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  1. Member
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    The unfortunate reality is that things like this go in cycles. The two limits are defined by human greed on one end and human desperation on the other. When many of the mills, factories etc. were first established, people badly needed the jobs and were happy to work for low wages. But as things prospered, greed took over. People demanded more and more money, perks, benefits, pensions and on and on the money grab continued. The corrective consequence of all of this was inevitable. So after these avaricious workers finish killing the company that feeds them, they lose their job. That's just the way it goes.

    Utopia aside, it just isn't possible to endlessly increase wages and benefits without ultimately rendering a company hopelessly non competitive. The ultimate dues for this is either the company is forced to shut down --- or move its factory somewhere else where the labor force will work for much less money. This problem is made even worse when government wants to tax the business heavily. There's no magic here. If the market price for a widget is $50 and that widget has three hours of labor to make it, it stands to reason if the labor cost due to high wages is $75, the company has a fundamental problem. $75 in labor cost for a $50 widget doesn't pencil out very well! On the other hand, if the labor cost is $10, the business can continue to operate.

    Unfortunately some people's eyes are blinded by social and political agendas and they can't, or don't want to see this. After all, if they "see" this, they might not get elected next time ---- the social candidate the workers vote for are those that want to "give" them a bunch of stuff.

  2. Originally Posted by lenti_75
    it's all about money...period.
    they go where they can get more for the same thing. and anybody would do it.
    Capitalism at its finest!

  3. Member oldandinthe way's Avatar
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    Originally Posted by ozymango
    And that's what it comes down to -- profit. As you and others have noted, it's not worth it, on a bottom-line scale. You personally would have "tolerated greater pollution" but that's a personal value judgement that others may not agree with. I certainly don't agree with that; there's no need to tolerate any more pollution in this world than we already "tolerate," and it's not necessary to tolerate pollution just because people don't like spending money.

    But that point is moot -- in a country such as the US, the fact that we can design all this incredible technology but can't figure out how to help transition mill workers into other jobs that afford a good life for them and are environmentally sustainable shows how far we still value your average human being less than a good DVD player.
    It is possible to create mills without pollution but that means building new mills. And when one has to decide where to site new mills, the US is generally not where one chooses. It has little to do with labor, but much to do with money. Modern mills and factories require fewer, rather than more skilled workers. They can be placed almost anywhere that is willing to have them. In many American cities which provide the transportation and other forms of infrastructure, the approval process for new construction is difficult if not impossible. Property taxes are high, unless there is an accomodation with the municipality, and financing expensive (unless the municipally provides industrial development bonds). Fewer of the arrangements which make construction in the US are being made.

    The US has a 35% corporate income tax and many states and cities levy their own corporate taxes.

    Combined these deterrants drive business offshore.

    The envirionmental concerns real or imagined are superimposed on top of these realities.

    Of course there are differences of opinion on how important any environmental issue is, but there are practitioners of an environmental religion who are engaged in jihad against growth, increased standards of living and employment in the USA. They often lack the intellectual honesty and ability to make a judgment as to what is a reasonable cost in every way.

  4. Originally Posted by oldandinthe way
    Of course there are differences of opinion on how important any environmental issue is, but there are practitioners of an environmental religion who are engaged in jihad against growth, increased standards of living and employment in the USA. They often lack the intellectual honesty and ability to make a judgment as to what is a reasonable cost in every way.
    Very true. But the same goes for those who value "production" over environmental concerns. It's all a matter of choice and balance.

    As for "increased standards of living in the USA," I'm guessing by that you mean more equitable standards of living for all, not necessarily increasing growth for the sake of growth. The US per capita consumption of goods and raw materials, compared to other countries -- even countries with pretty decent "standards of living" -- is rather impressive. You can see just how impressive at: http://atlas.aaas.org/index.php?part=2

    And as for how to judge "reasonable cost" ... I'm not of the view that the majority of any group of people really has a good understanding of systems theory and what the costs are for a lot of things in this world.

