pv231 xvcd audio out of sync after editing

[xvcdfan]

After reading a lot about the pv231 I finally picked one up. Big thanks to skittelsen and everyone else that has posted great info.

I have been ripping DVDs and finally realized after a lot of testing that I prefer xvcd over svcd for playback from a cdr, similar quality but smoother with the same file size. Anyway I usually save my xvcd clips at a bitrate between 2400-3000kbps because it looks ok on a 27 inch tv.

The transition from ripping to capturing has given me only one problem I can't seem to figure out. Using the standard vcd default there is no problem editing the captured file, other than using tmpg to remux it to standard after editing it. However when I try to edit xvcd captured streams the audio gets way out of sync.

If I just use a captured xvcd clip and don't edit it everything plays fine. That is if the file is small enough to fit on a cdr. But once I edit it, the audio gets way out of sync. If I clip a scene from the middle the audio is out of sync from the beginning. If I just clip the ending, the audio seems to get progressively worse.

I use the "Audio Compensation" setting of -100 for anything above standard bitrates and the captures seem to be in sync even with a 2 hour capture. I leave all the other settings as standard default. Or as changed in skittelsen's reg.

I have tried using tmpg remux before editing, and after editing, and before and after editing. Have edited with tmpg, womble and ifilm edit. All with the same results. Has anyone else run into this problem? And more importantly, what can I change to fix it. Thanks for the help.

[bryanjohnfields]

I think this is an xVCD problem. If you check the Editing, Cutting and Joining Forum there are several discussions on the topic. It seams to be the consensus there that TMPGEnc will not edit xVCD’s correctly. I haven’t tried Womble, but iFilm Edit should cut them fine.

In the past I have Captured Avi and converted to xVCD. I had the same problem. My fix was to edit the Avi with VirtualDub and then convert the edited Avi. This usually works.

I too am getting a PC231, and hope your problem can be fixed easily because I plan to mainly make xVCD’s.

If you read this and have time to respond, does the software for the PC231 have the ability to schedule captures? I am planning to use it as Virtual VCR and would hate to have to be at the computer each time I want to capture a show.

[xvcdfan]

Thanks for the info, I'll look into it. It's strange because I've never had a problem with editing xvcd's before, even in tmpg. After doing some more experimenting I am able to edit a different tape capture without a problem, it seems strange that it would be specific to one tape.
I wonder if macrovision has anything to do with it? Oh well, on to more experimenting.

Also, the instructions are pretty sparse, does anyone know what the "Audio Adjustment Periodically (Samples)" is exactly and what the range is?

The pv231 is only a capture card and doesn't have a schedule option (however it does have a capture duration option). The pv233 is the capture and tuner card and will probably do what you want. If you do a search on this site for pv233 you will probably find the info you need.

[bryanjohnfields]

Thanks for the info about the PC231, I am not interested in the PC233 because I don't need the tuner.

Another thing you may want to try is don't edit you mpg but cut out what you don't want. I have this in the past for the same or simular problem. Make a couple of copies of you MPG, edit the first one to remove the unwanted video to the begining of you VCD (I usually start recording 3 to 5 minute early), check for audio sync, then cut off everything from the first comercial to the end of the file. Open the second file, cut away everything from the begining of the file to the end of the first comercial break, check audio, delete everything after the beginning of the second comercial break. Keep doing this and you will end up with 3 to 7 files, make you xVCD out of those files.

One more question, if you get the chance to answer, how long will the PC231 record? Hard drive space is not an issue, I have over 90gig and I will be adding another 60gig this week. If I want to record a show at 8:00pm and 2:00am but will be out for the evening, can I set it to start at 7:30 when I leave and have it record for 8 hours or is there a time limit?

Oh, one more thing, do you think its software will work with a external schduler, like Scheduled tasks in Win2000?

[Anonymous65]

I have captured several 3 hour VCD files, but it's almost impossible to edit or search the files, most likely because they are so long.

[markm]

What are you using for editing? What I found (purely my theory) is that any of the editors that do frame accurate editing will throw thing out of sync. It probably has something to do with the fact that they have to re-encode a small part of the video to accurately cut to the frame. I think it's this encoding that throws things off.

Try using a GOP accurate editor to do the edits and see if that helps. I used to use Ifilm, I now use M2-Edit Pro. FWIW, M2-Edit Pro seems to be able to do frame accurate cuts without losing sync.

Hope this helps. I spent a ton of time battling with this, and finally got it down to a process that works for me, so it can be done.

BTW, you might also try re-muxing the edited video as a non-standard VCD. I *have* to do this or the sound gets screwed up on both my players.

[magicmycote]

xsvcd fan, can you tell us your experience with the pv231? Is the software buggy for you? Does it crash, how often? Also what are your system specs, OS, Motherboard, Processor, soundcard etc. Thanks!

[Valnar]

Where can you buy this product? Does it keep the audio/video in sync while capturing? How is the quality?

And most importantly, does it copy Macrovision enabled VHS tapes?

Robert

[xvcdfan]

To Valnar and magicmycoat: If you do a search on "pv231" you'll find the link on buying and comparisons and a lot more info than I can remember. As for the things I don't remember being posted before: There is no problem capturing Macrovision protected tapes. Audio and video are in perfect sync if you capture in standard compliant vcd format. I purchased mine for about $115 us with shipping. The only bugs I have come across are that you can't see the video when you are cueing forward or reverse on a vcr. The audio on my computer system sometimes goes away, although when I reboot and playback the captured file the sound is intact. And you must run the captured file through Tmpg and remux it in order to edit or playback on a standalone player. Otherwise Nero will give you a blank time duration on the file, resulting in no playback. My system is a Dell Precision 330 1.3ghz pentium 4.

