

[JohnnyMalaria]

Thanks. It does seem to point to the adapter which brings me back to my earlier thoughts. Is this adapter a simple pin-to-pin adapter or does it do anything to the signal internally? A capacitor connected across the output composite video signal and its return would filter the signal. Given the right capacitor value, it could easily filter out all the high frequency (~4.43MHz) info - i.e., the chroma. If there is one and only on the output, it would explain why the input direction isn't affected.

If you have access to an oscilloscope (at least 10MHz) then you can easily see if the signal is being filtered.

Unless you have an oscilloscope/capacitor bridge, the only way to tell is to open the adapter. If you do and you see any capacitors etc., just remove them.

[The_Doman]

Thanks. It does seem to point to the adapter which brings me back to my earlier thoughts. Is this adapter a simple pin-to-pin adapter or does it do anything to the signal internally?

Those SCART adapters do nothing to the signal, it is indeed just a pin-to-pin adapter.

I have a few of those here too, it is much used here in Europe.

[JohnnyMalaria]

Assuming all the connections are as they should be and it is just a straightforward pin-to-pin adapter, then there could be stray capacitance from a badly soldered joint (assuming it is just soldered wires inside).

But it would be unlikely that it affects both the adapters you have bought. Unless it is poor design.

Isn't there any identifying information such as make/model either on the adapter itself or the packaging?


Since you only need to connect SCART composite + audio OUT to your Pinnacle card, I would recommend keeping it very simple and buy something like this (click on image for more):



No S-video, no IN/OUT switching to worry about and dirt cheap.

If this still creates black-and-white composite then something is wrong with your TV's SCART output - which would be odd since you don't get colour with your satellite receiver using the adapter, either. At that point, I would take a phono-phono cable, cut one end up and bare the core and shield wires. Plug them into the correct pins on your TV's SCART output and plug the other end (with the phono plug on) into your Pinnacle.... (Of course, you could try this before buying the other adapter).

[lordsmurf]

They do make conversion cables that maintain the color. But they are expensive. It's been about 3 years since I last looked into this topic. I had a lot of signal issues when I bought PAL S-VHS VCRs initially.

[chupacabra]

Thanks for your help. I'm going to get one of these adapters you posted. I don't want to cut any wires. I'm quite clumsy when it comes to such things. As I said I'm an IT guy.

What do you mean by conversion cables?

If I don't forget it, I'm going to post whether it worked out for me. Just in case anybody finds this thread having the same problem.

[Richard_G]

Either get a straight adapter as Johnny suggested or one of these http://www.maplin.co.uk/module.aspx?ModuleNo=1041&doy=2m11
I've got a couple that I keep for connecting anything to anything else. No switching just 3 phonos connected to the input pins and 3 more connected to the output pins.

[chupacabra]

I tested the VHS-Player -> Adapater -> Composite -> Capture card scenario again and there is colour. So the case has been solved. It seems that the adapter drop the color only for the S-Video output jack. The Composite output is alright.

Unfortunately my Capture Card scr*wed up and crashes my PC all the time. Looks like hardware trouble. I always had problems with it. Guess I won't buy anything form Pinnacle again.

Thanks again for all your help and patience.

[Richard_G]

It isn't the adapter dropping the colour, as I said at the beginning of this thread, unless your VCR is an SVHS unit, it won't be outputting an S-Video signal. You will see composite on pin 19 of the SCART but no Chroma on pin 15. Hence no colour.