Regretting my purchase of Windows Vista

[Dv8ted2]

"OverBloated Wannabe Internet Server", mayhaps?

+++++

As long as it does the job, who cares?

This is not about Apache vs. IIS

[lordsmurf]

"OverBloated Wannabe Internet Server", mayhaps?

+++++

As long as it does the job, who cares?

This is not about Apache vs. IIS

IIS works fine. In fact having Windows servers in a Windows environment is far easier for many folks, You can have easy network shares, and fully integrate Windows workstations, file servers, Outlook servers, storage servers and IIS servers pretty nicely.

I don't know what Linux can or can't do, but I do know from experience that MS gives great support to large institutions that adopt a full Microsoft platform. It's always the Solaris and Linux and others that are causing our problems. The machines simply don't want to work with Windows sometimes. Our Windows stuff is fine. THe only downtimes are third-party related (software or hardware), never the OS or native-OS functions.

I'm not being positive or negative here, just sharing some facts and experiences.

I'm pretty fond of Windows 2003 and IIS6, and I look forward to Windows 2008 and IIS7.

[CrayonEater]

Kept reading about, found out bad news on my basic Dell - has Vista Home Basic = cannot downgrade to XP per the EULA or Microsoft.

I suggest you return your machine then, and get one with XP. I think Dell will install XP Home for no extra charge. I get my machines with XP Pro so it's $99 extra, but I save almost that much in not needing 2 Gb of memory, so it nearly evens out.

If you really want to, you CAN install your own XP on your machine and make use of drivers available from the site, if they're still there. You technically would be violating your warranty, but the workaround is to reformat your HD using your recovery disk, which will put Vista back on, before sending your machine in for warranty service. I don't condone that, however, and, as I said before, you're better off just returning it. You do not have to agree to an oppressive EULA, and you can simply tell the manufacturer that you actually read it and declined to accept it.

[CrayonEater]

Does anyone know what computer manufacturers still offer Windows XP as a choice, instead of imposing Vista upon the buyer?

Dell and Acer are the only ones currently out there. HP is spotty but does not provide XP driver support for their recent machines.

As I told another poster, Dell is great about this. XP Home is usually available at no extra charge over the Vista versions of a particular comp (e.g. Inspiron, etc.) and they have great XP driver support, even for a lot of their Vista-only comps. They know a lot of people are getting pissed with Vista and reformatting with XP. It's worth noting that if you consider that you do not need to pay extra to get 2 Gb of memory that Vista essentially requires to run half-decently, the XP Home machine is actually cheaper, and if you opt for XP Pro, you'll about break even.

[Midzuki]

lordsmurf wrote:

I don't know what Linux can or can't do,

Me either. I was talking about Apache 1.3.x working within Win32.

++++++

[Dv8ted2]

lordsmurf wrote:

I don't know what Linux can or can't do,

Me either. I was talking about Apache 1.3.x working within Win32.

++++++

I was fully aware of what you were talking about. You are hijacking this thread and taking it in a compleyely different direction. The OP was not talking about web servers. He was talking about operating systems. Can we keep the discussion between the original parameters?

I was trying to say that Vista is not the bastard that people are saying it is. I think some are suffering from unrealistic expectations. I hear that it is bloated (too many times to count). It has to be "bloated" to support so many legacy objects. If you want legacy support dropped, then you have unhappy customers. Microsoft could rewrite the code and drop legacy code and people would still complain.

The driver issue is the fault of the hardware manufacturers. They have had plenty of time to get things right, but they chose to sit on their thumbs and do nothing. This is not Microsoft's fault.

The DRM that you keep harping about is a non-issue. Microsoft built support for it at the behest of the entertainment industry. This is negated by companies like Slysoft, so I suggest you find something else to complain about.

[lordsmurf]

What's legacy about Aero? That visual whiz-bang interface is easily the most bloated piece of crap in Vista. Amongst others.

[JohnnyMalaria]

Please quantify "most bloated piece of crap".

How much disk space does the Aero software take up and how much RAM does it occupy when running?

Aero is controlled via dwm.exe - not exactly a software blimp.

Every new MS OS has been damned as bloatware. I remember people bitching about DOS 4.0. Each version has prompted PC upgrades and further hardware developments leading to new OSes - and so the cycle goes.

A more useful comparison of OS size is to quantify it as a fraction of typical disk and RAM capacity of the contemporary hardware.

If someone doesn't want the bloat, he/she can vote with their two-buttoned mouse.

[lordsmurf]

Aero inhales your video RAM like a runner that just finished a 4-minute mile.

[Nelson37]

People bitched about IBM Dos 4.0 and MS 4.01 for very, very good reason. At the PC store where I worked at the time, company policy was that we would not, under any circumstances, install this piece of crap. We would sell it, but only with the very clear understanding that NO repeat NO support was included.

