Are you bothered by mandatory program update requirements?

[yoda313]

I have yahoo music jukebox which I like and I have the subscription service. However it periodically forces you to update to the newest version or else you can't keep using it. The same thing happens with my Nintendo WII. It says you have to update or you have to turn it off.

Do these required updates bother you? Or do you just accept them to use the products? Do you purposely look for alternatives that don't dial home?

[Dv8ted2]

I have no problem with it. Software by it's own nature is insecure. To be as secure as possible, you have to always have the latest version.

[gadgetguy]

I haven't purposely looked for alternatives, but I don't think I use any products that require it because I hadn't really heard of it. The only software I allow to update itself is anti-virus. Everything else is updated if and when I choose. IMO you should never be required to update any software that is working for you as you want it to.

[freebird73717]

I used to have rhapsody. Worked great until they made you download drm software for the danged thing to work. I couldnt even install the drm. It kept telling me that there was a problem with my firewall/antivirus. I disabled all firewalls and a/v and still couldn't get the thing to work. I cancelled the service. Did me no good after the update. Couldnt download or play any music for the $13 a month I was paying.

I don't mind the upgrades if they work but you should be able to roll back to an older version that does work if there happen to be problems.

[Wile_E]

XBOX360, Wii, Anti-Virus and Firewall software.
For those things, it's probably best to force updates, because of all the dumb, stupid, lazy, uninformed, and computer illiterate people in the world. It keeps not only their systems secure, but also helps the community as a whole. ie. One less computer with a virus/trojan that is spamming others.

But for other non-essential software, the user should always have a choice in doing an update. Now for software that requires monthly activation to keep using it (ie. TMPGEnc), that's another story.

[JimJohnD]

Except for bug fixes I should be able to use the tool for as long as I want. If I buy a hammer I shouldn't be stopped from hammering nails just because there is a snazzier handle.

[painkiller]

It says you have to update or you have to turn it off.

If this is accurate, I would make a copy of their entire statement and send it to your State Attorney General's Office (Better Business Bureau).

This would be akin to Microsoft's latest update issue when you turn off the automatic updates.

It isn't their computer. It should be entirely under your control. Updating, or not, is up to you.

If corporate businesses act this way (inhibiting automatic updates) then you should be allowed the same level of control.

After all, why should you suffer from extra problems after an update if you weren't having problems before?

[dphirschler]

I've never heard of such a thing. Mandatory program updates? It does sound disturbing, but I've never encountered it.


Darryl

[painkiller]

From Windows Secrets Newsletter Issue 128 2007-10-25:

PC rebooting? The cause may be MS OneCare

By Scott Dunn

Installing Windows Live OneCare, Microsoft's downloadable security suite, changes the settings of Automatic Updates without notifying users or honoring their update preferences.

This behavior may explain reports that Windows has been mysteriously installing patches and rebooting itself, even though users had completely shut down the Automatic Updates function.


Users surprised by change to AU settings

I reported on Sept. 13 that Windows Update (WU) periodically installs a set of nine executable files without notice to users, even if Automatic Updates (AU) is set to "notify me but don't automatically install." On Sept. 27, I wrote that the executable files silently installed by AU starting in July prevent Windows XP from installing any security patches at all if XP was repaired using its original CD.

Many companies and individuals have a policy of carefully testing for negative side-effects in Microsoft patches before allowing them to be installed. It's particularly surprising for these users, who've carefully configured their Windows machines to install patches manually, to find that their machines have been updated and rebooted anyway.

A blog named AeroXperience posted comments on Oct. 10 saying Windows Update was forcing such reboots. Users around the globe wrote in to the blog's forum, saying their settings had mysteriously been switched to automatically install patches, and their PCs restarted at 3:00 a.m. (the default install time in the Automatic Updates control panel). Many commenters swore that they'd previously configured the control panel to prevent such installations.

AeroExperience blamed Windows Update for making the changes to users' systems. ZDNet blogger Mary Jo Foley repeated the accusation on Oct. 12, adding fuel to the fire.

In a response on Oct. 12, Microsoft Update program manager Nate Clinton denied that Automatic Updates had made any changes to users' AU settings. The posting was later updated to include several possible explanations, all of which include the user choosing to turn on AU when prompted by some software or installer.

But user choice plays no role in changing AU settings when installing Windows Live OneCare.

My finding is that Windows Live OneCare silently changes the AU settings. This explains at least some of the complaints that have been reported so far. Users could have installed OneCare — even a free-trial version — at any time in the recent past and been unaware of any changes until Automatic Updates forced a reboot in the wee hours.

In repeated tests on Windows XP and Vista, I installed Windows Live OneCare, which costs U.S. $49.95 per year after a 90-day free trial. In every case, OneCare changed a machine's Automatic Updates settings to fully automatic.

It did so even when Automatic Updates had been completely disabled. In Windows XP, this state is known as "Turn off Automatic Updates." In Vista, it's called "Never check for updates." In no case did the OneCare installer give any indication that a machine's Automatic Updates settings would be changed.

Worse, OneCare silently enables Windows services that had been carefully disabled using Microsoft's own configuration utilities (as I explain below).

Whereas OneCare is a downloadable and therefore optional security suite, Automatic Updates is a built-in service for patching Windows. AU is capable of downloading and installing updates from Microsoft at a preset time.

