Is Canopus 50/55/100/110 REALLY god's gift to the VHS-capture universe?

[miamicanes]

I'm thinking about returning the ADStech DVDxpress DX2 to CompUSA (it seems to be limited to 4000kbit/sec, which is just plain unacceptable), biting the bullet, and going with a S-video->DV->firewire device. At the moment, the list I'm considering includes:

* Canopus ADVC50
* Canopus ADVC55
* Canopus ADVC100
* Canopus ADVC110
* DataVideo DAC-100
* DataVideo DAC-200

The thing is, it's about a hundred bucks more than I really wanted to spend (sigh. Once again, heading down the slippery slope...), so I want to make sure that I'm not going to end up hating myself next month for not just sticking with one of the cheaper alternatives

As I understand it, the ADVC50 is basically the ADVC100 with ONLY capture capability, and the ADVC55 is basically the ADVC110 with only capture capability. Is that correct, or is there still some compelling reason to buy a 100/110 instead of a 50/55, even if I have no conceivable need for the output capabilities of the 100/110?

Current models of the DataVideo 100/200 completely ignore Macrovision, and all of the Canopus models allow macrovision-detection to be disabled via the "20 second button press", right?

Insofar as VHS capture of crappy, degraded tapes is concerned... does the 55/110 offer any compelling improvements over the 50/100 that would probably lead me to regret buying a 50/100 instead of a 55/100?

With particular respect to VHS capture from old, degraded old VHS tapes... is there anything the Canopus boxen can do that the DataVideo boxen can't, or anything that the Canopus boxen are overwhelmingly better at doing?

With particular respect to VHS capture from old, degraded old VHS tapes... is there anything the DataVideo boxen can do that the Canopus boxen can't, or anything that the DataVideo boxen are overwhelmingly better at doing?

It's late, and I haven't been able to research this yet: If I go with one of the Canopus or DataVideo boxen, how good (speed/quality) are the free/open-source MPEG-2 encoders with specific regard to multipass CQ VBR compared to, say, TMPGEnc circa 2 or 3 years ago? I know TMPGenc is kind of the gold standard, but the $200-250 a Canopus or DataVideo box will cost me is pretty much the absolute hard limit of what I really want to spend at this point. Am I likely to be content with the free encoders, or am I more likely to end up pounding the desk, swearing a bit, and ultimately pull out the credit card to order TMPGEnc after running into some major issue with the free encoders?

[robertazimmerman]

Well.....I have the ADVC-300 and it is in fact God's gift to analog video capture. I used to have problems with the audio going out of sync using the Pinnacle DV500, but with the Canopus box, this is never an issue. Secondly the ADVC-300 provides adjustments for contrast, brightness, etc.

It's expensive, but I wouldn't want to do any analog captures without it.

I didn't really answer your questions, but I felt like gabbing!




Roberta

[lordsmurf]

Canopus DV devices are good, but severely overrated. Some of the features lists on sites online are blatant lies or borderline misleading.

These convert your analog to DV, the end. No filters, no TBC, nothing else, not really. You can tweak a few puny settings along the lines of color correction, but its not as good as a proc amp, more like a cheap Sima device.

Your crappy degraded VHS tapes will end up as crappy degraded DV captures. Don't be misled.

Most models respect anti-copy or detect false anti-copy, especially newer releases. A real honest-to-goodness standalone TBC is required for a foolproof guaranteed solution.

The VCR is honestly more important than the capture device. Many cheap capture devices can grab uncompressed AVI, and you can convert to MPEG with software (TMPGEnc Plus 2.5 is my suggestion, it's very cheap).

[edDV]

I can't answer most of your questions since I've never had a Datavideo 100/200 to compare to my ADVC-100. I can answer come of the ADVC issues.

As I understand it, the ADVC50 is basically the ADVC100 with ONLY capture capability, and the ADVC55 is basically the ADVC110 with only capture capability. Is that correct, or is there still some compelling reason to buy a 100/110 instead of a 50/55, even if I have no conceivable need for the output capabilities of the 100/110?

The 50/55 and 100 were the past models. The 110 is newer. The 50 mounts in a tray and is internally powered from the PC. ''



The ADVC-55 is sort of a half ADVC-100 and is powered by an external supply or off the 6 pin IEEE-1394 port as is the 110. The 100 uses an external supply only.



The six dip switches on the ADVC-100 perform the following functions



Two switches are important

Switch #2 sets black level to 0 IRE or 7.5 IRE. Set to 7.5 IRE for N. America.
Switch #3 sets locked audio.

Both are important features for VHS capture. The 55 also has dip switches but I don't know if it or the Datavideo share these features.