I still vividly remember explaining this very clearly to one of the very few people who insisted on it. I had to repeat the "no support" clause about one-half hour later when he called on the phone after being unable to install the POS.

As for DRM, why does a consumer OS contain code demanded by the entertainment industry? Does the supposed "negation" of this feature include disabling the constant checks performed by Vista for protected content?

Legacy support? You have got to be kidding me. What, did they make sure Asteroids or something still works, while neglecting productivity apps?

8 months after launch, comparing XP and Vista, Vista has managed to eclipse ME (relative to XP) by .03 percent. Wow, this is pretty close to beating a dead horse.

If you like it or your income depends on it, fine. For the rest of us, it offers nothing, lacks drivers, doesn't run critical apps, and is outrageously expensive, oh yeah, and demands more system resources. I just don't get why anyone would recommend this POS over XP, or 2000 even. At this point in time, if I had to make a choice between Vista and Win98, 98 would be the winner. If I had a brand-new, loaded PC, it might be preferable to ME. Maybe.

[thecoalman]

Hmmm, Aero claims it didn't inhale. On a side note it has also denied sexual allegations with the intel processor. :P

[thecoalman]

As for DRM, why does a consumer OS contain code demanded by the entertainment industry?

You just about answered your own question, its a consumer OS and as such must meet the major demands of the consumer market. One of which is that it will be able to play commercial video. How many people have you seen bitching in the past because XP doesn't have a MPEG2 decoder? Imagine if they couldn't play it all.

[Midzuki]

Dv8ted2 wrote:

The OP was not talking about web servers. He was talking about operating systems. Can we keep the discussion between the original parameters?

As you wish, sir. Without adding irrelevant and annoying dirty details to this conversation,
this time I will simply state that, IMNSHO, there are no important differences
between the light flavours and the heavy flavours of Windows Vista.

The DRM that you keep harping about is a non-issue.
Microsoft built support for it at the behest of the entertainment industry.

I'm sad to perceive Mr. Gates is not the actual boss of his employees.

==============

[Dv8ted2]

What's legacy about Aero? That visual whiz-bang interface is easily the most bloated piece of crap in Vista. Amongst others.

I was not referring to Aero. You can easily disable Aero. It is the other parts of the operating system that most people complain about being bloated.

[jagabo]

I'm sad to perceive Mr. Gates is not the actual boss of his employees.

Bill Gates loves DRM.

[thecoalman]

Bill Gates loves DRM.

I would think the opposite is true, it's most likely costing him money raising the cost of the OS and/or cutting into his profits.

[jagabo]

Bill Gates loves DRM.

I would think the opposite is true, it's most likely costing him money raising the cost of the OS and/or cutting into his profits.

No, it is all part of his grand scheme to secure Windows and Office. He hates piracy of his products. Hollywood is just a means to his end.

[lordsmurf]

Now that I think about it, Windows Vista was not going to really care about legacy support. That's part of why VirtualPC 2004 and now 2007 was made freely available.

I have Windows XP on a Northwood P4, and pretty much anything from the 1990s or before doesn't work. It either goes too fast, or it crashes, or won't load to start with, etc. Vista is worse off yet again. It gets worse each time. I have to load DOS/Windows 3.1 or Windows 98 inside of VPC (or DosBox), to make anything work well. I can scale back the processor that way, or the RAM, as needed. Too many resources confuse the crap out of older software.

So I'm not buying the "because of legacy" reason.

[JohnnyMalaria]

Sorry, but what you are saying is just utter bollocks. Really. You must be Buster Gonad.

Now that I think about it, Windows Vista was not going to really care about legacy support. That's part of why VirtualPC 2004 and now 2007 was made freely available.

Bollock #1:

Why the hell does Vista include the different compatibility modes and even automatically detect when an app launched in Vista mode doesn't run and offer to relaunch in a recommended compatible mode? It's worked for me many times.

I have Windows XP on a Northwood P4, and pretty much anything from the 1990s or before doesn't work. It either goes too fast, or it crashes, or won't load to start with, etc. Vista is worse off yet again. It gets worse each time. I have to load DOS/Windows 3.1 or Windows 98 inside of VPC (or DosBox), to make anything work well. I can scale back the processor that way, or the RAM, as needed. Too many resources confuse the crap out of older software.

Bollock #2:

The only application I haven't been able to run on Vista is Partition Magic. But I should have learned by now that for every new OS, a new PM is needed. Bastards (not MS).

I happily run applications from the 1990s. I don't have any requirement for real-mode DOS applications.

Your issues sound like you are trying to run legacy 16-bit applications. Are you running 64-bit Vista? Or are they real-mode 16-bit apps that make direct hardware accesses. Any restrictions on direct hardware accesses apply equally to Vista and XP. And Win2K. And NT4.

