If Womble is so great then why the shakiness of video?

[jbitakis]

Everyone says that Womble is sooo great. Well I have Womble MPEG video Wizard DVD v.12 and yes it worked great editing the part off my video that I did not want, but then I saved it and encoded it for DVD and then burned it and the people look shaky or jittery to me. I mean windows movie maker-then-convertxtodvd seemed to do a better job. I used variable bit rate and a high bit rate of 8000-9000. WHat do I do wrong and I thought that WOmble is the best because it encodes in the last phase. THis video was originally taken on a sony hi-8 and captured onto my computer with usb 2.0
James

[manono]

I don't use Womble myself, but I don't quite understand why you're blaming it for the problem. As far as I know, it doesn't reencode anything except right around the cuts if necessary, so any problems would have either been there from the beginning, or created by you later on. What your problem sounds like to me is an incorrect field order being set when encoding. If you'd like to make a small piece of the result available for us to download, we might be able to tell you for sure what happened.

[jbitakis]

Sure, how do I do that though?
James

[thecoalman]

WHat do I do wrong and I thought that WOmble is the best because it encodes in the last phase. THis video was originally taken on a sony hi-8 and captured onto my computer with usb 2.0
James

Don't have womble either so I can't tell you how but as mentioned above if you're capturing as MPEG you don't need to reencode which is why people like it. The final quality is determined by the source.

What device and format are you using for capture?

[manono]

Sure, how do I do that though?

Do what? Cut a piece for upload? Lots of ways. I use DGIndex for the job. Open a VOB or M2V or whatever, and use the [ and ] buttons to isolate a small piece. 10 seconds will be more than enough. Then File->Save Project and Demux Video. Upload the resulting M2V to MediaFire or some other free file hosting service and give us the link:

http://www.mediafire.com/

Set the field order when encoding? Depends on the encoder used. I use CCE and it's easy enough.

Change the field order? Demux if you only have it in VOB form and use ReStream on it, is one way.

[jbitakis]

Well I needed to edit the video that I captured onto my computer using the capture wizard 3.0 by ADS. I captured the video from my sony hi-8 using the analog (red,white,yellow) cables from the camcorder going to the cap wiz and from the cap wiz to the laptop using usb 2.0
Once on my laptop it is saved as a MPG file. I cannot just burn it to dvd. It needs to be encoded to dvd. So I do not understand what you mean by saying that it does not need to be encoded. I needed also to edit it, which I used Womble for, then encoded to dvd, then burned.
James

[manono]

Once on my laptop it is saved as a MPG file. I cannot just burn it to dvd. It needs to be encoded to dvd.

Not necessarily. If the video is already DVD compliant (720x480, 29.97fps), then you're OK. At the most you might have to demux back to elementary streams (separate audio and video, DGIndex again). Check if the Audio is 48,000Hz as required for DVD. Some authoring programs might even accept the MPG as is. Not mine, though.

[thecoalman]

So I do not understand what you mean by saying that it does not need to be encoded.

MPEG is DVD providing as mentioned its DVD compliant MPEG .... The file created by your MPEG capture device can be used directly on the DVD, the difference is that it has to be authored as DVD. File names are changed and some specifics are added for DVD but the video itself remains unchanged. DVD authoring software takes care of all this in the background.

Look to the left and click DVD under "What Is"

[jbitakis]

To the coalman, what dvd authoring software should I use, or what one do you recommend?
What if, I want to edit the video 1rst, don't I then need to encode it again, because womble seems to take you to that next step (encoding) after you edit the video.
James

[jbitakis]

Also, what does it mean; Authoring your video as dvd???
James

[thecoalman]

What if, I want to edit the video 1rst, don't I then need to encode it again, because womble seems to take you to that next step (encoding) after you edit the video.

It only encodes the frames you have edited or added such as where you have added transitions.

Authoring refers to making a DVD that can be used in a DVD player, you have assests like your MPEG video. You create menus and other things...

Not familiar with Womble but if it doesn't have authoring ability you can try Ulead Movie Factory.

[guns1inger]

Womble Video Wizard DVD can author. The standard Video Wizard cannot.

Under normal circumstances, Womble doesn't re-encode the video. However, it depends on what else you change as to whether or not it may be forced to. The symptoms you describe sound a lot like a reversed field order.

