jitter on DVDs burned with computer

[lipwak]

Hi,

I have used EyeTV 250 Plus to capture some music videos from my DirecTV DVR. I first recorded some on an external USB drive and too many problems with that so I am now using an external Firewire drive or the internal drive on my Powerbook. I then bring them into iMovie HD and iDVD (both version 5). They play fine on the computer. I get jitter when there is lots of motion of close-ups when I play these DVDs on my Panasonic DMR-EZ17K DVD recorder, watching on a Toshiba 20AF41 (with the Panasonic being fed in via the composite inputs.)

I have looked for settings I can change all along the process: external vs internal hard drive to record on, various settings in EyeTV, various encodings settings in iMovie (bring in as .dv, iMovie file, mpeg4, save as DV or MPEG project file, others) Best Quality vs Best Performance in iDVD, various settings on the Panasonic regarding playback as well as various settings (and I will try changing inputs) on the Toshiba TV.

I haven't solved the jitter problem. Other DVDs don't show this problem, only ones I have created using EyeTV. (I also have used a previous (lower resolution) capture program, USBVIsion using an XLR8 USB capture device and those recordings do not show jitter when played on the Panasonic.) Jitter does not occur when viewed on the computer or when that video is fed to the TV via the video port on the Powerbook at any stage of the process. I only see it when playing DVDs I created on the Panasonic. (I have looked at Panasonic's website and talked to their customer support and have not found any answers other than replacing the unit.)

Can anyone help out? I will happily supply any more needed info.

Thanks.

John L

[redwudz]

What DVD media are you using? That can have a major bearing on how well they play back. A computer can play about anything. Software players like VLC can play corrupted discs with missing frames and you may not notice. But set top players are more sensitive to media problems.

Or the problem may be with your software conversions or the encoder settings. Both too high a bitrate or too low a bitrate may also cause problems.

And welcome to our forums.

[lipwak]

Thanks!

I am using HP DVD-R 16X. In the past I have used other brands but I haven't tried those with either EyeTV or the Panasonic yet.

I am not sure what bit rate they were done at. Here is some sample info from an EyeTV recording that might be the same as one I am having problems with.

Encoding: High quality/90 minute
2.78 GB /hr DVD compliant MPEG-2
Video: 720x480, 29.97 fps, 6.0 Mbps VBR (8.0 Mbps max) (<--Is that the bit rate?), IBP frames
Audio: 48.0 khz, 384 kbps

I can try to figure out other settings from iMovie or iDVD if needed.

Thanks again.

John

[redwudz]

6.0 Mbps VBR (8.0 Mbps max)

Yes, that's the bitrate. Probably 6Mbps average, 8Mbps maximum. DVD specifications are usually about 9500Kbps maximum. (9.5Mbps), so that all seems OK. I'm not that familar with Mac programs, so not much help there. Or the problems might be with your source video or the capture programs.

I would try some different media, in case there might be a problem there. It's the easiest and often cheapest change to try.

[lipwak]

Thanks. I also have burned to Memorex DVD+RW 4X and it happens on them too. They look fine on the computer, jitter during close-ups or motion on the Panasonic.

[tomlee59]

If I didn't have all of the information you provided, I would say that it sounds almost as if there's a pulldown-related problem. But that wouldn't make sense, unless you chose target framerates that differ from the source's. Is this even remotely possible with your setup? If not, ignore this post.

[lipwak]

Could be. I'm not sure what "target framerates" are. I could probably figure out what the frame rate was for the source and see if that varied along the way (exporting to EyeTV's iMovie file, within iMovie, if it can be adjusted in iDVD... Or do I have to go back to the DirecTV DVR?)

Should I?

I have seen a little info on pulldown and thought that could explain it too but I am not very familiar with it. I still wouldn't know how to fix it if that was the case.

Cheers,

John

[tomlee59]

By "target framerate," I mean any framerate not related to the source.

So, you are starting with some video; that's the source, and it has a certain framerate (say, 24fps). Then you record that on another device (the target). That will have a framerate, too. If you select the latter (target) framerate different from the source framerate, something has to perform a framerate conversion. This can be done several ways, some of which produce worse "judder" than others (the most common way to go from film to NTSC TV is not to convert the file at all, and simply flag the need for a conversion-on-the-fly during playback; this is handled by setting a "pulldown flag" to signal the player of the need to do this). Examine the framerate settings at each conversion step to see if anything's changed along the way.