Windows Users can choose from four options for updates:

1. Automatic;

2. Download updates for me, but let me choose when to install them;

3. Notify me but don't automatically download or install them; and

4. Turn off Automatic Updates.

XP users can change these settings using the Control Panel applet called Automatic Updates. Vista users must first launch the Windows Update control panel and then click Change settings in the upper-left corner.

OneCare installer turns on disabled services

Surprisingly, the installation of OneCare silently changes Automatic Updates settings to automatically install patches and reboot the system, despite defensive measures a user might take to prevent this.

• Users are not warned of changed settings. Early in the installation process, users are invited to read OneCare's feature summary. They are informed that using the service means agreeing to the Microsoft Online Privacy Statement as well as the OneCare privacy supplement.

These documents mention the updating of OneCare's virus and spyware definitions, but they do not indicate any dependence on Windows Updates. Moreover, the statements say nothing about changing your Automatic Updates settings.

Pages at the OneCare site, such as Service Overview, state that the service "works with Microsoft Update." Similarly, another overview link at the bottom of the page displays a table of features that mentions "Microsoft Update integration." But again, users are not warned that their AU settings may be changed.

More important, no warning is given in the application during or after installation. Instead, the software simply reports: "Windows Live OneCare is up-to-date and your status is good."

An obscure online help topic for OneCare does admit to turning on Automatic Updates, but the information is buried under "Frequently asked questions about other updates for Microsoft programs" (click "What does Windows Live OneCare to do help manage and maintain my computer's software updates?"). But this hard-to-find paragaraph is hardly adequate notice to new users of the service.

• Services are affected, too. OneCare's installer even overrides settings made using the Services management console. Turning off Automatic Updates (using option 4, mentioned above) doesn't actually disable two related services, which continue to run in the background. Because these services might some day install something without authorization, many users run a utility called services.msc to disable them. In XP, one affected service is called Automatic Updates, while in Vista it's called Windows Update. The other service is known as Background Intelligent Transfer Services (BITS) in both versions of the operating system.

Even if these two services have been manually set to Disabled, the OneCare installer changes their startup type to Automatic and restarts them.

• The changes are unavoidable. The silent changes made by OneCare cannot be prevented by disconnecting a system from the Internet during installation. Doing so only prevents OneCare from being installed, since its installer requires an Internet connection.

Furthermore, uninstalling OneCare does not return a system's Automatic Updates setting to its previous state. AU remains set to install updates and reboot the PC automatically.

How to work around OneCare's settings change

If you wish to use OneCare, but you want updates to be installed only when you're first notified, the only workaround is to install the program and then change Automatic Updates back to your preferred settings. If you install OneCare when Windows is not likely to phone home, you should be able to change AU before any updates are automatically installed. (Installing OneCare at any time other than 3:00 a.m. should do the trick.)

After you've installed OneCare, it doesn't change your Automatic Updates settings again. But OneCare does flag the disabled Automatic Updates as an "urgent" matter that you should correct. In this situation, the OneCare icon in the taskbar tray turns a bright shade of red, which you may find annoying.

An alternative workaround is to buy and use security software other than Microsoft's.

In the past, to be sure, some third-party security applications have also had the problem of changing users' Automatic Updates settings. For example, the May 25, 2006, issue of Windows Secrets noted that Norton Internet Security silently changed Automatic Updates to automatic (if auto-updating was turned on in the Norton suite).

Since that time, however, most security applications have learned to refrain from tampering with user settings.

For the sake of comparison, I installed Norton 360, Norton Internet Security, McAfee Internet Security Suite, and the ZoneAlarm Internet Security Suite. The McAfee product and both of the two Norton products flagged Automatic Updates as a security problem if it was disabled, and provided ways to turn it back on, but none of them changed the setting. The ZoneAlarm suite did not note a disabled copy of AU as a problem, nor did it change the setting.

At this point, Windows Live OneCare appears to be the only major security package that changes users' preferences without notice.

If you have more information, we'd love to hear about it. Readers receive a gift certificate for a book, CD, or DVD of their choice for sending tips we print. Send us your tips via the Windows Secrets contact page.

[LOWTECH]

Never had a situation with a program thats forces me to have an update, an update maybe offered but not manadatery. If I encounter this in the future, I will choose to update or ditch the program for another to do the job, the choice will be mine.

[lordsmurf]

The Wii forces an upgrade to use it?

Note to self: Screw Nintendo. Play more Pong.

[gll99]

The Wii forces an upgrade to use it?

Note to self: Screw Nintendo. Play more Pong.

This needs clarification, it's on the Christmas list and there are no plans for an internet connection. Is this just fiction or some particular game? Need to know before spending the $400 bucks on a kid's Wii console and Mario startup game.

[Wile_E]

If you never hook a Wii to internet connection, you don't have to worry about updating it. Only if you log online with it, will it want to perform updates. Same for XBOX360. Think about it...All consoles playing online need to be at same firmware and software levels to play the games. It makes sense that it would require auto-updates. Same for any PC game you want to play online with others. You can't play different versions games with others and expect it to work.

[thecoalman]

Guess it depends on what's being updated for example I used to play BF1942 a lot, you had to install the latest patch for Punkbuster or you couldn't play online on servers that had it enabled. You have a choice at least, the game will function single player, or you could play on servers that didn't have it enabled... Not so sure I liked the way it worked as that sends a lot of specific system information to them, last I checked on their site not only were they banning installations but banning machines themselves. But that's something I'm willing to give up if it helps keep game play fair, nothing worse than playing a cheat.

