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  1. Member
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    Hey kids - crazy idea.

    What would be stopping me from keeping an SDTV (in a closed curio cabinet) for SD viewing in my den, and on an adjacent wall having a large HDTV for HD content? Sat providers give you 2 or 3 rooms donít they? I could even use my current SDTV for this, and then if I have people over, just use the big HDTV regardless of signal source just for its size. So that idea wouldnít even cost me much.

    Is there any caveat Iím not thinking of? And could that work while subscribing to HD content via satellite? (Or I could just subscribe to SD sat and grab some of the HD content OTA.)

    This is the only way I can see to get the best out of the broadcasting signal reality as it exists today.
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  2. Member Grain's Avatar
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    Why not just watch both on the HDTV?
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  3. Member edDV's Avatar
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    I see the split as interlace TV (usually CRT under 34") vs. progressive TV (usually LCD or Plasma in larger size).

    VHS/S-VHS/8mm/Hi8 usually looks better on the CRT as does SD cable or sat for normal viewing.

    The progressive large screen allows SD to look better with a large group or HD better in all cases.

    I have both and I live in California which has very high summer power charges. I watch small SD during air conditioning hours and large HD in the evening when the windows are open. Welcome to the future y'all.
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    Originally Posted by Grain
    Why not just watch both on the HDTV?
    Cuz people keep telling me SD (like from sat) won't look too hot on a large HDTV.
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  5. Member edDV's Avatar
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    Originally Posted by LT9000
    Originally Posted by Grain
    Why not just watch both on the HDTV?
    Cuz people keep telling me SD (like from sat) won't look too hot on a large HDTV.
    Depends on the HDTV. For SD to look good you need a better HDTV. Otherwise, if your room is large enough, just move back until it looks good.
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  6. Member
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    Originally Posted by edDV
    Originally Posted by LT9000
    Originally Posted by Grain
    Why not just watch both on the HDTV?
    Cuz people keep telling me SD (like from sat) won't look too hot on a large HDTV.
    Depends on the HDTV. For SD to look good you need a better HDTV. Otherwise, if your room is large enough, just move back until it looks good.
    Any recomendations for that? I have been strongly considering the Samsung LNT4065F 40" 1080p LCD HDTV.

    http://www.amazon.com/Samsung-LNT4065F-1080p-LCD-HDTV/dp/B000OE02G4/ref=pd_bbs_sr_1/10...9063021&sr=1-1

    But I really was wanting 50 inches or bigger.
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  7. Member edDV's Avatar
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    Originally Posted by LT9000
    Originally Posted by edDV
    Originally Posted by LT9000
    Originally Posted by Grain
    Why not just watch both on the HDTV?
    Cuz people keep telling me SD (like from sat) won't look too hot on a large HDTV.
    Depends on the HDTV. For SD to look good you need a better HDTV. Otherwise, if your room is large enough, just move back until it looks good.
    Any recomendations for that? I have been strongly considering the Samsung LNT4065F 40" 1080p LCD HDTV.

    http://www.amazon.com/Samsung-LNT4065F-1080p-LCD-HDTV/dp/B000OE02G4/ref=pd_bbs_sr_1/10...9063021&sr=1-1

    But I really was wanting 50 inches or bigger.
    The new Samsungs are very good IMO. I am very familliar with the LNT4665F (46") and like it. SD off the HD cable box looks good to me. The new Sony's (Bravia XBR4/5) come out this month. Samsung and Sony are at the top of the LCD heap but also look at the Panasonic plasmas for a large room.
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  8. Member
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    Originally Posted by edDV
    Originally Posted by LT9000
    Originally Posted by edDV
    Originally Posted by LT9000
    Originally Posted by Grain
    Why not just watch both on the HDTV?
    Cuz people keep telling me SD (like from sat) won't look too hot on a large HDTV.
    Depends on the HDTV. For SD to look good you need a better HDTV. Otherwise, if your room is large enough, just move back until it looks good.
    Any recomendations for that? I have been strongly considering the Samsung LNT4065F 40" 1080p LCD HDTV.

    http://www.amazon.com/Samsung-LNT4065F-1080p-LCD-HDTV/dp/B000OE02G4/ref=pd_bbs_sr_1/10...9063021&sr=1-1

