VHS and Hi-8 conversion

[maeks84]

Hello all,
I'm preparing to convert our VHS tapes and Hi-8 tapes to digital. All I have for playback hardware at this point is a basic 4-head VCR. At least some of the VHS tapes have a line of static across the top. So, based on what I understand, I need a TBC. What I'm thinking is a JVC SVHS VCR such as the HR-S9800U since this would also playback the tapes better. (4-head compared to 19-micron)

I wonder though, if I would be better off just buying a separate TBC for when I start converting the Hi-8 tapes? I have no idea what condition the Hi-8 tapes are in. (I'm trying to find someone with a camcorder I could borrow for a while.)

I guess, what I'm trying to find out, is if I can the features of a VCR to fix potential errors in the Hi-8 tapes? (Like a passthrough device.) If not, I would likely be better off buying separate devices?

Thanks for any help,
Matthew

[Marvingj]

First you need to find out what condition the tapes are in. That would indicate rather you need to spend money on other devices.

[maeks84]

Well, I know that the VHS tapes need a TBC and I think the other filters on the 9800 would be helpful. (From what I've read, I think that the 9800 would do enough for my requirements.) The Hi-8 tapes have been stored well. Cool and dry. So they should be in good condition.

I'm trying to find a camera capable of playing them back. I just keep thinking someone in the area has one that I could use. I initially thought all I would need was a computer with a capture card, but soon found out different, so the cost of this project is going up more than I wanted... But anyway, if the TBC (at least) on the 9800 would work on the Hi-8 tapes (if needed), I would go ahead and get the VCR and start with the VHS tapes.

Should I change my thoughts and just put off on the VCR until I find a camcorder?

[thecoalman]

They make digital-8 camcorders that have passthrough and the ability to play hi-8 tapes which will take care of the hi-8 tapes and give you capture device for the VHS. From there you will only need what is required to get the VHS to the cam, e.g VHS deck and a TBC if needed. Note that some of the cams themselves have internal TBC's. Sorry I don't know any specific models but they exist.

The only issue you may run into is if the hi-8 tapes are in poor condition and the digital cam cannot correct the errors, you won't be able to run the signal through a external TBC...

[maeks84]

I'm confused. Your saying that the tapes might be so badly damaged that anything outside the camcorder (VCR, TBC, or VCR w/ TBC) wouldn't do any good? And therefore the video on the tapes would be lost? or at least I wouldn't be able to improve the quality with external devices after the cam?

Your also saying that certain camcorders, if they have an internal TBC, would work to improve the VHS tapes? (VCR > Camcorder > Capture Card) But you don't know if a VCR, with an internal TBC, would help to improve the Hi-8 tapes. (Camcorder > VCR > Capture Card)

I'm not really sure that I understand how an external TBC works. Lets say I have a VCR connected to a TV via RCA Composite cables and play a tape that has a line of static across the top. (Can't adjust the tracing enough to get it out) I could either get a better VCR, OR I could get an external TBC, connected with RCA cables, to remove the static?

Just a note, a friend contacted me this morning saying that they had a Sony Hi-8 recorder that I could borrow sometime in the future. Thanks for all the help so far.

[fredfillis]

I've been working on a similar project for almost a year now with Hi8 and some VHS. Some of this is 20 years old. I had some similar concerns when I started.

In my case, what I found was that of the say 200 hours of video I've been working with, only a very tiny amount of the total was less than good. So, I arrived at the decision that I would not get wrapped around the axle about that tiny portion, I would deal with that as a separate issue.

In most cases, where there was static at the top, I've just cropped the footage.

I'm just using a standard VCR / Hi8 camera into a canopus ADVC 300 into the PC via firewire. Capture with Scenealyzer and Vegas is my NLE. I also use a raft of freeware stuff for problematic footage on a case by case basis

[thecoalman]

I'm confused. Your saying that the tapes might be so badly damaged that anything outside the camcorder (VCR, TBC, or VCR w/ TBC) wouldn't do any good? And therefore the video on the tapes would be lost? or at least I wouldn't be able to improve the quality with external devices after the cam?

Sorry for the cofusion, first whether any damage or errors can be fixed really depends on what the problem is. I'm assuming you are cofused by this statement?

The only issue you may run into is if the hi-8 tapes are in poor condition and the digital cam cannot correct the errors, you won't be able to run the signal through a external TBC...