On the other hand I recently had to get my Internet connection reconnected with comcast. Fire up the browser and I get the "You must install this active X" , then get "Your homepage will be reset Comcast.net" with no opt out option... WTF? And finally I need to install there desktop doctor to enhance my email and Internet experience... All said and done I had to reboot and the mother$$%%#$ browser starts at step one. Anyhow uninstalled all their crap rebooted and through the some sort of miracle I'm connected.. :P

[dadrab]

We've used Quicken for years - like ever since it came out. We started out with the basic package and used it for a couple of years. We then got a disc from Quicken saying that they were upgrading us to the "deluxe" package for free.

"Cool," my wife says and runs the disc. True enough, we had enhanced capablilities (which we never, ever used). A couple of months after that, I notice that Quicken began sending us messages to upgrade our package. Well, the program worked just fine, so we didn't do it.

Then, one day, it just stopped.

It wouldn't open and you certainly couldn't post anything to it.

A phone call provided the answer. "You didn't update your program."

"Why should I update it? It works just fine, or it did until yesterday."

"We've come out with a new version that's not totally compatible with our old version."

"And that's MY fault?"

"Well, sir, if you want to continue using Quicken, you'll have to upgrade."



It's just the way of things digital. We don't like it - I really don't like it. But, we'll all have to live with it.



I do like the advise to "play more Pong."

[thecoalman]

It's just the way of things digital. We don't like it - I really don't like it. But, we'll all have to live with it.

I wouldn't live with that, did the "upgrade" literature say it was for limited time trial period. Makes no difference once you install because the new database is now incompatible with the old one... Pretty shady no matter what the case is.

I'm using the same copy of Quickbooks that I started out with on Win98. You need to find a copy of MS VM to get it to work but other than that it works. No reason to upgrade, I don't use most of the features it has now. Export in the future is not a problem because I can export everthing to excel spreadsheet.

[dadrab]

[quote="thecoalman"]

I wouldn't live with that...

I wasn't going to, but we had so much time and energy invested in keeping it up-to-date and I didn't want to let the data slip away on pricipal.

I did, however, stir up such a stink at Intuit that someone must've taken note (several phone calls that got as high as the VP for maketing and development). I've never had that happen again.

I mainly used that illustration to show this type of behavior has been going on for years. It's nothing new.

"If you build it, they will come." And, if they don't come, I guess we know what we'll have to do...

[overloaded_ide]

I have no problem with it. Software by it's own nature is insecure. To be as secure as possible, you have to always have the latest version.

That's a false scam they push on people to brainwash them! Nothing is insecure unless you let it be. Simply don't connect the system to the internet and you are far more secure than any other way or any updates! I have 4 Computers in this house, only 1 is ever connected to the internet! The 3 that are not connected are the most secure even though they are running older software and many things not upgraded to newest patches etc.!!!

The only security problems are programs that access the internet. There is no reason EVER for a DVD authoring program to have to access the net. It either WORKS or it don't. Nothing about authoring a DVD requires a net connection, it's all offline work! So I have one computer online that I can download programs and updates if I choose, the other 3 can use those updates and files if I choose to install them. If I choose to NOT install them then the programs work just as good as they did last week or last year, I just may not have new features that may have been added, but I still have everything I originally bought and first installed. Maybe I don't want those new features anyway???

I refuse to ever connect those systems to the internet for any reason ever! Everything works and does what it was supposed to do!
The 3 NOT online are totally safe from spyware and hackers, and mostly safe from Virus ect... even without any new updates to anything. If they can't get to it they can't trash it! The only way to get a virus is an outside connection of some sort, install a disk/files with them etc.. A computer does not just get sick with a virus because the house is not clean enough or it had wet feet LOL
So just scan all external media and files well before putting them in the computer.

What bothers me most is when you have to have an internet connection to update or just phone home for a program that has NOTHING to do with internet itself. This is why I no Longer use Pegasys DVD Author nor recomend it to anyone!
They started some crap about it had to phone home randomly to verify itself. I complained nicely and mentioned I don't connect my work systems to the internet. The reply I got from the FOOLS was it only takes a few seconds so no big deal.
YES FOOLS!!!
Obviously they DON'T know what they are talking about. It takes a firewall to stop hackers, anti-virus programs, maybe anti-spyware too, some sort of internet service, hardware to connect to that service like modem or such, etc.. etc... and if I am working somewhere I do not have service then what? And why should I PAY for a service somewhere I don't want it just so the computer there can call home for a program that has nothing to do with the internet for the work I am doing with it?
So the FOOLS "think" it only takes a few seconds, it takes hours of installing updates and hardware and paying for a service that's not needed, so it can take a few seconds! Total cost for their phone home crap is more than the program was!!

This is a valid arguement against ALL phone home or forced updates! I travel allot. 1 place I go most years is to Moms house in the North for the winter. She goes to a warmer south home, I live in hers for a few months and enjoy the snow and harsh winters myself. When I am there I have no Phone or any type of internet connection! Yes I take my computer with me and do WORK without internet! If I need to make a phone call I go to the neighbors house down the road. If I need to download a file, very rarely, I drive into town to a internet hotspot with a laptop.
I run my cabin in the woods near home on Solar panels and batteries, no way I am having internet out there!!! But I do have a computer out there!
What about the times I been to Sea on a friends boat for months working on a computer??

