We need a new USA maker of DVDs, why not?

[overloaded_ide]

For you disk jockies out there that know your stuff.

Why is it we do not have any decent made in USA DVD's?
Is it EPA?
OSHA?
High taxes?
Over paid workers?
Other government crap?

What would it take to set up and run a DVD R manufacturing facility here?

I mean I bet on this forum alone there are enough disk buyers to keep us in business as for disks sold if they actually work and production was kept in house and not farmed out to lowest bidder on a whim.
Just reading a thread about Verbatim in India, can't even trust Verbatim disks now?
What's next, Russain TY???

[Almost Human]

NAFTA!

Ross Perot was right when he said "Hear that giant sucking sound? That's all the jobs being sucked out of the country."

[hech54]

Why is it we do not have any decent made in USA DVD's?

Same reason there are no American made TV's, radios (including car radios), etc etc etc etc....and the same reason "Made In America" (cars) also means cars made in Canada(look it up...it's true). And how about the wiring for all of the "American" cars....there are also very few wire manufacturers left in America....certainly not enough to supply the Big 3 auto makers.
DVDR's and CDR's would not be cheaper or better if they were made in America....it's called a global market. The only problem is....what the heck are "they" buying from "us"?

[JohnnyMalaria]

Define "USA maker".

There is a USA manufacturer of blank DVDs - Vinpower. Corporate offices are in California. However, the production facilities are in Taiwan.

According to GlobalSource.com, there are 124 blank DVD manufacturers listed (others exist that aren't):

China - 70
Taiwan - 47
Hong Kong SAR - 6
United States - 1

The simple reason: Cost Of Goods (COGs). As with just about everything, the consumer (you and me) expects the lowest price. Having a facility in the US that manufacturers blank DVDs is untenable. One company supplying the US cannot compete with other companies supplying the global market, especially with the lower COGs.

The contribution that the US-based members of this forum provide to the blank DVD market is negligible.

Bottom line - the "developed" economies of North America and Western Europe simply can't compete with the Far East. That's just the way it is. A couple of centuries ago, the textile mills in Britain were put out of business because the US could manufacture the same goods (from the very same raw cotton) for less. And so it goes...

Having a domestic manufacturer of blank DVDs would not guarantee better quality, either. The mature microelectronics and optoelectronics industries in the Far East produce very high quality products.

The Far East is the logical location for these industries. More than half the world's population live in Asia - ten times that of North America.

[jagabo]

Chinese factory worker's wages: 25 cents per day, overtime not paid
USA factory worker's wages: $60 per day, paid overtime

USA: many regulations on worker safety, toxic waste, etc.
China: few regulations on worker safety, toxic waste, etc.

[Des]

[quote="hech54"]

DVDR's and CDR's would not be cheaper or better if they were made in America....it's called a global market. The only problem is....what the heck are "they" buying from "us"?

I think a better question is: "What the hell are we offering them to buy from us?"

I think farm equipment is still the big export of the USA, also card board so things can be boxed up and shipped back to us. I could be wrong, been a while since I've looked it up and I'm lazy right now; so I'm sure someone will correct me.
Maybe we can also add "Intellectual Property" to the list.

--dES

[AlanHK]

Chinese factory worker's wages: 25 cents per day, overtime not paid

Chinese wages are low, but not that low. The minimum wages in Guangdong (where most of the world's computer components are made) is 780 RMB/month = about US$100. So daily wage is about US$3.

[jagabo]

Chinese factory worker's wages: 25 cents per day, overtime not paid

Chinese wages are low, but not that low. The minimum wages in Guangdong (where most of the world's computer components are made) is 780 RMB/month = about US$100. So daily wage is about US$3.

And then most of that is taken back for "room and board" in factory housing.

Even if we accept that they make $3 for an 8 hour day, that's 1/20 of what an American would make.

[jagabo]

Maybe we can also add "Intellectual Property" to the list.

China doesn't pay for intellectual property. Just ask Microsoft, Hollywood, Qualcomm, etc.

[classfour]

NAFTA certainly has made a wreck of things. Once the Chinese discover labor unions, it'll turn around LOL.

[Des]

Maybe we can also add "Intellectual Property" to the list.