Current models of the DataVideo 100/200 completely ignore Macrovision, and all of the Canopus models allow macrovision-detection to be disabled via the "20 second button press", right?

Don't know.

Insofar as VHS capture of crappy, degraded tapes is concerned... does the 55/110 offer any compelling improvements over the 50/100 that would probably lead me to regret buying a 50/100 instead of a 55/100?

With particular respect to VHS capture from old, degraded old VHS tapes... is there anything the Canopus boxen can do that the DataVideo boxen can't, or anything that the Canopus boxen are overwhelmingly better at doing?

With particular respect to VHS capture from old, degraded old VHS tapes... is there anything the DataVideo boxen can do that the Canopus boxen can't, or anything that the DataVideo boxen are overwhelmingly better at doing?

The 50/55 may lack the setup switch and audio lock. Same goes for the Datavideo.

The 100 has the most features including a second set of inputs (S-Video and audio) from the rear. I run the cable box to the back as the default connection. Capture sources plug into the front. The 100/110 both have a calibrated analog color bar not found on the 50/55.

The 100 needs video in order to cap audio. The 110 will cap audio with or without video. That was the only new feature on the 110.

It's late, and I haven't been able to research this yet: If I go with one of the Canopus or DataVideo boxen, how good (speed/quality) are the free/open-source MPEG-2 encoders with specific regard to multipass CQ VBR compared to, say, TMPGEnc circa 2 or 3 years ago? I know TMPGenc is kind of the gold standard, but the $200-250 a Canopus or DataVideo box will cost me is pretty much the absolute hard limit of what I really want to spend at this point. Am I likely to be content with the free encoders, or am I more likely to end up pounding the desk, swearing a bit, and ultimately pull out the credit card to order TMPGEnc after running into some major issue with the free encoders?

Nothing to add. I use Vegas.


Summary on the ADVC-100/110

The setup switch solves the black at digital 32 issue (aka whiteout) that happens with camcorder capture and with other devices. Locked audio keeps audio tight even with a 6 hour capture. The colorbar helps with VCR calibration and the output stage is very useful for monitoring a pro editor and for system calibration. I use the ADVC-100 for many purposes and consider it a very valuable investment.

One other thing. The 100/110 should retain resale value better than the 50/55.

[redwudz]

I have a ADVC-100 but there are other DV converters out there that reportedly work just as well as it for less cost. But as mentioned, you need a good quality source. I don't use a TBC, but it would undoubtedly help, especially with lower quality VHS tapes. I've got most of my VHS tapes converted, so I don't use the device as much any more.

The ADS Pyro is about $130US. http://www.firewire-1394.com/converter-analog-to-dv-video-input-export.htm

I also have a DVDxpress DX2, but there's no comparison to the ADVC. It is handy for quick TV or similar conversions to a more compact format.

EDIT:

all of the Canopus models allow macrovision-detection to be disabled

Incorrect. I have an older ADVC-100 and they discontinued Macrovision filtering before my model as it definitely doesn't have it and I didn't think any newer models do either, but I don't know for sure.

[edDV]

Back of the ADVC-100


Back of the ADVC-110, also front. The 100/110 are the same on the front.


Another issue. The newer ADS Pyro has analog component connectors (480i only).
I don't know about the other features.

[edDV]

EDIT:

all of the Canopus models allow macrovision-detection to be disabled

Incorrect. I have an older ADVC-100 and they discontinued Macrovision filtering before my model as it definitely doesn't have it and I didn't think any newer models do either, but I don't know for sure.

My ADVC-100 was purchased in 2004 and has the feature.

[redwudz]

I don't recall when I got my ADVC-100, maybe it was after that. I know holding down the button as described didn't work.

[budz]

I have a ADVC-100 and that hack of holding down the button didn't work for me too. I don't ever use my unit since I completed all my Beta, VHS & Laser Disc conversions. It's collecting dust in my cabinet.

It's expensive but it did the job for me, so it was money that was spent well.

[Wile_E]

It works on my ADVC-300. Hold down the two buttons for about 10 seconds. For the ADVC-100/110, there are firmware updates that add this feature. Go look on Canopus website.

But don't waste money on the 300. It's extra features are over-rated. The Picture Controller software is a joke and has NEVER been updated. It has some sliders on there for adjustment. But the sliders don't have any numerical indication or stepping, to set them. It's a joke.

The 3D Noise Reduction is a joke too. Only three settings, OFF/LOW/HIGH. And the high setting is too harsh and causes artifact trails on everything. The only useful thing about ADVC-300, is it's volume level adjustment, white peak adjustment, and auto-gain control.