    But I really was wanting 50 inches or bigger.
    The new Samsungs are very good IMO. I am very familliar with the LNT4665F (46") and like it. SD off the HD cable box looks good to me. The new Sony's (Bravia XBR4/5) come out this month. Samsung and Sony are at the top of the LCD heap but also look at the Panasonic plasmas for a large room.
    Hey you plasma owners, is it true plasma can cause the temp in the room to rise when in use? I've even heard some say LCD can do this. We have hot summers where I live so that's a concern.
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  9. Member ChrissyBoy's Avatar
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    Hey you plasma owners, is it true plasma can cause the temp in the room to rise when in use? I've even heard some say LCD can do this. We have hot summers where I live so that's a concern.
    My Tosh LCD is like having a radiator on all the time!
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  10. Just out of curiosity, if I told you Apple Pie didn't taste too good with ice cream, would you refuse to try it?

    IMO, the SD signal on HD tv problem is a myth, sort of. Crappy source on a 50" TV will look crappy, period. Some HD material ain't so great on my 42", some SD looks just fine. 36" tube is about the same, it maybe masks the difference between somewhat crappy and ungodly crappy, but as has been said, just back up a little.

    As for driving both, most receivers have HD and SD connections running at the same time, no need for a second hookup. Downsampled HD on an SD display is a significant improvement over the original SD feed.
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  11. Member edDV's Avatar
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    Originally Posted by LT9000

    Hey you plasma owners, is it true plasma can cause the temp in the room to rise when in use? I've even heard some say LCD can do this. We have hot summers where I live so that's a concern.
    Plasmas usually consume more power (and emit same as heat) compared to an LCD of the same screen size. New LCD technology will use low power LED arrays for back light instead of current CCFL further reducing power and heat.

    A 50" plasma can consume over 400 Watts. Air conditioners are less than 100% efficient so the effect on your power bill is more than 2x 400W and that is at the marginal rate. In California summer marginal power rates can reach 50 cents per KWh.

    Don't forget to factor in the audio system and the 60W cable box that is always on.
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    Originally Posted by ChrissyBoy
    Hey you plasma owners, is it true plasma can cause the temp in the room to rise when in use? I've even heard some say LCD can do this. We have hot summers where I live so that's a concern.
    My Tosh LCD is like having a radiator on all the time!
    Maybe it is true then. My AC at the house barely cuts it as it is in the summer.

    Somebody just pointed this out to me:

    Samsung HLT5087S 50" Slim LED Engine 1080p DLP HDTV

    http://www.amazon.com/Samsung-HLT5087S-Slim-Engine-1080p/dp/B000N50RLO/ref=sr_1_19/105...123653&sr=1-19

    I had previously ruled out DLP b/c of the bulb replacements and rainbow artifact risk, but this LED based DLP does not need bulb replacement, runs cooler, and it may eliminate the rainbow problem. It got extremely high ratings there on Amazon. At $1650, it seems like alot of bang for the buck - and it may run alot cooler than LCD or Plasma.