Just to be clear, if the artifact you're describing is present during slow pans, for example, then what I'm talking about may apply. If instead you're seeing "funny things" during high-motion content scenes, then you may actually be witnessing interlacing artifacts. Do a search for "interlace artifacts" or some such thing to find examples to compare with what you're seeing.

[lipwak]

Source: All of my EyeTV recordings are of content from a DirecTV DVR. I would assume that would be broadcast standard. There's no way I can tell for each program, although one good example of some jitter of motion is a Late Night w/ David Letterman excerpt so at least there is no film there...

Target: EyeTV records at 29.97.

Looking for examples, what I see is more like the deinterlaced example after the line "Here is what this type of deinterlacing looks like:" on this page (http://neuron2.net/LVG/interlacing.html) than the interlaced artifact. I never see lines. I see an unnatural movement when things should be smooth, a jerkiness, almost flashing. Perhaps it would be described as ghosting but it is more aptly described as showing motion poorly. Stuttering perhaps.

I have also noticed that when the switcher cuts between cameras in the Letterman example, I do see a flash at the cut.

Thanks for this help.

[Huxley]

Look up Panasonic DVD recorders on https://www.videohelp.com/dvdplayers and read the DVD Media comments.
Some media will be great, others will play but jump, some will not work.
Just try a few good brands of DVD +/- media until you find one that works.

[jagabo]

This sounds like a field order problem.

[oldandinthe way]

Your HP media are made by CMC. The media gurus on this site will tell you they are crap - use TY or Verbatim. Similarly the Memorex media.

I have used both on my own equipment with no problem.

Nonetheless trying TY or Verbatim is the easiest potential solution. It may not really fix the problem but it may yield superior results to what you currently obtain.

It's like the auto mechanic when asked if he fixed the problem said, "no, but I got it running".

Failing that you will need to invest much more time and effort.

[lipwak]

Huxley, my Panasonic model (DMR-EZ17K) wasn't listed but thanks.

jagabo: What's field order?

oldandinthe way: Oy, invest more time and effort? I'm already making this practically a full time job...

One more thing about the media being the problem. DVDs recorded by the DVD recorder are fine, no jitter. That doesn't really prove anything but I thought I'd mention it.

Cheers,

John

[oldandinthe way]

I'm not a believer in crap media. I'm a believer in hardware which is media intolerant. That is some DVDburners do not like some media. And some players do not like some media. The DVD spec only requires compatibility with a single "standard" media (manufacturer not publicly identified).

My burners burn any media without obvious physical flaws, and my players play these disks reliably.

In spite of this I must admit that switching to TY or Verbatim does eliminate many people's problems. As does reducing their burn speeds to half of the rated speed.

I'd have long ago tossed such picky equipment out the window, but others are more tolerant than I.

You have already exceeded my tolerance level.

[jagabo]

What's field order?

Each frame of interlaced video contains half of two separate pictures. One in all the even numbered scanlines, one in all the odd numbered scanlines. These half pictures are called fields. Some programs call them top/bottom fields. Others use the terms even/odd, 1/2, A/B, etc.

In fully interlaced video, typical of live sporting events and camcorder footage, each of these fields was taken at a different time, 1/60 of a second apart. These must be played back in the correct order or you will consistently see very fast-jerky video whenever there is any motion. This will jerk two steps forward then one step back, 30 times a second. With telecined movies you will see less frequent jerks, about 6 a second.

The capture device determines the field order. DV camcorders capture bottom field first. Most MPEG caputre devices I've seen capture top field first. The field order must be handled correctly when authoring a DVD. Determine the field order of your source and make sure any conversion and authoring programs get the field order right. Most will let you overide the automatic field order detection.

Bad media causes much more inconsistent jerkiness.

[tomlee59]

I agree with jagabo on both counts -- your problem does not sound anything like a media-quality related issue. Not even close. Bad media causes random problems of various types, not solely motion-related ones.

The field order theory is well worth investigating. Give that experiment a try and let us know how you make out. If you still have problems (or if it even gets worse), someone here might have additional suggestions for things to try.

[Herve]

jagabo: What's field order?

more explanations here (with pictures to understand ) http://movieconverter.online.fr/intl/interlaced_field.php
and take a look -after- to the chapter "interlaced broadcast"

bye

[lipwak]

Got this from Elgato recently Does this tell us anything?