ANYTHING that requires an internet connection that is not made specifically for internet only use should be outlawed!!! Even Anti-virus does not need forced updates. If you do not connect to the internet or a network that does and don't use strange un-known disks or drives there is no way to get a virus!

[CrayonEater]

One thing no one has considered here, or manufacturers for that matter, although Overloaded_ide has touched on it, is that many people run non-networked machines for security purposes. One thing I advise ALL my clients and customers, as well as anybody who cared to read my posts, is that, if you have extremely sensitive data, is to keep it on a separate machine that is not connected to the internet, or even a internal net, in any way. And a lot of people and companies do just that.

For over 12 years, I have run what I call an Isolate, a non-networked machine, to keep sensitive information like my company's and my personal financial information, as well as my contacts and other stuff. My current machine is a 2.4 Celeron I threw together, and the first thing I did when I got it was to go into the BIOS and disable the built-in Network adapter. It has no modem either. It has never, for one minute, been on the internet or a network, period. And I don't have to worry about malware, trojans, etc., because nearly all of that stuff is designed for stealing data, using your machine as a zombie, or serving advertisements. (Yeah, there are a few viruses out there that still corrupt files or wipe your drive, but they're extremely rare, and I back up regularly so I'm not worried even if I ever did get one of those.) The bottom line is, I don't have to worry about "security" threats, at least on that machine.

What a lot of manufacturers fail to realize is that the internet allows you to communicate with and obtain data from everywhere in the world. But the reverse is equally true; anybody anywhere in the world can potentially communicate with and access data on YOUR computer as well. It's not a difficult concept. Thus, smart people will recognize that the best protection, if feasible, is to prevent your sensitive information from being potentially AVAILABLE to the rest of the world in the first place.

[thecoalman]

That's a false scam they push on people to brainwash them! Nothing is insecure unless you let it be.

Well I can probably give you nemerous example where that isn't true. You simply can't expect a computer to be secure unless you unplug it from any network connection and never insert anything from an outside source which pretty much negates the benefit of having it in the first place. Just as a simple example you download a word document with a macro virus in it and open it on your ancient copy of Word susceptible to such viruses your infected. Another scenario is you get a virus on your one computer connected to the internet and it attaches to file which you in turn move to your "secure" computer and it gets infected. Just because you scan everthing doesn't mean anyhting, most virus outbreaks are the result of new viruses that can't be detected by anti-virus software.

[overloaded_ide]

sorry thecoalman
What you said is totally not logical at all in any way. But what I said is!!

You simply can't expect a computer to be secure unless you unplug it from any network connection

Wrong, I have 3 perfectly secure systems networked together, none of these have any type of outside connections, therefore the only way to access them is to break into my house and physically use them on site or steal them. No updates of any type or special programs of course will prevent that. Although I do use incryption stuff for some data in case they are stolen.

and never insert anything from an outside source which pretty much negates the benefit of having it in the first place.

Again wrong. I have 1 system that is totally up to date on everything I use, anti-virus, anti-spyware, etc etc. Anytime I need to insert external media/files onto a WORK system it is first scanned on the system that is fully up to date. If this system does not catch that virus or whatever then having the same up to date program on the work system would not have caught it either, so no need to run the same program and waist the time updating 3 systems constantly. 1 up to date system is all that's needed, though I do have more than one most times.
Also there is no reason all systems have to use anything from an outside source ever! Lets say you do accounting on a computer, you manually type info, scan papers, print files, etc... all your banking and business info is there, what do you HAVE to put on that system from outside sources that would harm it? NOTHING!
Last I know, you cannot get a VIRUS by capturing an analog tape. What do I need any outside stuff for? I take an analog tape, capture to computer, edit files, author DVD, burn disk. Once this computer is set up with all the software to do that and is working perfectly, how do I get a Virus on it??? I don't unless I put in some unchecked disk which I do not do!!
So yes the system is perfectly useful and does a great job doing what it should do and nothing has been Negated by NOT risking it to outside sources of harm!

Just as a simple example you download a word document with a macro virus in it and open it on your ancient copy of Word susceptible to such viruses your infected.

Ok I covered that above and second it here. If you download, borrow, steal, or what ever anything, it gets scanned on a fully up to date system BEFORE you put it on the work systems! If it makes it past Norton or Mcaffey, or AVG or whatever you use when you download it and scan it on that fully up to date system, then using your same up to date program on 7 other systems it will get past everyone of those also! So only one system MUST be up to date!
I do manually install the updates on offline systems though and run Anti-virus on them all, but only one needs it and only 1 is always up to date. I update the rest just when I feel like it or think about it.

Another scenario is you get a virus on your one computer connected to the internet and it attaches to file which you in turn move to your "secure" computer and it gets infected. Just because you scan everthing doesn't mean anyhting, most virus outbreaks are the result of new viruses that can't be detected by anti-virus software.

Again as the aboves, if that internet system is totally up to date it will catch everything any other system could catch, either the AV program detects the virus or it does not, does not mater how many time it's installed on how many computers, if it's up to date one 1 computer and does not detect a new virus it ain't gonna detect it on the other either!