China doesn't pay for intellectual property. Just ask Microsoft, Hollywood, Qualcomm, etc.

And Apple, just look at the knock off iPods, both 'good knock offs' and 'similar knock offs

--dES

[JohnnyMalaria]

NAFTA doesn't come into it. The switch from the more developed nations to the less developed would happen anyway. Always has.

NAFTA is a Johnny-Come-Lately - a knock-off of ETFA (as was), the EEC (as was) and the EU.

The problem with NAFTA is that it only comprises three countries and the most dominant one wants the benefits without the costs. To be truly effective, citizens from all member states should be able to freely work in any of the member states and all goods should be available in all member states with the same duties/taxes.

Unlike NAFTA, the creation of the EEC was for one simple reason: to prevent any one European country rising to dominant military power (specifically France and Germany). With NAFTA, that's already happened.

[lacywest]

good info

[oldandinthe way]

Making optical media is not a labor intensive process, the cost of labor is irrelevant.

NAFTA and other free trade agreements don't affect non-labor intensive manufacturers

The US tax code does affect manufacturing in the US. Companies can decrease their corporate income tax liability by manufacturing offshore, and creating subsidiaries to do it. Show the profit in singapore or taiwan or anywhere else but the USA. The US has one of the highest corporate income tax rates in the world.

Its not just DVD media which are not labor intensive and not built here, its also PC boards and a multitude of equipment.

Assembling PCs and TV sets does use labor and indeed China and Mexico do work which was previously done in the US.

By the way. China, like other Communist Countries has labor unions. They also have a large population who welcome an increase in their standard of living.

[davidsama]

That would be a good thing to have.

[Constant Gardener]

Don't blame NAFTA. The real villain was Malcom Maclean, who made container shipping a success. If it wasn't for Malcom (sic) the cost of loading and unloading ships would be way higher, and it simply wouldn't be worthwhile making so many items far away from their market.

[jagabo]

Don't blame NAFTA. The real villain was Malcom Maclean

Yeah, kill the messenger. And don't forget the guys that invented the internal combustion engine, the steam engine, wagons, sails, wheels, bags. All evil.

[oldandinthe way]

Container shipping benefits the US exports as well. As well as those items manufactured here, and our agricultural exports, the returning containers to china carry our used paper, metals and building materials. There would be no market for many recyclables without the Chinese purchasing these items and the need to carry something to China to efficiently operate their container ships.

[AlanHK]

Even if we accept that they make $3 for an 8 hour day, that's 1/20 of what an American would make.

You were out by more than a factor of ten.
If you just want to vent, feel free, but don't make up figures to support your prejudices.

China doesn't pay for intellectual property. Just ask Microsoft, Hollywood, Qualcomm, etc.

http://smart90.com/tvimagazine/2006/1706/112HuJintaoDinnerAtGates.htm

Attending the Bill and Melinda Gates dinner party with China's President Hu Jintao in Redmond, Washington. included Henry Kissinger, and the CEOs of Lenovo Group Ltd., China's largest PC maker and China Expo2006.
The CEOs were celebrating the purchase of over $1.2 billion of Microsoft Corp.'s Windows software over the next year,

It's hard to take you seriously if you keep making easily disproved blanket statements.

[AlanHK]

By the way. China, like other Communist Countries has labor unions.

Labour unions in China are subservient to the Party, their function is to control the workforce. They never organise workers against management or go on strike for better conditions or wages.

[thecoalman]

What would it take to set up and run a DVD R manufacturing facility here?

To be competitive the first thing you would have to do is throw all the EPA regulations out the window...

http://veimages.gsfc.nasa.gov/1045/S1999336044454.png (5mb image)

The big mass of grey obscuring the earth in the center of the picture is pollution over Eastern China, it's so thick there's shadows from clouds on it. To orient yourself it's looking southeasterly instead of north. The peninsula to the upper left, about half the size of bank of smog I might add, is North and South Korea. That's just the air.... At the rate they are going they are all going to be dead from drinking the water and eating the food.

China may very well be an enormous economic powerhouse but they killing themselves. Imagine if the US had the technology available now during the industrial revolution when there were no environmental laws... that's what is happening in China. Their economic boom is coming at enormous costs to both the population and the land they live on. These costs are only going to escalate and will take hundreds of years to correct.