    Then there are also LcOS based HDTV's.
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  13. Member ricoman's Avatar
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    The lower SD channels on cable are definitely piss-poor on an HD TV, even though cable claims that they are all digital. The upper SD channels on cable are not bad, the HD channels are awesome. Satellite TV supposedly is all true digital and the SD channels are of decent quality.
    On the subject of TVs I have a 3 yr. old Sony 50" Rear Projection LCD TV and (knock on wood) have not had to change the bulb yet (and it gets a lot of use). Do not discount these RP TVs, my Sony has a way better picture than my sister's brand new Samsung 50" LCD TV (that the salesman told her was the top-of-the-line best). I also have a new Olevia 32" LCD in the bedroom that I like very much, but again, the picture quality is better on my Sony LCD RPTV. Also, since the 300 watt bulb is contained, it throws off no heat. So, at half the price, if you can put up with the 17" depth of the LCD rear project TV, it is a great buy.
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  14. Member edDV's Avatar
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    When they don't publish power specs it probably means they don't want you to know how high it is.
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  15. Member ricoman's Avatar
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    A little trick for watching those lower SD stations is to run a second coaxial cable thru a splitter (before the cable box) directly to the TV. The picture qualitiy is a little better if you don't run the analog picture thru the cable box due to having to convert the analog to digital and back to analog.
    I love children, girl children... about 16-40
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    Originally Posted by ricoman
    A little trick for watching those lower SD stations is to run a second coaxial cable thru a splitter (before the cable box) directly to the TV. The picture qualitiy is a little better if you don't run the analog picture thru the cable box due to having to convert the analog to digital and back to analog.
    Is all this moot if you have satellite like dish or direct TV?
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  17. Originally Posted by ricoman
    since the 300 watt bulb is contained, it throws off no heat.
    Then where do you think the heat goes?
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  18. Member ricoman's Avatar
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    Satellite TV is true digital so the picture quality is better than regular SD.
    Of course the 300 watt bulb throws off heat, but it is contained in the unit on a rear projection tv, you don't feel the heat on the outside. Others were talking about air conditioning and such, you don't notice it with the RPTV.
    I love children, girl children... about 16-40
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  19. Member edDV's Avatar
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    Originally Posted by ricoman
    Satellite TV is true digital so the picture quality is better than regular SD.
    Of course the 300 watt bulb throws off heat, but it is contained in the unit on a rear projection tv, you don't feel the heat on the outside. Others were talking about air conditioning and such, you don't notice it with the RPTV.
    If you use air conditioning the heat adds to the load. Explain "contained".
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  20. Originally Posted by ricoman
    Of course the 300 watt bulb throws off heat, but it is contained in the unit on a rear projection tv, you don't feel the heat on the outside.
    A 300 watt lamp consumes 300 watts of electricity (maybe less if you have the brightness turned down). All that energy is converted to heat and light. The heat has to go somewhere. If it was somehow contained within the lamp housing the housing would get hotter and hotter until it went supernova. Even if the bulb was 100 percent efficient and all the energy was turned into light, that light energy would be converted to heat by the walls, furniture, etc, (except for what escaped trough the windows).
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  21. Member ricoman's Avatar
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    You guys are getting way too technical. As I said, OF COURSE the bulb throws off heat, it doesn't disappear, you just don't feel it because of the space in the RPTV. That is all I'm saying. I took physics and electricity too. I am talking relatively to the plasma and lcd tv's where you can feel the heat generated. Is this really worth arguing about? Simply put, compared to plasma and lcd tv's the you feel less heat thrown off externally from the units. The heat isn't contained by the lamp housing which is quite small, it is spread over the interior of the 50" x 17" unit. This kind of dilutes the heat so you barely feel it when you touch it.
    I love children, girl children... about 16-40
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  22. It's still 300 watts of power coming out of the TV and ultimately heating up the room.
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  23. Member ricoman's Avatar
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    Originally Posted by jagabo
    It's still 300 watts of power coming out of the TV and ultimately heating up the room.
    Ok, you obviously just like to argue. You win. Have a happy.
    I love children, girl children... about 16-40
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  24. Originally Posted by LT9000
    Originally Posted by ricoman
    A little trick for watching those lower SD stations is to run a second coaxial cable thru a splitter (before the cable box) directly to the TV. The picture qualitiy is a little better if you don't run the analog picture thru the cable box due to having to convert the analog to digital and back to analog.
    Is all this moot if you have satellite like dish or direct TV?
    Moot? Well all Satellite transmissions from either provide are all digital whether HDTV or SDTV so you don't use the TV tuner. You use the satellite box to tune.
    Difference between Dish and DirecTv DVRs for example is that DirecTV has two tuners which can be 1 sat and 1 ota mode or 2 sat in a HR20 for example and the same outputs for HDMI or S-Video. Dishnetwork VIP622 or VIP722 has two satellite tuners and 1 OTA tuner and can feed two TVs different content at the same time. 1 HDTV and 1 or more SDTV. Other Dishnetwork Non DVRs can fed two tv sets with different channels at the same time too.
    I find that the Dishnetwork SD channels look ok for me on a 32" Westinghouse lowcost LCD .
    Hope that helps.
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    Digital Satellite TV could be better analogue TV if the bitrate and the framesize is top notch. Unfortunately, this is not the rule. With the typical 480x480 or 544x480 @ 3000kb/s, don't except quality...

    Later Samsung's (and latest Sony's, they use the same Samsung panels after all) add frames produced by morphing methods on the transmissions and that makes the picture look better on motion matters. For better picture -if that is possible... - you need a DVB receiver with upscale abilities, but I don't know if you have those choices in the USA.