Just what apps from the 90s can you run in XP that you can't on Vista? Surely you still have to load DOS/Win3.x/Win98. I have a 7yr old 600MHz PIII laptop running Win2K - it imposes the same restrictions.

So I'm not buying the "because of legacy" reason.

OK. Don't buy the "bloat = legacy support" reason. But to claim Vista was designed not to provide legacy support is ridiculous.

And I notice you didn't/wouldn't/couldn't quantify how much bloat Aero causes.

BTW, Buster Gonad And His Unfeasibly Large Testicles can be found here:

http://chalkhills.org/cgi-bin/img?images/non/BagsOfFun.jpg

[Heywould3]

I just loaded VISTA last night. and i love it so far. it does use lots of ram. but that was the complaint with XP at first too. remember? i love the looks most of all.. and the dreamscene is awsome..the media center is cool and it works with my setup fine.. i did have some poping in the audio using the MS drivers it found durring an update. but i loaded a set off the main site and that went away. it found the drivers for my old nic card. and my onboard lan. im not 100% sure yet about the pci bus drivers and other mobo drivers. my biostar dont have an update for vista and the XP version on cd wont load. the computer seems fine though. my vid card is a 8600 GT and the drivers for that worked. its also played all my media even pipped cds ripped dvds converted video files in divx and xvid wmv etc. i havent had it not play anything YET. so i dont know when DRM is gonna kick in. i dont know about a loss is speed for gaming since i dont game.

my first impression is that i like it as much as i did XP or a bit more when XP first came out. im gonna keep the dual boot until i am 100% with vista.

[lordsmurf]

Press releases for VPC 2004 going free eluded to (some articles outright stated it) the shift away from backwards-compatibility and the use of the more modern emulation layers. I'm also not referring to somebody's blog or BS, but articles in IT trade magazines, and I'm pretty sure Redmond was one of them.

I've got any number of things that don't run from the 1990s. I'm not a robot, I don't memorize useless information, so don't ask for a list and expect some big elaborate answer. I half remember these acting up on me: Commander Keen 4, QBASIC running Nibbles, early web browsers (not Mosaic, it was fine), Lotus 1-2-3, Aldus PageMaker 4. These don't work on ME, XP or Vista ... or P4 as native CPU. The slower processors are needed, in an environment that matches the time period of the application.

Vista was not built for legacy ... neither was XP, for that matter .... it was built for tomorrow's systems. You simply need to look at the hardware requirements to catch that one. Some backwards compatibility is there for sure, but it's not the most important aspect of the OS or even one of the top few reasons.

[JohnnyMalaria]

Out of curiosity, why do you use Lotus 1-2-3?

[ofbarea]

Out of curiosity, why do you use Lotus 1-2-3?

Before IBM dropped the support of Lotus Smart Suite, I used 1-2-3 just because it was bundled together with Word Pro.

Features I do not like about Vista is the lack of native support of EAX, Vista IP stack has greater latencies (UDP) than XP counterpart and the bugs related to Intel raid controllers and some disks that to not affect XP or W2K...

[Dv8ted2]

I know I will catch some flack, but I am starting to have a change of heart regarding Vista. I looked like an idiot at work a few minutes ago when I tried to send a publisher file to a Dell 5100cn printer and there is not a Vista driver for it. The XP driver does not work in compatibility mode. I keep getting a repeating loop saying that publisher will now close.

[JohnnyMalaria]

Would this help?

http://www.techspot.com/drivers/driver/file/information/8740/

(142MB of printer driver - sheesh!)

[Dv8ted2]

Thanks

The wrong file size is reported on that site.

The file size is 78.3KB

[lordsmurf]

Out of curiosity, why do you use Lotus 1-2-3?

I don't "use" it, but sometimes it's needed to work with old files. Not everything of yesterday can still be imported. Most software only supports a couple of previous versions, not all of them.

[Heywould3]

EDIT: never mind

[mohammedomer1]

Hey yall...
been with vcdhelp/videohelp for about 5 years now...
don't post-a-lot but read-a-lot...when i saw this one, i HAD to post...
i got a toshiba laptop core2duo, with 2 gig ram....had vista....used about 2 weeks before i wanted to set it on fire.....it had sata hdd...went thru combing hundreds of forums and finally installed xp on it a week ago...i am so happy to downgrade ....
games are amazing...no complaints...vista is like win me...
but I love XP and finally i think it was money well worth spent..not with vista but with xp

[ofbarea]

I don't "use" it, but sometimes it's needed to work with old files. Not everything of yesterday can still be imported. Most software only supports a couple of previous versions, not all of them.

This is so true. These days I have a virtual machine running Win3.11 just to run Ami Pro as this old software is one of the few that was able to open Smart, WordStart and some other antique formats.