Can you check the following for me. Open Womble and load your video. Click on the Export button, and then on the Video tab. Click on the button marked Expert and look at the bottom of the dialogue that opens. The last option should be Field Order, and it should be set to No Change. Can you confirm that this is how it is set, and if not, change it back to No Change. While you are there, make sure Adaptive Deinterlacing is not ticked. Womble's built in Deinterlacer is awful.

[jbitakis]

To Guns1inger:
Here is my womble settings:
The deinterlacer is not on.
The field order is set to No change.
So it looks as if that is ok, right?
James

[tinker]

I use Womble, but you may check one thing there. Under Export settings see what video is set for bitrate, by default it has menu at 8000kbs, but video at 1500kbs. Change it to 8000 before compile.

[jbitakis]

Actually the bitrate was set to 9200. So it should have come out OK.
James

[thecoalman]

Changing bitrates on video that is already MPEG negates the biggest advantage to using Womble in the first place which is to not reencode the video except where you have made changes. It's hard to screw something up if you don't do anythng to it.

[jbitakis]

To the coalman: What are you saying about WOmble? What did I do wrong? I only set the bitrate to 9200 in order to have it clearer. Yes, the video got captured as MPEG but I needed to edit part of it and then it needed to be authored to DVD and burned in order for me to watch it in my DVD player.
James

[thecoalman]

I don't have the product so i can't tell you the specifics on the how to do it with Womble but the video that you author for DVD is MPEG . You only need a DVD compliant MPEG to start with and Womble will only re-encode the parts you have edited providing you have made the right selections in the options. For example if you have a length of video with commercials in it and cut out the commercials and add a transition between the clips the only parts that are re-encoded are the frames affected by the transition. the rest of the video is the exact same frames from your source. There is no change. The quality of the end product depends solely on your source not Womble. The other benefit is this speeds the process up quite a bit.

If you are selecting a bitrate that differs from the bitrate of your source Womble has no choice but to re-encode the entire length of the video. Just to add it can't get any better by selecting a higher bitrate, if your source is 4000kbps and you select 9000kbps this is not going to improve the quality of the video and in fact will most likely degrade the video although it won't be much.

The highest quality video you are ever going to have is the source capture, everything after that is downhill. So to answer your question again, that is why Womble is so great for the purposes of editing MPEG.

[jman98]

It is possible with MPEGVCR and presumably other Womble products to make it re-encode video, but this is NOT how it normally works and it is NOT default behavior. You have to manually make it do this.

My guess is that the original poster made Womble re-encode his video and he has a field order problem.

[MysticE]

If you are selecting a bitrate that differs from the bitrate of your source Womble has no choice but to re-encode the entire length of the video. Just to add it can't get any better by selecting a higher bitrate, if your source is 4000kbps and you select 9000kbps this is not going to improve the quality of the video and in fact will most likely degrade the video although it won't be much.

That's not the case. I compile music vids that I have encoded at various bitrates with various encoders. Usually in the 6000 to 7000 range. With Mainconcept I use CBR at 7000, with HCenc 6500 VBR and sometimes Nero at 7000 VBR. I use Womble's default of 8000 VBR (at least it appears to be it's default) and it never re-encodes the video. It will only re-encode if I choose a lower bitrate than my clips or if I choose CBR. The OP should check to make sure his Framerate (PAL/NTSC) and Image Size settings are correct. It's easy enough to see if it will re-encode, just make sure the 'V' bar is blue as various setting are chosen.

[thecoalman]

That's not the case. I compile music vids that I have encoded at various bitrates with various encoders. Usually in the 6000 to 7000 range. With Mainconcept I use CBR at 7000

Do the file sizes change when you go from 6000 to 8000?

[MysticE]

That's not the case. I compile music vids that I have encoded at various bitrates with various encoders. Usually in the 6000 to 7000 range. With Mainconcept I use CBR at 7000

Do the file sizes change when you go from 6000 to 8000?

On an 11 clip project I just fired up.

8000 VBR, no re-encode 1.81 GB
7000 VBR, 2 clips to re-encode 1.79 GB
6000 VBR, all but one clip to re-encode 1.44GB (probably a MC encode where I forget to change the CBR default of 6000)

8000 CBR, all to re-encode 2.15GB

All audio is always normalized and converted to 2 channel AC3 at 256 kb/s.

Note some of the music vids I don't have to convert. Most are usually 25fps converted to 16:9 NTSC (cropping out any bars). They consist of all different flavors, AVI (Xvid/Divx), MKV, MPEG, x264, and VOB.