    There are alternatives but advanced and somehow "exotic" for the average American: Direct TV use Videoguard encryption and Dish Network use Nagravision 2 encryption. For those 2 encryption systems there are Common Access Modules (CAM) that can handle the subscription cards, and that makes it possible to use them with your own DVB receiver and not the official one. It is also possible to use those cards with computer DVB cards, using smartmouses, but that is also another thing, even more advance. Even card share is possible that way (In Europe, card sharing inside your house is a grey area considered at the time legal).

    The point is that those other Receivers may be better on terms of picture quality, connectivity and abilities to communicate with a PC (so to stream the channel direct to your PC's hardisk for example) and in the case of DVB cards you can use a HTPC for whatever you dream off.

    Oh: And satellite TV is not "True digital". The transmission part is digital. The source of the channels could be whatever. The way the signal goes to the transmission center could also be whatever. The only sure thing is the signal is digitized and packed on the transmission center for the satellite broadcast. And there is when most problems appear.

    Imagine this: It's like capturing on your main PC and using an analogue card a TV channel, digitize it on the fly using CBR mpeg 2 and 10.000 bitrate, stream it through your LAN to your bedroom PC, that converts it to SVCD, send it to a media extender like hauppauge's mvp on your kids room and watch them from there... What ends up to the kids room is "digital". But it is far from "all digital"
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  26. True, Sepends on the source. However in my house the Satellite looked so much better than the cable ever did. Cable channels (many) had interference and such. CBS sonetimes looked OK, Fox some of the time looked like snow falling down at an angle. Not weak signal snow btw, it ws interference that looked like snow blowing at an angle as it fell. NBC was usually OK, Showtime suffered from intermittent interference from 2 way radios. And so on. The Satellite may have been lower res but at least it was always clear.
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  27. Member edDV's Avatar
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    Cable quality varies locally even within a city due to age of equipment and progress in the various levels of digital conversion. Equipment is being upgraded to provide new revenue sources like phone, Internet and VOD but even these are being layered into older systems.

    A new state of art cable system with fiber to the last mile and 750-1GHz bandwidth can produce significantly higher picture quality than satellite but that depends on how the local cable company allocates bandwidth. The basic trade-offs are # of analog channels vs. digital, #digital channels vs other services like VOD, Internet and phone and #SD digital channels vs. HD digital channels.

    Satellite is more bandwidth constrained so emphasis is on advanced MPeg4 compression for more channels and HD. The same MPeg4 compression can be added to cable systems at some point to double or triple capacity but that means all new hardware investment.
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  28. Originally Posted by edDV
    Cable quality varies locally even within a city due to age of equipment and progress in the various levels of digital conversion. Equipment is being upgraded to provide new revenue sources like phone, Internet and VOD but even these are being layered into older systems.

    A new state of art cable system with fiber to the last mile and 750-1GHz bandwidth can produce significantly higher picture quality than satellite but that depends on how the local cable company allocates bandwidth. The basic trade-offs are # of analog channels vs. digital, #digital channels vs other services like VOD, Internet and phone and #SD digital channels vs. HD digital channels.

    Satellite is more bandwidth constrained so emphasis is on advanced MPeg4 compression for more channels and HD. The same MPeg4 compression can be added to cable systems at some point to double or triple capacity but that means all new hardware investment.
    This is one area where Satellite may be ahead of cable companies they just need to change mpeg2 encoders at the uplink for better efficiency. I believe Satellite was the first to use StatMuxing to allow variable bitrate on channels to allow more per transponder. Most likely first to Mpeg4. I believe Dishnetwork has finished the transition to mpeg4 for their HD boxes now. I believe they stated monday night 39 national HD channels Plus locals where available and 18(?) Regional sports networks in HD. I believe the last addition was History Channel HD this month and 6 PPV HD coming thi smonth. All without adding a new satellite so Mpeg4 must be working for them. DirecTV's new satellite is supposed to go live anyday now allowing more HD for them.

    So bottom line to go mpeg4 means new encoders and boxes for Satellite and Cable. The longer you delay the more mpeg2 boxes will have to be swapped later. Advantage Satellite for doing it already.

    U have bothe Satellite for TV and cable for Internet. 20+ mb throughput. So I'm happy.
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  29. Member edDV's Avatar
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    Originally Posted by TBoneit
    Originally Posted by edDV
    Cable quality varies locally even within a city due to age of equipment and progress in the various levels of digital conversion. Equipment is being upgraded to provide new revenue sources like phone, Internet and VOD but even these are being layered into older systems.