Now, if some new virus is out there someday that steals all your personal banking info and such and it does slipp past your newest all best anti virus program totally up to date and say you install that to your work systems, it does not mater since they are never online!! How does a virus, trojan, spyware, or whatever call home if there is no net conections or models or such? It CAN'T!! So you could have a hackers program collecting data on you for 20 years, and no harm can ever be done with that data if you NEVER connect online in anyway, direct or networks that are online. No phone lines or modems, etc...
So the only thing you really need to worry about at all with a near total secure offline system is file corrpuption from a virus! And that can only happen if you are dumb enough to install it manually yourself right there in your own home or office!!

Just think of all the M$ patches for IE I never have to install!!! MS crap cannot get on to the net from any of my OFFLINE systems so on those systems I never need to worry about what the newest patch is today or what back door or security hole is being exploited most this week!
Sure I normally install the blaster patch and such anyway when I am doing system work like a new install or updating something. BUT the patch is totally un-needed since I can store all the E-mail addresses I want and Blaster can NEVER send fakes mails with my name and why is that? Because even if Blaster got on one of those systems there is NO connection to transmit data to the NET.
So again, I was the MOST secure and never had a problem when every-one else was in a panic about the blaster worm. All my contacts are stored OFFLINE and in plain text files on the online system. I'm not too lazy to cut and paste or type them manually, so I can read one file on the offline system and type onto this one, or for some I can open a text file and cut and paste on this one. Simple, easy, secure, and no worries about what trashy IE or Outlook most recent unfixed bug is. Malissa, Blaster, Love Bug, blagh blagh blagh, never got any of my contacts and never sent out fakes mails to anyone I know as being from me!

[thecoalman]

sorry thecoalman
What you said is totally not logical at all in any way. But what I said is!!

You simply can't expect a computer to be secure unless you unplug it from any network connection

Wrong, I have 3 perfectly secure systems networked together, none of these have any type of outside connections, therefore the only way to access them is to break into my house and physically use them on site or steal them. No updates of any type or special programs of course will prevent that. Although I do use incryption stuff for some data in case they are stolen.

and never insert anything from an outside source which pretty much negates the benefit of having it in the first place.

Again wrong. I have 1 system that is totally up to date on everything I

Let's stick with the single sentence and not take it out of context by splitting it up, the statement is:

You simply can't expect a computer to be secure unless you unplug it from any network connection and never insert anything from an outside source which pretty much negates the benefit of having it in the first place.

There is no if, an or but about it, That is true, period. I provided examples.. Now if they aren't networked of course your data isn't going to be stolen but that doesn't mean it can't be corrupted... the very first viruses were transmitted in just this fashion, not through network connections but through removable media like floppy discs. There was at least one instance that I'm aware of where a virus was included with legitimate programs unbeknownst to the company distributing it.

[overloaded_ide]

Let's stick with the single sentence and not take it out of context by splitting it up

Sorry, I didn't try to do that on purpose.

What I am saying though is you can have an internal network just fine, I have at home. It has NO outside connection, and therefore it can not be corrupted by any outside force without my doing it myself, and I am not an outside source!!

the very first viruses were transmitted in just this fashion, not through network connections but through removable media like floppy discs. There was at least one instance that I'm aware of where a virus was included with legitimate programs unbeknownst to the company distributing it.

Yes that is true. I have been computing since the late 80's and I remember that kind of stuff. Some Newbies don't even know that computers even existed before the internet! I used to run a BBS back before the internet existed.
But still what I said, if you scan the disks, files, external drive, flash drives, or whatever that contain new files on a system that is up to date, then you will catch any viruses before you install them on your network systems.
Always scan the files/disks on a system that is fully up to date before putting them on an out of date system!!

So today is 10/03/2007 and I use AVG for anti-virus. So if I scan a disk in this system either todays defs will catch the virus or it won't. Installing todays defs on 3 other systems is not going to catch anything they do not catch on this system.

[Dv8ted2]

I have no problem with it. Software by it's own nature is insecure. To be as secure as possible, you have to always have the latest version.

That's a false scam they push on people to brainwash them! Nothing is insecure unless you let it be.

Sorry, my security background disagrees with you. Crackers are always looking for security holes in software. That is why Acrobat, Winamp, and a slew of other programs continually get updated. There was a recent hole in Acrobat and there are infected pdf files circling the net right now.

The link below will prove my point.

source

[overloaded_ide]

Dv8ted2

I think people do not read or listen well.
I use Music match 8 or so not new upgrades, I use acrobat reader like 5 still, old graphic programs from WIN 3.1 days, and tons of other stuff that is very old and no updates, even WIN 98SE on a system with like IE5 and no patches.
Let's see you or anyone else tamper with any of those systems with old stuff in any way at all, without breaking into my house!
YOU CANNOT, that is security!
Connecting to the net for upgrades to anything IS NOT SECURE, you never know what new virus is out there that there are not new updates for yet, and connecting to the net may let a virus in even with the newest updates installed!

This is why there should NEVER be any required updates or software call homes that require a computer to be connected to the net, EVER. To do REAL work most things DO NOT require online access. Even building websites does not require Net connection, not untill ready to upload it, and for that you burn a disk then upload the files from a computer that does have access.

NEVER insert any media into any system that is not fully updated UNLESS you scan that media first on a system that is FULLY updated. This includes checking the acrobate files or anything else!