Let me back up and explian, I'm suggesting you get a digital-8 camcorder with both passthrough and capable of playing hi-8 tapes because you can convert both the hi-8 and VHS tapes with it. No need for a capture device or another cam. The cam converts the analog to digital and hooks to your computer via firewire. In the case of the the VHS tapes you would hook the VHS deck to the cam, you could place a external TBC between the VHS deck and the cam if you wanted. The hi-8 tapes on the other hand are going to be inserted directly into the cam so if you had a TBC you couldn't use it for them becsue the video is passed directly to your computer, there's no where to link it in the chain.

You of course can get mini-dv cam with pass-thru but you would also need a hi-8 cam, in that case if you had a TBC you would be able to place it between the hi-8 cam and the mini-dv cam.

I'm not really sure that I understand how an external TBC works.

A TBC corrects timing errors, it's irreplaceable if that is what is causng your problems. You won't get someone on here to say it will or will not correct problems you may have, you will get a lot of maybes..., in other words its a crap shoot. :P : There's great explanation on what a TBC does here.

https://www.videohelp.com/forum/viewtopic.php?p=1115672#1115672

Just a note, a friend contacted me this morning saying that they had a Sony Hi-8 recorder that I could borrow sometime in the future.

If that's the case and your in the market for a new mini-dv that's definitely something to consider.... Just trying to save you some cash so you don't buy uneccesary things.

Before purchasing a TBC I would first decide on a capture card/method and good deck like one of the JVC models. If you still can't get a good capture move onto a full frame TBC. Being able to provide a short sample of a captured clip that shows the problems you are encountering will allow other posters to better determine what you can do to fix it.

I have guide here if you want to read it that will give you some deatialed info on what you should know before purchasing anything:

www.nepadigital.com/articles/analog_capture.php

[thecoalman]

I'm just using a standard VCR / Hi8 camera into a canopus ADVC 300 into the PC via firewire.

Note that the ADVC 300 has a LTBC , this can help with vertical jitter and skewing. It's not as powerful as full frame TBC which can correct both horizontal and vertical jitter but nonetheless still a nice feature.

@OP , also note that most of the TBC's in cams and decks also LTBC's and not full frame TBC's. Full frame TBC start around $350 last time I priced them.

[maeks84]

Yes, that statement was what confused me. I understand now why the TBC wouldn't work in that scenario. What might make a difference, though, is that I already have a PVR-150 for a capture card. Initially, I thought this would be all that would be needed and went ahead and bought it and the components for a MythTV box. The tape conversion was the biggest reason for the project. My goal was to keep the project under $500. I managed to get a remote, capture card, and other components for that, but I didn't realize that I would need more than that. Would've gone another route, I think...

Here's a few videos of what I think most of the tapes have for errors. I think most of the pixelation is due to the compression, but they should give an idea of what I'm facing. (I can put up the originals if needed.) The "Butterfly" tapes are the worst that I've found.
Butterfly 1 - http://www.divshare.com/download/2423866-8d7
Butterfly 2 - http://www.divshare.com/download/2423867-659
Test 3 - http://www.divshare.com/download/2424264-c58
Test 4 - http://www.divshare.com/download/2423869-7f8

The way I understand, it seems that a TBC would give the best chance of fixing these errors. If so, I guess the question is, would it be better to buy a better VCR w/ a TBC or an external TBC? If the TBC built in the VCR would potentially work with the input from a camera, it seems that that would be better since the VCR would have higher quality heads and other features as well? But I'm very new to this all....

Just to clarify, what I have at this point is a Fisher 4-Head VCR that connects to a PVR-150 Capture Card.

[Marvingj]

You seem to have tracking problems & jumpy video, a Video stabilizer will fix that. Colorfill will fix some of the color in the video.

[thecoalman]

it seems that that would be better since the VCR would have higher quality heads and other features as well?

That would be my next step for the second reason, whether it will help with the skewing those tapes have is debateable. If the JVC model you are looking at has the DNR feature that can work miracles as far as correcting noise. I had some sample footage I can't find at the moment but the difference for my particualar tape was amazing to say the least.

[handyguy]

Cassettes need to be stored on their sides. If stored bottom top or down you can create folds.

[maeks84]

Most of the tapes have been on their side. Some had been laying down for at least a couple of years.

The camcorder I'll be able to borrow is Sony Video Hi8 CCD TRV 68. This model apparently has a TBC as well as a DNR feature.

The JVC HR-S9800U has DNR, a TBC, and a Video stabilizer. So I guess I'll go that route and see how it turns out. See if I end up needing a full-frame TBC, hope not. Since the cam has a TBC and DNR, using the VCR a passthrough device probably wouldn't help much, I guess.

Thanks, everyone, for your input and help.