    A new state of art cable system with fiber to the last mile and 750-1GHz bandwidth can produce significantly higher picture quality than satellite but that depends on how the local cable company allocates bandwidth. The basic trade-offs are # of analog channels vs. digital, #digital channels vs other services like VOD, Internet and phone and #SD digital channels vs. HD digital channels.

    Satellite is more bandwidth constrained so emphasis is on advanced MPeg4 compression for more channels and HD. The same MPeg4 compression can be added to cable systems at some point to double or triple capacity but that means all new hardware investment.
    This is one area where Satellite may be ahead of cable companies they just need to change mpeg2 encoders at the uplink for better efficiency. I believe Satellite was the first to use StatMuxing to allow variable bitrate on channels to allow more per transponder. Most likely first to Mpeg4. I believe Dishnetwork has finished the transition to mpeg4 for their HD boxes now. I believe they stated monday night 39 national HD channels Plus locals where available and 18(?) Regional sports networks in HD. I believe the last addition was History Channel HD this month and 6 PPV HD coming thi smonth. All without adding a new satellite so Mpeg4 must be working for them. DirecTV's new satellite is supposed to go live anyday now allowing more HD for them.

    So bottom line to go mpeg4 means new encoders and boxes for Satellite and Cable. The longer you delay the more mpeg2 boxes will have to be swapped later. Advantage Satellite for doing it already.

    U have bothe Satellite for TV and cable for Internet. 20+ mb throughput. So I'm happy.
    Yes, MPeg4 is easier implemented on satellite making it easier to add HD and/or additional SD channels. The "1000 HD channels" downlink capacity is mostly consumed by local HD and sports networks up/down with only a few available in each local market. A given satellite customer will see maybe half the local stations vs. "modern" cable but will have double or more national HD channels available. Local PBS is particularly affected where satellite customers might get one local + a national feed, where local cable may have 4-12 PBS subchannels at any time. So, cable has advantage for number of local broadcast, PBS, foreign language and sports channels where satellite has advantage for number of national HD channels.

    Cable has advantage for "extended basic" analog channels + free QAM SD/HD digital local channels making it possible to get maybe 60 channels without a cable box. Satellite needs a tuner per TV or VCR. Cable can offer more national HD but this option comes from either expanding local capacity or reducing the analog channels offered. Each analog channel takes the place of ~8 SD or 2 HD MPeg2 channels. Cable has to trade the interests of their basic analog service customers vs. high $$$ premium HD customers.

    Cable has additional service advantages that they can layer in to keep the high end customer from going to satellite. In addition to internet, phone and local sports packages cable can add more and more VOD (video on demand) as both "pay per view" and "free" server fed programming without consuming much analog bandwidth. The number of programs offered is determined by local server investment so zip codes with high HD demand can be compensated with more HD VOD. I'm beginning to be sold on the VOD idea. For premium HD series like "Sopranos", "Oz" or "Larry David" the entire series to date is available as HD VOD without need to program recordings. Same for series like CSI (CBS) in HD and maybe a couple of dozen MTV, A&E or TNT series in SD. As of this week, HD only customers can watch all the new NBC season pilots (e.g. Bionic Woman, Chuck, Journeyman, Life) on demand now before they are aired. This is a major advantage that cable can play for the time shift customer and is limited only by server capacity. It also allows cable to insert local specific advertising into these VOD programs.

    Adding to the mix is telco following the IPTV model with huge servers for scheduled and demand programming.



    PS: I don't know if my Comcast fiber fed small mountain town is typical but here is a sample of what is on the ever changing "On Demand" VOD service.

    HD movies "free" - 11
    HD movies Encore - 9
    HD movies HBO - 6 (similar for others like Stars, Showtime)
    HD movies $Pay per view - 22

    HD series HBO - 4 (SD - 11)

    We don't yet get National Geographic HD or History HD but 4 rotating shows are available for each on VOD.
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  30. I guess I'm the strange one out? The idea of VOD has never done much for me. I have more content than I have time to watch now. I probably have 70Gb of video I haven't watched on two USB EHDs for use with my DVR now.

    I'll probably hook my DVR up to the Router and check out the Internet VOD dish is planning to roll out soon just from curiousity.
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