If I connect to the internet with a totally up to date system there is still a very good chance some hacker has found a new HOLE in M$ IE that has not had a new patch released for it yet, or was released since my last update, in this case even my totally up to date system could be hacked when online. No I don't use MS IE myself anymore though.

Total security is to NEVER connect the important computers online for any reason ever! I can download programs and updates manually, scan them on a fully upto date system, then install whatever I want on the other systems as needed. If this up to date system does not catch the problems then as I said, no other system will either anyway.

Do folks get the point now? If you own more than 1 computer, 2-25 systems, and you keep every system totally up to date on everything, if a BUG gets past 1 system then it will get past every system! So only ONE system really needs to be up to date! Think of it like locking your house when you leave! Do you have a lock on every door to every room and actually lock them all? I don't lock my kitchen door or bathroom door, not even the bedroom doors, I don't even have a kitchen door, but I do lock the doors to enter my home! I feel no need to lock all the inside doors. Either the outside doors being locked stops a thief or if he gets past those doors and into the house then locking any inside doors ain't going to stop him either. Same with computers, 1 system is the door, it either stops the bums or it does not.
Locking the bedroom door ain't gonna do no good other than stop a kid from walking in on you durring sex!

Also why do people think you always have to install media into every computer you own, doesn't anyone actually do WORK with a computer any more? Why do I need to insert anything into a system just to capture an analog tape, and do all the steps to author a DVD and burn it?
Why do I need to insert any media just to type in the checks and deposits and ballance my check books. How about to figure profits and loses for a business, type in the info as needed? Etc.. Etc.. why does a computer need to have net access or insert media to write a book?
I can do anything I want with the photo's I take, don't need net access for that either.

[Dv8ted2]

I think people do not read or listen well.

You, perhaps?

I offered a case that proved my point and you ignored it.


You are sidestepping the issue and pointing out irrelevancies. Never once did I mention not hooking up to the net. My original statement still stands. Software is insecure. I also was not talking about inserting media.

In this global economy and network that we use, most computers have some sort of internet connection. I am also a information security specialist. I pointed out one instance where my point was proven. I could provide more. Some people only have one computer, and most believe that a computer is useless without an internet connection.

In some cases, you do not even have to be using internet exploder to be vulnerable. This was a back door through acrobat.

If you own more than 1 computer, 2-25 systems, and you keep every system totally up to date on everything, if a BUG gets past 1 system then it will get past every system! So only ONE system really needs to be up to date!

That is warped thinking. All systems need to be up to date so that you do not get infected by something else. You are equating computers to your house and the two are not even remotely related. I am talking about a machine that deals only with 1's and 0's.

[fritzi93]

Except for bug fixes I should be able to use the tool for as long as I want. If I buy a hammer I shouldn't be stopped from hammering nails just because there is a snazzier handle.

I agree. If it's disclosed beforehand that there will be required updates, one can find an alternative. If it is NOT disclosed beforehand, shame on them. (And I don't mean buried in the fine print). I want the option to accept or decline updates, even if it's foolish not to. That's for me to decide, it's my computer.

[overloaded_ide]

You are sidestepping the issue and pointing out irrelevancies. Never once did I mention not hooking up to the net. My original statement still stands. Software is insecure. I also was not talking about inserting media.

I don't like to argue and I'm not really trying to start any fights, but your kinda the one not understanding what I am saying and perhaps getting a bit off topic of mandatory updates for programs. One thing is your saying security, I'm saying for anything. Far more out there than Security.
Maybe you never mentioned not hooking up to the net, BUT I certainly did way before your replies I think!!
Yes if your going to be hooked up to the net and using downloaded files you probably need to update stuff when there is a security risk, I do! It should be options to update manually, not forced, and for security. Not to force me to add new features to programs I do not want to add or to make the program obsolete or to force me to upgrade other things I don't want upgraded.

Often upgrading a program requires you upgrade something else on your system also, I should have the option to say NO and use the software as is. I forget the program now, but one of them tried to force me to upgrade other stuff, and when I did I had lots of problems with other programs no longer working correct, so I restored the drive backup and used the old version of the program instead of the new updated version. A forced upgrade would have screwed me on that. Nothing about security at all, it was to add something to the program I did not really need.
Most program updates are not for security anyway, it's to make some change to the program, add new features, detect newer hardware all stuff we can live without unless we just want to have it.
I don't care that Nero does not recgonize my DVD burners, sure lots of new updates and versions out, but for what I do it works just fine as is, I don't want anyone trying to force me to update or upgrade it for any reason. I never use Nero to burn DVD's, but I do use it to burn CD's sometimes and I need no new updates for that!

FACT, I don't care how buggy a program is for holes and security like your examples of Winamp and Acrobate, if I use those programs on a system that is not online or connected in anyway to online then I can CREATE all the files I want with out of date programs, even those 2, and never worry about anything, as long as the programs do work!
So I could in fact write this as a PDF with the buggy acrobat on a offline system then upload it from this system, no security risks even if the program in not secure. On this system I might run the newest upgrade in case I download something to read, then that new version will catch anything the update catches.
So I use Music Match Jukebox, I don't care about any security holes if there are any because I only use it on an OFFLINE system to play music and create MP3's from tapes, records, and CD's, and the CD's are scanned with up to date anti-virus and such on an up to date system.
Mandatory UPDATES would be something that might shut down those programs, then I could not use them at all if I don't update. There is no reason and never will be a reason for me to Update MMJ on my offline systems and I never will, unless I want some new feature that might be added someday. I think MMJ is version 7 or 8, certainly NOT up to date. I did look once to see what was new, was shocked to see they had ben bought out, I think yahoo, and I did not like the new versions, so I'll never update.
There is no security risk in creating new content unless you write your own viruses! Putting anything ONTO a computer is not creating new content it is moving content and there could be risks such as viruses trotans etc..