[rhegedus]

I've had an ADVC-100 for about 5 years now but haven't used it since I bought my set-top DVD recorder about 3 years ago.

For the first 2 years I had the Canopus it was in pretty much constant usage and performed as expected with no dropped franes or sync issues. The only time it choked was when I tried to capture a PAL-60 signal.

It was money well spent.

That said, if you have a DV camcorder with pass-through it will probably perform as well as the Canopus.

[Marvingj]

I brought Canopus ADVC100 used it for several months & haven't used it in a few years.....

[miamicanes]

Hmmm... I'm still trying to figure out once and for all whether or not the ADVC55 and/or ADVC110 do or don't have a hidden mode that allows them to ignore Macrovision... and if it was something that used to exist, but was removed, how to conclusively know whether or not a specific older model has the feature (serial # range, firmware version, etc).

On the chance that new ADVC55/110 units truly can't be programmed to ignore Macrovision... is it at least good enough to never, EVER misfire on something that's genuinely NOT Macrovision-protected? I'm slightly paranoid, because the last time I got in a mood to archive my old tapes ~2 years ago, I had an ATI All-in-Wonder 8500DV that was so unbelievably trigger-happy about misfiring its Macrovision-detection on things that absolutely, positively were NOT Macrovision-protected that I ended up giving up in disgust a few days after discovering the supreme irony that a cheap Macrovision-removal box would let me copy protected tapes (in good condition) with ease, but likely wouldn't do a damn thing to stop the chip from misfiring on tapes that WEREN'T protected (just in bad shape). Grrrrrr...

Alternatively, how does the ADStech Pyro compare to the Canopus and DataVideo units? I initially nuked the Pyro from consideration because it had unenthusiastic reviews here and was almost universally-disliked by reviewers at newegg, but it does seem to have one thing going for it: apparently, it's completely indifferent to the presence or absence of Macrovision... but I saw lots of complaints about excessive dropped frames compared to Canopus and Datavideo.

[edDV]

I've never had the ADVC "misfire" as you say and I have had similar issues with All-In-Wonder.

I haven't used the "Macrovision" feature much* for dubs but it has saved my butt dubbing from some equipment that defaults to macrovision in certain connection modes even where there is no protected media.

You could try to buy a used model where the seller confirms the feature works. I've never heard anyone claim the feature works on the 50/55. The models discussed before have been the 100/110/300.


* other than to verify it works.

[TBoneit]

Going OT, Maybe? However if the ADS Pyro works well then even 480i component would seem to be a good thing to have as a input as well as composite and S-Video. Thus maybe it would be a better choice than the ones mentioned by the OP? OTOH if it has A/V Sync issues?

edDV, since you mentioned it. "Another issue. The newer ADS Pyro has analog component connectors (480i only). I don't know about the other features. "

Any experience with this device? I am assuming that since it also component inputs I would get better quality captures than using S-Video?
For Example if I'm making a standard DVD feeding in a 480i component should give me the best of these three, composite, S-Video or component.

[edDV]

Going OT, Maybe? However if the ADS Pyro works well then even 480i component would seem to be a good thing to have as a input as well as composite and S-Video. Thus maybe it would be a better choice than the ones mentioned by the OP? OTOH if it has A/V Sync issues?

edDV, since you mentioned it. "Another issue. The newer ADS Pyro has analog component connectors (480i only). I don't know about the other features. "

Any experience with this device? I am assuming that since it also component inputs I would get better quality captures than using S-Video?
For Example if I'm making a standard DVD feeding in a 480i component should give me the best of these three, composite, S-Video or component.

I haven't used it. As others have said, user feedback is negative but this may due to the John Q Public consumer that doesn't understand it. Canopus is a pro video line that isn't sold through normal retail so the customer must seek it out and the seller has more knowledge. Unfortunately the media reviews of these products are also lacking.

It would take tests to see if capture is better with analog component in. That would depend on source quality and chipset performance. I would expect output to look better over component it the monitor is an HDTV. Best to avoid NTSC/PAL encoding where possible.

[dun4cheap]

I have the ADS Pyro AV Link at it works flawlessly and it bypasses MacroVision. I also have a Pinnacle Movie Box Deluxe. Both devices have worked without any problems. What I like about the Movie box deluxe is it allows me to use it for live preview from Avid Liquid and Studio as well. So I use it quite often. The ADS box will do the same however with the Pinnacle box I get live previews of yellow slices as well.

Anyhow, both boxes capture well. I have not tried to capture componend 480i or 480p with it though. Not sure what real advantage you would have with VHS anyways.