Not sure about you but as far as I'm concerned if that's the price of making DVD's, TV's and all the rest at a competitive price they can go right on making them.

[jagabo]

China doesn't pay for intellectual property. Just ask Microsoft, Hollywood, Qualcomm, etc.

http://smart90.com/tvimagazine/2006/1706/112HuJintaoDinnerAtGates.htm

Attending the Bill and Melinda Gates dinner party with China's President Hu Jintao in Redmond, Washington. included Henry Kissinger, and the CEOs of Lenovo Group Ltd., China's largest PC maker and China Expo2006.
The CEOs were celebrating the purchase of over $1.2 billion of Microsoft Corp.'s Windows software over the next year,

It's hard to take you seriously if you keep making easily disproved blanket statements.

Most of those copies of Vista will be paid for by the westerners who purchase the machines.

2 weeks (Jan 19 to Feb 2) from launch Microsoft managed to sell a mere 244 copies of Windows Vista.... quoted by Windows Vista chief distributor in Bejing.

http://www.newlaunches.com/archives/only_244_copies_of_genuine_windows_vista_sold_in_china.php

I wonder how may copies of the pirated version sold during that same period?

The (pirated) Chinese version of Vista, priced by vendors from $1.30 to $4, depending on haggling...

Last year, an estimated 86 percent of software installed on computers in China was pirated, according to the Business Software Alliance. Though staggering, that number is better than the 92 percent tallied in 2003, said Victor Zhang, director of the alliance's Beijing office.

http://www.sfgate.com/cgi-bin/article.cgi?file=/c/a/2007/01/31/MNGQCNS3NG1.DTL

[AlanHK]

The (pirated) Chinese version of Vista, priced by vendors from $1.30 to $4, depending on haggling...

And in the USA, you can download it by Bittorrent, for free.

Same as before, you exaggerate your claims. (But at least you have some citations this time, so I give you some credit for that.) Obviously much of the software in China is pirated. More than in the West. But as in the West, the way Microsoft makes billions is not from retail, but OEM installs and corporate sales. Chinese PC companies are now installing legal versions of Windows, both for domestic and export sales, and Chinese government offices and larger companies are buying licensed versions.

Microsoft is playing a long game in the Third World. They wag their fingers against piracy, but take little action till the economies have reached the point where they can afford to buy, and years of use have made the users accustomed to and dependent on their software. Then the screws are tightened, and the money starts flowing. That's the stage China has reached now.

Hollywood is another story, they'll have to hope for income from broadcast, if any.

[oldandinthe way]

By the way. China, like other Communist Countries has labor unions.

Labour unions in China are subservient to the Party, their function is to control the workforce. They never organise workers against management or go on strike for better conditions or wages.

Labor unions in the United States own one of the major political parties. In spite of this few American workers in the private sector belong to unions. Government employees however are almost all unionized. Not very different from China,

Rarely are American strikes about issues that actually benefit the workers, when the lost wages from striking are combined with the settlement, workers usually lose.

[AlanHK]

Government employees however are almost all unionized. Not very different from China

Really, it is extremely different, despite outward similarities. In the US, the Democtats court the unionists for support. In China, the Communist Party tells the unionists exactly what to do.

There is a very small and fragmented independent workers movement, agitating for workers' rights, but they are repressed and imprisoned on the slightest excuse. Some of them went on the run and ended up here in Hong Kong.

[Constant Gardener]

At the risk of getting back on topic, suppose we start making DVDs here. The labor costs are much higher. We can't simply dump our waste products into the nearest watershed. There's no savings in shipping costs. Maybe, if we make a top-quality product and appeal to patriotism (freedom disks?) we'd sell enough to make a meagre profit. But most people now simply buy whatever is cheapest at Wal-Mart. So, how do we market our locally-made, more expensive disks? Any ideas? Government subsidies, perhaps? (They work for farmers, effectively shutting out agricultural products from third-world countries.)

[AlanHK]

So, how do we market our locally-made, more expensive disks? Any ideas?

How long would it take to build a DVD factory? A year or two at least. By then Blueray or some other higher density format will be the in thing, demand for DVDs will be slacking. And a few years after that, some solid state storage will start to take over. DVDs will still be around for a decade or so, but so cheap there will be hardly any profit in the manufacture.