Title of thread,

Are you bothered by mandatory program update requirements?

EBAY Turbo2 trash is a fine example of this! Forced connection to Ebay every time it opens. I lost 1,000's of listing now because of this trash. I cannot open the old Turbo lister without a net connection so I can not export the listings from it. Turbo2 will not run on this system for some reason, never has! I even did a full new install and all updates to everything and Turbo2 was the first thing installed so no conflicts with other programs, it just will not open at all on this system. Many others have had similar problems with Turbo2 not working, so it's not just me.
NOW, on my other system NOT EVER online Turbo2 does open and looks like it would run fine, BUT because of that mandatory check for updates crap I cannot even get into Turbo2 listings at all because it forces me to update first and there is NO connection to do so! So I enter user name and it just sits there doing NOTHING! To connect to the net I would have to run new lines to the computer or move the system where I don't want it. ALSO I would have to risk all my work and secure files on that system by connecting it to the net, something I am not willing to do EVER.
So as it stands I have never really seen what Turbo2 looks like for making listings do to the mandatory updates stopping it from working on the offline system, perhaps if it worked I would see I may not even want to use it??

NOW, IF I could open Turbo1 I could export my 1,000's of listings, then IF I could get into Turbo2 I could import those listings! With EITHER Turbo I could simply copy and paste the listing info as needed if I could even get into them at all. SO, I could use the OFFLINE system to copy listing details of the items, paste into NotePad or publisher etc.. as plain text, save that file and open it on this system that is fully up to date then copy the item info as text into the online lister at ebay 1 item at a time to list them. NO SECURITY RISKS!!
I cannot do that do to MANDATORY UPDATES which I cannot do offline!
So one day I'll have to install turbo1 on this system again, a program that is discontinued and does not work, and see if connecting online to ebay will let it open, even though they don't use it anymore, then I MIGHT be able to export my listings, probably is not going to work though.

Take the EBay Turbo crap another step here also. MOST the mandatory updates are either Ebay adding crap I never use or don't want, and it does not effect the listing features at all most the time. Stuff like delayed listings or listing designer. OR item catagories changes, still not needed to create listings! All that stuff is checked by Turbo and Ebay when uploading listings anyway and if an error listing is refused. This is the exact same thing that happens if you used Turbo up to date last week and then ebay changes something like catagories this week, the old listings then have errors that have to be manually corrected. So NO, to make new listings or look through old listings already created Turbo does NOT need to be checked for updates every day, or 5 times in 1 day, like it actually requires if you open it 5 times.!
None of these regularly made changes by Ebay have anything to do with security, it's mostly adding junk or changing fees, etc.. crappy new backgrounds and all that stuff. And if a change is made for security generally only the system connecting to upload listings would need that update anyway. If something is important then I should have the option to manually install the updates as needed. The program SHOULD open without requiring to check for updates!
SO, if I could open Turbo without an online connection I could make my listings anytime anywhere I want and then export those listings to a file and then copy that file to this system and upload the listings when I want. I cannot do this because Turbo will not open and let me create listings without the online connection first to check for mandatory updates!!
SO, I used to use a program that DID work without internet connection, and I COULD go to the park in town and create my listings while the kid rode her bike and played on the swings. I cannot do that now because Ebay changes
caused the program to stop working, and I cannot connect to the net to check for updates while at the park even if Turbo 2 would run on my laptop. So again mandatory updates, in this case just mandatory checks for updates, has screwed me even if no new updates are out there!
"

Are you bothered by mandatory program update requirements?

!
YES!!
How would you like ALL of your programs to be this way like Ebay Turbo lister? There would be almost no reason for anyone to ever own a laptop, nothing would work at all unless you had a net connection.

The thread started as " Are you bothered by mandatory program update requirements?" and I give very valid reasons why we should be and some of us are! Ebay Turbo junk is a perfect example, it could work perfectly fine for offline creation of auctions listings, then import those listing into an up to date Turbo before uploading, any errors will be caught and can be corrected before uploads, as I say it's exactly the same as if you created the listings last week and ebay changes stuff this week! So there is a program designed for some minor online use that has a perfectly fine use offline also but cannot be used offline because of mandatory updates which in this case totally shuts down the program! I say minor online use because even on slow dialup it only takes a few minutes to upload listings, it takes all day to make them all though. So most the work is really offline work anyway if you could get it to work without checking for updates each time it loads.
Another thing is I cannot even look at a listing to see what I charged for shipping last time an item was listed or look to see what picture was used for listing it, because I cannot get to the listings without checking for updates! So where is any security risks in looking at my old listings for auctions I ran last week, last month, last year?? All still there in Turbo1 I think but I can't get to them to look because of mandatory updates on a program that they don't even update anymore or even use!! So I'm pretty much just screwed!