[edDV]

I have the ADS Pyro AV Link at it works flawlessly and it bypasses MacroVision. I also have a Pinnacle Movie Box Deluxe. Both devices have worked without any problems. What I like about the Movie box deluxe is it allows me to use it for live preview from Avid Liquid and Studio as well. So I use it quite often. The ADS box will do the same however with the Pinnacle box I get live previews of yellow slices as well.

What are "yellow slices"? Unrendered previews?

Anyhow, both boxes capture well. I have not tried to capture componend 480i or 480p with it though. Not sure what real advantage you would have with VHS anyways.

It won't do 480p only 480i. I emailed them and asked. VHS isn't the best test of capture quality. The S-Video or 480i analog component output of an HD cable box would be a good test. If it passes Macrovision well, you can also feed it from a good DVD player.

[ofbarea]

I have an older ADS Pyro AV Link Rev.C with the original firmware (lots of skip frames with noisy sources - ADS had a patch but I did not needed the firmware upgrade as my TBC prevented all problems from happening). I think analog 640i capture was available since revision A.

With this device I do all my captures using component.

I use a Panasonic DMR-ES10 DVD recorder as a sync filter and composite/s-video converter to component. Basically I connect my sources to the ES10 (through composite or S-Video - like VHS, 8mm, laserdisc), and the Pyro is connected to the DMR-ES10 (through component).

The captures are great, no sync problems and no lost frames ever.

Rev. A and B were kind of problematic under some situations I do not recall.

Rev. C had the lost frame problem, but this was fixed with a firmware update at ADS factory.

Later versions included the fix, but I do not had any experience with them.

[JohnnyMalaria]

Personally, I use any of my miniDV camcorders, a DSR-11 (my preference) or an old Sony DVMC-DA1 (when the computer can recognize it!)

With such a choice(!), I've never considered a more recent standalone box.

Typically, my sources are Hi8 or DVD.

BTW, the locked audio DIP switch is pointless. It has nothing at all to do with audio sync/drift. All DV devices must (according to the specification) be able to handle both locked and unlocked audio.

[edDV]

BTW, the locked audio DIP switch is pointless. It has nothing at all to do with audio sync/drift. All DV devices must (according to the specification) be able to handle both locked and unlocked audio.

But as a DV source, the switch determines whether the audio is locked or not. I can't see a case where one would want unlocked audio. There must be an example.

[JohnnyMalaria]

All NLEs and other DV encoders create unlocked audio (well, at least all the ones I've come across), so even if the source is locked, it soon gets unlocked. Also, the input DV can be assumed to be unlocked even if it is tagged (and encoded properly) as locked.

If an NLE had an option to generate locked audio, it would have to do some serious crunching of the audio for simple cuts. Just joining the clips together and using their existing DV data would break the locked audio as far as the specification goes, leading to unlocked audio but the locked audio flag set(!) But this is only true for NTSC.

It's a bit like having to maintain the color frame sequence in the analog world (DV encodes that, too).

The term "locked" is something of a misnomer. Take 48kHz audio. For unlocked, the specification states that the number of audio samples per frame can be between 1580 and 1620 with an average of 1601.60. i.e., there's flexibility to allow for different clock sources for the audio and video. For locked audio, the specification for NTSC requires a strict 5-frame sequence of samples per frame: 1600, 1602, 1602, 1602, 1602. The average comes out the same as for unlocked.

For PAL, the locked requirements are easier - 1920 samples per frame.

[edDV]

Here are Adam Wilt's thoughts on the subject. It was a bigger deal back in the early years of DV relating to the ways audio and video sample clocks were phase lock looped (tight or loose) factored by real world experience. The issues split as usual between consumer companies that didn't care vs. pro broadcast companies that were forced to care and fix it. The paper also raises interesting Type 1 vs. Type 2 DV format issues causing audio pops as the audio sync was forced.

I suspect the pro editor software has adapted by now. Consumer software may never bother to resync to audio.
http://www.adamwilt.com/DV-FAQ-tech.html#LockedAudio

[dun4cheap]

#1 The Locked Audio for the ADS Pyro and the Canopus is locked through the digital conversion process. When it is sent to the computer via firewire the audio is pcm. The reason many of us went to this type of capturing is because capture cards such as the ATI TV Wonder did not capture video and audio, it required the use of the sound card. Unfortunately for years we had audio sync problems. This went away with the anolog to digital converters above becuase they took the whole PC Timing of audio and video out of the loop. Now with faster computers this is rarely the case anymore.