If you want to build something, think two generations ahead, and you'll have a product you can export, not one you have to protect with import tariffs.

[JohnnyMalaria]

To be competitive the first thing you would have to do is throw all the EPA regulations out the window...

http://veimages.gsfc.nasa.gov/1045/S1999336044454.png (5mb image)

The big mass of grey obscuring the earth in the center of the picture is pollution over Eastern China, it's so thick there's shadows from clouds on it. To orient yourself it's looking southeasterly instead of north. The peninsula to the upper left, about half the size of bank of smog I might add, is North and South Korea. That's just the air.... At the rate they are going they are all going to be dead from drinking the water and eating the food.

Much of the cloud is yellow dust:

http://www.noaanews.noaa.gov/stories/images/duststorm032502.jpg

A major cause of the yellow dust storm is excessive land erosion and a large contributor is overgrazing by livestock - especially goats. The West's demand for cheaper cashmere has dramatically increased the goat population in Mongolia. This article contains a lot of interesting - and worrying - information:

http://disarmament.un.org/rcpd/pdf/Batjargalkanazawa.pdf

Dust from these clouds frequently reaches the US western seaboard, contributing significantly to smog levels in Los Angeles.

So, when you think you are getting a bargain with those $5 cashmere gloves from Wal-Mart.....

(I bet "My Pet Goat" doesn't have anything about this...)

[thecoalman]

Much of the cloud is yellow dust:

The full page for that image can be found here: http://visibleearth.nasa.gov/view_rec.php?id=1045

It's labeled as haze, there's lots of images if you want to look. The ones similar to that one are labeled as pollution, ,smog, and dust.

http://visibleearth.nasa.gov/view_set.php?categoryId=2109&p=2

Here's another good one: http://veimages.gsfc.nasa.gov/2477/S2002011041003.L1A_HJMS_lrg.jpg

A thick shroud of haze lingers over China, turning the sky an opaque grey over most of the eastern provinces and almost completely blotting out details of the land surface in this true-color scene. Beijing, China's capital city, is situated roughly 150 km (93 miles) west of Bo Hai Bay, under what appears to the densest portion of the aerosol pollution. These data were collected on January 11, 2002, by the Sea-viewing Wide Field-of-view Sensor (SeaWiFS), flying aboard OrbView 2.

The heavy aerosol concentrations can be seen blowing eastward across the Bo Hai Bay and Yellow Sea. It appears that some of the pollution has reached as far east as North and South Korea and the islands of Japan.

[trhouse]

Making optical media is not a labor intensive process, the cost of labor is irrelevant

This comment hit a nerve. About 15 years ago I worked for a company that had a nearly completely automated production line. The only US workers were technicians servicing the robots and security guards. Both were contracted out and not company employees.

In spite of this, the plant was moved to Malaysia. When I inquired why, the answer came back from the accounting department.

1) the rent for the building in Malaysia was about 20% of the cost in the US.
2) the company had to pay a state "inventory" tax on product made and warehoused here
3) half the sales of the product was overseas making Malaysia a less costly distribution point

The only US employees who lost their jobs were the security guards. The technicians that serviced the robots were sent out there on a rotating basis by the company that employed them.

If you want to build something, think two generations ahead, and you'll have a product you can export

I met the founder of a cd/dvd manufacturing company once based in Taiwan. Given all the advantages ascribed to manufacturing overseas, it was not successful. He made money the first year, then it was all downhill as dvd prices plummeted. The company lost to competition from cross town rival, Ritek and was dissolved. The founder lost $250.000 personally.

What the hell are we offering them to buy from us?

Most of the test equipment and robots for making these products and raw materials. The Taiwanese cd/dvd manufacturer told me all his cd/dvd making machines were from Germany. There was little labor involved. You pour bags of granualized plastic in one end and cd/dvd's come out the other.

China may very well be an enormous economic powerhouse but they killing themselves

There was a good PBS program that addressed this very subject. The conclusion was that all industrialized countries have followed similar routes. First no controls, lots of pollution, but success and affluence cause people in those countries to start demanding a better life which includes an improved environment.