"One thing I can say is that the MPEG video that EyeTV captures is not frame based. MPEG has some frames, and some other information to generate the inbetween information. Those Groups of Pictures (GOPs) usually have a few still frames, but they are not all still frames. So, EyeTV'e editor manipulates things at the GOP level - each segment representing a few frames. That's while frame by frame is not available - EyeTV's editor is not designed for that. EyeTV would have to re-render the original MPEG video to make true still frames, and that would take some time - it's not something that EyeTV can do right now."

Much of it deals with my wondering how to better edit using their built in editor but I wonder if this tells any of you anything about how they deal with video and how it might relate to the jitter problem. A slightly earlier note from them said that they think it is a iDVD problem and that they are hoping that Apple will fix it.

Thanks.

John L

[jagabo]

The GOP issues limits where you can cut but has nothing to do with the jittery video.

Each frame of interlaced video contains two separate half pictures, called fields. One field is all the even numbered scanlines, the other is all the odd numbered scanlines. In a fully interlaced video (like from a camcorder or a live sporting event) each field comes from a different point in time, 1/60 second apart.

When you watch video on a standard definition TV you never see the entire frame, you see one field at a time. So when the DVD player plays the video it has to know which of the two fields to display first. This is the "field order".

With still frames it doesn't really matter which field you see first. But when there's movement the wrong field order will give very fast-jerky motions.

I don't know the software you're using but most encoding and authoring software lets you specify the field order of a source. Look for a way to examine and change the source properties. Terminology for field order varies from program to program. Some use the terms Top/Bottom, others Even/Odd, A/B 1/2, etc. Try changing to the opposite field order. DV is almost always Bottom Field First. MPEG is usually Top Field First (but can be either).

[lipwak]

I use EyeTV and have seen no info on how to do that. I have asked them but they haven't responded to that yet.

Thanks.

[lipwak]

Newsbreak.

I did a test using Toast's custom encoding settings. Made one DVD using top field first, one with the bottom. The top first DVD had no jitter, the bottom first one did.

Case closed?

Does the top first encoding have to be tended to in the burning stage or would choosing it with the capture or in the iMovie editing process work? (Does this mean I have to use Toast to burn without jitter?)

Many thanks.

John

[Frobozz]

Apple has some articles on this issue such as this one: Field Dominance Discussion.

Usually the top field first or bottom field first is consistent with the type of video format. Toast's automatic setting assumes the field dominance is the norm for that format. When it isn't, you can force the other, as you've found. MPEG Streamclip's Show Stream Info includes a line that describes the field order.

[lipwak]

Hi,

Thanks! I'm waiting for the Apple page to become available (it's temporarily down) but I got MPEG Streamclip to show me info on one of the files I'd been using. It confirms top field first*. It will be handy in the future too.

Now, I'd love to use EyeTV, iMovie and iDVD. None of those, as far as I know allow me to set which field should be used. If there is a way to force it, I'd love to know.

Or, does this only apply to the DVD burning process? Can it be set before that?

Many thanks.

John L

(PS On the EyeTV original recordings, there are .eyetvi, .eyetvp, .eyer, mpeg and a tiff file in the (package?). *I looked at the mpeg, which appeared as an audio file only but the Show Stream Info window showed the field order info. What are the i, p and r files?)

[Frobozz]

There's no setting in EyeTV for field dominance. The field is set in the NTSC transmission that the EyeTV receives because the source already is interlaced (unless it is a 720p source).

[lipwak]

So, is the only place where I would be able to deal with the field order settings be the software that burns the DVD? I wouldn't deal with it in my movie editing software which is in my case is iMovie?

Thanks.

John L

[lordsmurf]

iMovie and iDVD are "idiotware" and make all the choices for you, and don't let you change anything. It assumes you're stupid. Most users are. But those who actually know something about video tend to just get hacked off at such software. General users often give up, live with it (and think video is supposed to look that bad), or learn more and switch to something new.

I've not used these in a while, but I don't think those settings are available. If the software is wrong, you're stuck. This is one reason I have a problem with the stripped-down versions of software like Premiere Elements and Procoder Express.