Certainly it is a good thing to keep anti-virus updated on all systems just in case a bad disk is inserted sometime.
But yes, for most real work many computers have no need to be connected to the internet ever! Many people are brainwashed into thinking they need a connection for everything, but you know there are actually many people in the world still using computers that have no internet at all and do just fine

I never need to connect to capture and author a video to DVD, And there is no security risk!!! I use older programs for much of it. Although I have Photoshop I never use it, I use a better program that I got when I used WIN 3.1!
Luckily no mandatory updates required because they sold out I think to Photoshop many years ago! Sure Photoshop may do far more junk I have no use for, but it lacks one major important feature, the tool I use most!!
This is another reason NOT to have mandatory updates, if I want to run an old O/S and use my OLD hardware then I need old software! The best scanner I ever owned ($300) worked perfect in Win 3.1 but did not work in Win 98, also my first video capture card, lots of good audio software etc.... I still have it all stored but not had an older system to run it on.
Some of that old stuff was far better than the new stuff though limited or slow. Being I just got some old computers and parts I am planning to build a WIN 3.1 system and see if my old software floppies will still install and if my old tape backups and drive still work or not. If it works there will be no security risks but it will be totally obsolete, but still does the work it used to do which is what I want.

I have old games that do not play on modern systems, Video files I created around 1994 but was no way then to get them off a computer so they have been lost, stored on a tape backup drive that will not run in WIN 98 or above.
Etc.. Etc... so no there should never be any mandatory updates for any software, we should always have the ability and option to go back in time and run our old hardware and software anytime we want! I plan to do that now after not having it for over 10years maybe more!!

If I can restore those old tapes to an old out of date system I think I can transfer them to my new system now. IF mandatory updates would have shut down those old programs I need forcing new updates on me then I would have lost the my option to try to get back that old data! And of course new modern updates would not work on such old systems. The first cartoon edit I ever did is still on a tape if it works and I can get it off. A capture and edit of a Public domain Betty Boop, colorized by me and with a modern CD music sound tack. If I can get it back I plan to convert it's format, author it and burn it to DVD.

We do need to think about such things now for in the future also, what if you move up to Vista or whatever comes next and you loose tons of stuff like I did because it does not work on newer systems, then you need to still have the option to run the old stuff if you ever want to like I want to now.
There is no security risks in doing this either. No matter how old or buggy the programs, without an outside connection no-one can hack it!
Today we have optical drives and such, so the problem I have now in getting back my large data files may not happen again, but back in those days there was no such thing as an affordable CD-burner and certainly no DVD burners!
Tape and floppies was it! So that large data file is small by todays terms, but it was massive back then.

[Nelson37]

I deal with at least two totally-insulated systems, no internet connection whatsoever, none needed, none wanted. I have in the past dealt with other such systems, one mandated by law, one where there were key-locks on the floppy drives.

Internet connection is totally unnecessary for many systems; others the security risk outweighs any minor benefit, some have theft issues, it is the user's choice. It is absolutely pointless to argue about whether or not such insulated systems are secure or desireable, there are people who want it done this way, IMO for good reason but that does not matter, it is their system and their choice.

I have a major accounting prog that is partially disabled by a Windows update, I recall at least two systems completely destroyed by XP SP2, requiring re-format. Updates should not be mandatory.

I just had a very long and loud discussion with my AT&T cell phone rep. A couple customers had reported an out of service message on my line. I was told that it was necessary to download updates to my cell phone in order to maintain basic functionality. Not new doo-dads, and not even the ability to send or receive. Callers get an "Out-of-Service" message. Do you have any idea what that means to a small business?

You must turn it off and back on after 2-3 minutes, at least once every 2 or three days. Failure to do this might result in a caller getting an "out of service" message. I was NEVER told this, it comes as a complete suprise. Impossible to calculate, but in 4 years I have probably missed well over one thousand dollars in lost business. ANGRY about Mandatory Updates?? That word does not begin to cover it. They are lucky they no longer have a local office in their name. I'd be there with a hammer.

[dadrab]

I deal with at least two totally-insulated systems, no internet connection whatsoever, none needed, none wanted. I have in the past dealt with other such systems, one mandated by law, one where there were key-locks on the floppy drives.

Internet connection is totally unnecessary for many systems; others the security risk outweighs any minor benefit, some have theft issues, it is the user's choice. It is absolutely pointless to argue about whether or not such insulated systems are secure or desireable, there are people who want it done this way, IMO for good reason but that does not matter, it is their system and their choice.

I have a major accounting prog that is partially disabled by a Windows update, I recall at least two systems completely destroyed by XP SP2, requiring re-format. Updates should not be mandatory.

I just had a very long and loud discussion with my AT&T cell phone rep. A couple customers had reported an out of service message on my line. I was told that it was necessary to download updates to my cell phone in order to maintain basic functionality. Not new doo-dads, and not even the ability to send or receive. Callers get an "Out-of-Service" message. Do you have any idea what that means to a small business?

You must turn it off and back on after 2-3 minutes, at least once every 2 or three days. Failure to do this might result in a caller getting an "out of service" message. I was NEVER told this, it comes as a complete suprise. Impossible to calculate, but in 4 years I have probably missed well over one thousand dollars in lost business. ANGRY about Mandatory Updates?? That word does not begin to cover it. They are lucky they no longer have a local office in their name. I'd be there with a hammer.

Yeah, the mandatory updates are bad enough when you know they're coming. It's that sneaky shit that really pisses me off.