[thecoalman]

I'm not sure that answers my question, what I'm asking is if you use a 6000kbps video as your source then select 8000kbps as the output does the file size change?

If it does then you have reencoded the video, If it doesn't could you please post some short samples

[Megahurts]

I can verify that a 6mbps sorce file authored at 6mbps and 8mbps will be the same size. It makes no sense to re-encode to a higher bitrate.

Howerever, if the transitions and effects were never rendered in the edit program, they will be encoded at the set bitrate of the authoring program. So the file size will vary slightly.

[thecoalman]

I can verify that a 6mbps sorce file authored at 6mbps and 8mbps will be the same size.

Authoring and encoding are two seperate things, title sets can have different different bitrates, resolution's or aspects. What I'm interested in is if you combine two clips as per my example and they have different bitrates does it reencode.

[lordsmurf]

Womble MPEG Video Wizard has a DETAILS button when you go to save output, and it shows what is being kept, and what is being re-encoded. There's no guesswork here.

If you take two different videos and merge them, then everything is being re-encoded. You must have matching MPEG files to merge. The problem here is Womble is a great editor, but a lousy encoder.

The other problem is non-matching MPEG may have a mix of progressive, TFF and BFF interlace, and therefore the least common denominator (deinterlaced progressive) is the output.

Womble largely goes off the file header for some of this info. I've tricked it a few times, when the source file was only barely different.

[MysticE]

I'm not sure that answers my question, what I'm asking is if you use a 6000kbps video as your source then select 8000kbps as the output does the file size change?

If it does then you have reencoded the video, If it doesn't could you please post some short samples

With Womble at 8000kbps my project is not re-encoded.



The 2 red lines in the Video bar are fades which will be re-encoded (only that). The audio has been normalized and set to 2 channel AC3 at 256 and is all re-encoded, just the normalization triggers an audio re-encode. Exporting this project to DVD takes about 6 minutes on my AMD 2600+ rig.

If I set Womble to 6000kbps everything except the one 6000kbps clip would have to be re-encoded.



I just took a single 190,986KB sized music vid that GSpot reports as 6843kbps with 2 channel AC3 at 224kb/s. I ran it through Womble, again leaving it at 8000VBR but choosing to normalize and convert the audio to AC3 5.1 at 448kb/s. The conversion took 52 seconds. The size increased to 195,946KB. GSpot now reports it as 6855kbps with 6 channel AC3 at 448kb/s.

It would appear that as long as the Womble bitrate chosen is higher, no video re-encoding will take place.

I hope all this makes sense. I really like this app.

[thecoalman]

I think you're missing the point and due to my ignorance on how Womble works I could have worded it better. If I select a bitrate of 8000kbps in a application I expect the application to do just that. Instead it appears that selection is a threshold for the title sets, e.g if you select 8000kbps it will only reencode if the video bitrate of your source is over 8000kbps or whatever other factors may cause it to kick in like switching between VBR and CBR. so you are correct it doesn't reencode but you're not creating a 8000kbps video either.

That setting really has nothing to do with with encoding but more to do with the authoring. what you have is multi VTS authoring application that can use different bitrates and presumably resolutions and aspects for different title sets. Nice feature I might add usually not found in most authoring applications.

[MysticE]

so you are correct it doesn't reencode but you're not creating a 8000kbps video either... That setting really has nothing to do with with encoding but more to do with the authoring.

You have said in the past that MPEG is the wrong format for editing. I would assume partly because of re-encoding issues. A few apps have popped up to address this issue. The beauty of Womble is that it avoids re-encoding at all costs. The OP seemed to have re-encoding issues, something I have not experienced. I know that my project wasn't going to be 8000kbps as I am not letting Womble handle the encoding chores, nor did I want it to be. I was simply trying to show how for me the program produces/maintains nice (original) quality video while still allowing for edits, transitions, fades, audio conversion and normalization.

[thecoalman]

You have said in the past that MPEG is the wrong format for editing. I would assume partly because of re-encoding issues. A few apps have popped up to address this issue. The beauty of Womble is that it avoids re-encoding at all costs.

Im aware of that fact and stated it in my first post, again its my ignorance as to how that particualr setting in Womble works. I assumed it was an encode setting but instead it's a threshold setting. Any decent authoring apllication will allow you to author compliant video without reencoding and in the case of some like DVDLab Pro that selection wouldn't exist because they don't have the ability to encode.