  5. Originally Posted by träskmannen
    Originally Posted by Des
    BTW, Old and in the Way, about a year ago Weird NJ had a great photo essay on the current state of the US Steel mills in Bethlehem, I may still have it around.
    This is most likely not the photo essay you were thinking about but it is nevertheless worth the effort to check it out.

    http://oboylephoto.com/steel/index.htm
    The name is familiar and the photos look right. The Weird NJ piece was also accompanied by a good essay from the photographer, but had fewer photos.

    I'll see if I can dig it up, I think it's in a magazine rack here somewhere...

    --dES
    "You can observe a lot by watching." - Yogi Bera
    http://www.areturningadultstudent.com

  6. Member edDV's Avatar
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    I live in a county that has few jobs for high school let alone college grads other than servicing retirees. Yet they still obstruct any light industrial projects (e.g. electronics or mining) on traffic concerns. Schools are closing as elderly boomers move in.

  7. Member oldandinthe way's Avatar
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    Originally Posted by edDV
    I live in a county that has few jobs for high school let alone college grads other than servicing retirees. Yet they still obstruct any light industrial projects (e.g. electronics or mining) on traffic concerns. Schools are closing as elderly boomers move in.
    It sounds all too familiar.

    The enviornmentally simpleminded are conquering the nation. Its too big, its too dirty, its unnatural, its wasteful.

    With a little luck they'll reintroduce the wolf to your county, make the coyote a protected species, and use all of the corn which feeds cattle to make auto fuel (solving both the Cow emissions problem and reducing our dependance on foreign oil).

    Your standard of living will fall to the levels our European role models experience, and then plummet to sub-saharan african levels. But don't worry, the earth will be clean and pure.

    And those who bring us these blessings will legalize medical marijuana and diagnose your problem as depression so that you will be able to get high and enjoy the new state of the earth.

    As for schools closing, it might not be a loss if your schools fail to educate like the schools in many areas. All too many schools award a diploma without conveying how to reason. The brightest young poeple I meet are home schooled. As a product of big city public schools in an earlier time it brings despair to see how little information is conveyed in today's schools, and how absent critical thought is.

  8. Member edDV's Avatar
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    Originally Posted by oldandinthe way
    Originally Posted by edDV
    I live in a county that has few jobs for high school let alone college grads other than servicing retirees. Yet they still obstruct any light industrial projects (e.g. electronics or mining) on traffic concerns. Schools are closing as elderly boomers move in.
    It sounds all too familiar.

    The enviornmentally simpleminded are conquering the nation. Its too big, its too dirty, its unnatural, its wasteful.

    With a little luck they'll reintroduce the wolf to your county, make the coyote a protected species, and use all of the corn which feeds cattle to make auto fuel (solving both the Cow emissions problem and reducing our dependance on foreign oil).

    Your standard of living will fall to the levels our European role models experience, and then plummet to sub-saharan african levels. But don't worry, the earth will be clean and pure.

    And those who bring us these blessings will legalize medical marijuana and diagnose your problem as depression so that you will be able to get high and enjoy the new state of the earth.

    As for schools closing, it might not be a loss if your schools fail to educate like the schools in many areas. All too many schools award a diploma without conveying how to reason. The brightest young poeple I meet are home schooled. As a product of big city public schools in an earlier time it brings despair to see how little information is conveyed in today's schools, and how absent critical thought is.
    Sad thing is the local schools are among the top performers in California but young parents can't afford to move here or find jobs. Property tax revenue exports the county to Sacramento with little import back.

  9. Originally Posted by oldandinthe way

    Your standard of living will fall to the levels our European role models experience, and then plummet to sub-saharan african levels. But don't worry, the earth will be clean and pure.
    Yeah, cry me a river, brother. Feel sorry for all of us in the good ol' USA! :P

    EDIT: I think we've turned this thread political, and frankly I'd recommend that a moderator lock it.

  10. Why do we need a new USA maker of DVDs?
    We need good DVDs media, no matter from which country. We want TY, not because it is from Japan, because it is good.
    Recently food recall, lead in lipsticks (made in USA),...; USA or not, it needs to be good.




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