Yellow Slices: Yellow slices are unrendered video from Liquid or Studios timeline. Studio and Liquid render transitions in the background as you edit. With BOB or MBD you can play your timeline using these boxes to give you a full screen preview on a TV while editing. With these two deviced if part of your timeline has yellow slices(unrendered areas, these devices can render in realtime without the timeline needed to all be green.) If you try this with the canopus ro ADS AV Pyro, the preview screen will usually go black during a yellow sequence.

I personally only use Liquid for editing anymore, the live preview does work with Studio 10 and 11 as well. It is a great feature, because it allows you to see overscans, and also NTSC color or PAl.

[dun4cheap]

By the way, I am the one that started the original threads on the ADS AV Pyro a couple of years ago. Originally they had a drop frame issue that was fixable via a TBS and one user mentioned, but ADS fixed the devices and also their users. It took like 6 months, but they came up with a firmware fix which required replacing a physical chip. In my case they paid for shipping and handling. I was very impressed.

By the way other audio and video capturing problems were due to over taxing CPU's as well. Lord Smurf probably could write a manual on all of this.

[edDV]

#1 The Locked Audio for the ADS Pyro and the Canopus is locked through the digital conversion process. When it is sent to the computer via firewire the audio is pcm. The reason many of us went to this type of capturing is because capture cards such as the ATI TV Wonder did not capture video and audio, it required the use of the sound card. Unfortunately for years we had audio sync problems. This went away with the anolog to digital converters above becuase they took the whole PC Timing of audio and video out of the loop. Now with faster computers this is rarely the case anymore.

Yellow Slices: Yellow slices are unrendered video from Liquid or Studios timeline. Studio and Liquid render transitions in the background as you edit. With BOB or MBD you can play your timeline using these boxes to give you a full screen preview on a TV while editing. With these two deviced if part of your timeline has yellow slices(unrendered areas, these devices can render in realtime without the timeline needed to all be green.) If you try this with the canopus ro ADS AV Pyro, the preview screen will usually go black during a yellow sequence.

I personally only use Liquid for editing anymore, the live preview does work with Studio 10 and 11 as well. It is a great feature, because it allows you to see overscans, and also NTSC color or PAl.

Interesting. In Vegas the unrendered areas play only if the CPU is fast enough for the realtime render and these play out through the Canopus ADVC fine for SD but sometimes choppy with native HDV but still play. I intend to test this with Cineform but if I recall correctly, Cineform gets rendered during import. Note in HDV mode the preview render includes downsize to 480i for IEEE-1394 preview. The levels and colorimetry seem to survive the down scale well enough.

Next HDV project I will be more picky with measurement.

[dun4cheap]

Without getting to off topic, I do a lot of HD editing nowwadays. Matter of fact I hardly use an SD timeline. I also use a buffalo linktheater because it will play my HD content right from my network. Frys was blowing the DVD Linktheater out the door for $89. It has a progressive dvd player, componet video out for 1080i, usb2 port for flash drives and external hard drives plus hardwired lan and wireless. It plays a wide variaty of media including elementry mpeg2 files, DIVX HD and wmv HD as well. With Blue ray and HD-DVD technology so young, I found it cheaper to buy 3 of these, one for each room then even consider messing around.

By the way when I bought the pyro link I had also been looking at the canopus, and the reason I ended up going with the Pyro is Circuit city was clearing them out for $100, back when the canopus was $400+ dollars. I have gotten my monies worthe, and I still use it to conver old 8mm, and VHS videos.

[edDV]

cool

[JohnnyMalaria]

The paper also raises interesting Type 1 vs. Type 2 DV format issues causing audio pops as the audio sync was forced.

Indeed. I've been preaching this for ages(!) Type 2 is simply a kludge by MS to enable *older* applications that use Video for Windows to access DV files. Type 1 is the "native" form - exactly as nature intended it - and is compatible with all DirectShow-based applications.

VfW is old (been around since Win3.1) and creates many problems. MS have been trying to get developers to stop using Vfw and start using DirectShow. It still amazes me how some of the big names still use it and can still only handle Type 2.

[Speed Demon]

It works on my ADVC-300. Hold down the two buttons...

I have the ADVC-300, too. I'd be curious: Do you know whether or not all the enhancements (LTBC etc.) of the 300 work when you disable MV? When I did that on an old tape, MV in fact was turned off, but it seemed to me the picture wasn't enhanced at all anymore. Do you know?

The only useful thing about ADVC-300, is it's volume level adjustment, white peak adjustment, and auto-gain control.

Interesting. Would you recommend to let all settings (contrast, saturation, colour etc.) be at the standard settings and just upper the settings you mentioned above? I would really like to know as I have problems to decide which settings to use to capture my VHS tapes.