[Herve]

most of dvb (digital video bradcasting) streams are top-field-first (don't ask why), most of dvd are bottom-field-first (don't ask why too). IMovie only handle dv with bottom-field-first (why? ...ask apple). DV with top-field-first is compliant but not handle on mac, even if some professionnal hardware captures DV to T-F-F
the order of fields is coded inside the m2v "frames", use a soft that wants to read them (and better, to give you the ability to change it).
In resume, don't use iDVD

PS: with dvb streams others problems are (sometimes):
- ratio can change within the stream (4/3 -> 16/9 -> ...)
- field order too (top -> bottom -> none -> ...)
no way to detect automatically and adapt the good output, you must split manually the stream in little parts at every change
bye

PSS: you can modify some info (change of ratio) directly inside your final dvd with the new beta of myDVDEdit (november 10th, v 0.9.10)

[lipwak]

Thanks very much. That is good info!

I do have a few follow-up questions.
"most of dvb (digital video bradcasting) streams are top-field-first (don't ask why),"
So, does that mean that both satellite and cable are both top field first? I have been taping things for about 5 years from DirecTV and 13 years from when I had cable. (I am glad it doesn't depend on each show!)

Does putting things on VHS affect field order? My VHS recordings will be both from DirecTV and cable. I will most likely be able to tell them apart if that matters. Future recordings with EyeTV will be most likely from my DirecTV DVR.

"most of dvd are bottom-field-first (don't ask why too). IMovie only handle dv with bottom-field-first (why? ...ask apple)."
I'm guessing because they (including iDVD) were designed for dv footage from camcorders which are bottom field first, aren't they? My using them for captured footage is "a workaround" all admit. EyeTV though should have it all figured out if they offer Toast with EyeTV 250 +, which is what I have. (And I have had problems with Toast DVDs creating jitter too.)

"DV with top-field-first is compliant but not handle on mac"
What does 'compliant but not handled' mean?

"In resume, don't use iDVD biggrin.gif"
And, since you say iMovie doesn't handle top first either, then I shouldn't use iMovie either, right?

(I never see jitter with iMovie or previewing in iDVD, but that is because I am looking at them on a computer monitor, LCD screen in my case, rather than a TV, right? Would it be a fair test to show them on my TV? It can be easily done.)

"PS: with dvb streams others problems are (sometimes):"
Boy, that makes recording TV to DVD pretty challenging. I was kinda hoping software designers had figured all that out in the products I am using. Toast theoretically detects the change in the automatic encoding setting, but it hasn't worked well enough for me. Toast is also the only one to allow me to change field order.

"no way to detect automatically and adapt the good output, you must split manually the stream in little parts at every change sad.gif"
"Every change" being every edit in a movie, every camera angle in broadcast tv? I do notice flash frames that occur when the camera is switched with "live" broadcast TV (such as Late Night With David Letterman) on DVDs that have jitter.

Thanks again for the very helpful info! (I wrote this in mail program so I had to re-insert the quotation marks. Hope I got them all.)

Cheers,

John L

[lordsmurf]

Herve's info is not accurate.

DV = bottom field interlace, period.

Most commercial DVDs are progressive with 3:2, not interlaced

Most DVB is a mix of progressive, and top and bottom interlace. Those streams are all over the map, and working with them is like performing voodoo. If you capture it, the capture device will align everything to its preference.

Interlacing on captures is determined by the device that captures. DV conversion devices will make it bottom field first. Other capture cards and DVD recorders almost always capture it top field first.

Please don't guess with video. DVD was not made for DV, no, not at all. DVD uses MPEG-2, which supports progressive and both field dominances of interlacing in video.

"DVD with top field" is non-sense, as DV is bottom field first, period.

Final Cut has a limited version (not full 3-digit-priced version) that can also capture, doesn't it? Try that.

The big problem here is that "jitter" means video that vibrates up and down . But it's not a constant vibration, it's erratic, more of a jitter. I have a feeling that "jitter" is not the word you want to use. Would "stutter" be more accurate? That's where the video jerks left and right when panning or moving. And you can often see interlace lines on screens too.

It simply sounds like your field dominance is off. If you're working with actual DVB stream files, there's a chance you'll NEVER get it to cooperate, because those streams can be a mix of sources. The editors usually mess up the flags the change back and forth.

[jagabo]

Does putting things on VHS affect field order?

VHS is neither TFF or BFF. Like any interlaced analog video it's simply an alternating sequence of top and bottom fields. In the alternating sequence of chickens and eggs is it chicken first or egg first?

It's only after analog fields are captured and paired together into frames that the frames of video have a field order.