Otherwise it runs well, although I am still attempting to figure out how to capture xvcd files without the audio sync problem, I'm think it is only a setting issue although I'm not sure. That will be my next experiment. I did a search and translated the following from a website:

Audio Adjustment Periodically (Samples) - periodic Regulation of the audio:
Servants in order to eliminate eventual the progressive temporal phase-difference between images and sounds
that she can herself be verified in the course of recordings of long duration.
If the set up value is positive it indicates how many "samplings" are eliminates every 15 second ones to you
approximately, (the audio compensates the delay that it would have on the video), if negative indicates how many
"samplings" are inserted every 15 second ones approximately, (the audio compensate the advance payment on the video) .

I've been doing a bunch of experimenting using 30 minute captures at varying bitrates above the standard vcd and all the results gradually desync as the clip plays on. My previous posts may have been erroneous because I was only using 5 minute test clips. Also using any audio bitrate other than the standard 224 resulted in audio that was out of sync from the beginning.

My methodology was to leave all the settings as standard and only change the bitrate and type of editing. In every case playback of the raw capture with a software player (Sasami2k) would play all samples perfectly in sync. However after a raw capture was remuxed through Tmpg ("Simple Multiplex" or "Multiplex") the file would gradually get out of sync. Ifilm edit cannot load a raw capture. Womble's mpg2vcr can (although its best to multiplex it before and after), but the resulting edited clip also results in the sync problem. And as I stated in the beginning of the post, I could not get a raw capture burned with Nero to play on a standalone player. I used the following arbitrary bitrates using the slider adjustment rather than entering round numbers. 2098,2340,2692,2811,2930, and 3049. Each file was tested as follows using Tmpg ("simple multiplex" and "multiplex"):

raw file=perfect play on computer
Tmpg+raw file=gradual desync
raw file+edited with Womble=gradual desync
Tmpg+raw file+edited with Womble=gradual desync
Tmpg+raw file+edited with Ifilm=gradual desync
Tmpg+raw file+edited with Tmpg=gradual desync
raw file+editeed with Womble+Tmpg=gradual desync
Tmpg+raw file+edited with Womble+Tmpg=gradual desync
Tmpg+raw file+edited with Ifilm+Tmpg=gradual desync

Basically, after you run the raw file through Tmpg to make it compliant to Nero or Ifilm editor it gets gradually gets out of sync. I didn't have a timer to see if one was more out of sync than the others. I was just trying to find something that worked. But they all seemed about 1-1/2 seconds out of sync by the end of the clip.

My next experiment is to hold the bitrate constant and change the "Audio Adjustment Periodically (Samples)" option. I think this is the key. If anyone has had success in making a xvcd please post your settings. One tip if you are experimenting, use an excercise video for your test samples. You get a lot of motion and the instructors are always talking.

[xvcdfan]

I forgot to add that I always used the "MPEG-1 Video CD (non-standard)" setting for muxing the files in Tmpg.

[magicmycote]

Great info thx! I've read most of the posts about this card, and most comment on the unstable nature of the software and drivers. I was wondering if you had those crashes as well, and what operating system you use. If you could, could you tell me what brand (model if you know it) motherboard you have, and what OS?

Have you tried burning the raw (S)VCD using VCDEasy with 'update scan offsets' turned on? I've often times had unsuccessfully burned (S)VCDs with Nero turn out fine when imaged and burned with VCDEasy. Can't wait for your next experiment results!

[fravel]

Hi! Just my little two cents on the topic. I've never experienced out of sync audio with the PV231. For editing I use CinePlayer Editor. It is not GOP accurate, but if you play with a few frames back and forth you'll get pretty good results. I have never remuxed the captured or edited files and Nero burns them pefectly and I have no problems playing the VCD in a standalone player (Ampex, Memorex, Sony and others). I wonder what might be causing your problems with Nero and standalone players.
You might want to ask for advice to Skittelsen.
Good Luck!

[Tony Yip]

Same problem as xvcdfan experienced.

PV233 raw file = no audio sync problem on PC
PV233 raw file + tmpeg remux = gradual sync problem
PV233 raw file + tmpeg demux + tmpeg remux = gradual desync problem

Tried tmpeg ver 12a, ver 2.02, ver 2.51

Was trying to capture an 45 minutes clip and by the end of the clip, the
audio was behind the video by about a 1 to 1.5 seconds.

Haven't tried the audio compensation setting yet. What should I set it at.

This is strange.

[fravel]

Hi, Tony Yip!
When you say out of synch, do you mean the final encoded file, or what you hear on your speakers as you encode? If it's while encoding this is natural for pv231-233 but the final product is perfectly synched.
Try e-mailing Skittelsen:
http://steve.kittelsen.com/pv231/
That's his site and there you'll find his e-mail. He is the expert on pv231-233.
Good Luck!

[bryanjohnfields]

I have a similar problem with xVCD files from my PV231.

http://www.vcdhelp.com/phpBB/viewtopic.php?t=80556

My plea for help is at the link above. First let me say this card works great on my computer. It creates very good MPG files. The quality is almost as good as the old capture AVI and convert method. I have captured several VCD and xVCD files, edited out commercials, and edited programs. I am using MyFlix, and have no audio sync problem on my computer.

Like an idiot, I only tested my xVCD’s on my computer. I have burned several discs and they all have played fine on my computer, but last night I put one in my Pioneer DV333 play, and whoa!!! something wasn’t right. Video was bad, and Audio was worse. I tried several things including demuxing and remuxing which fixed the video/audio problem, but audio is out of sync, but only on my DVD player, not on my computer with WinDVD or PowerDVD.

I’m going to keep an eye on this thread and keep experimenting. If I can’t find a fix soon, my PV231 is going on ebay and I’ll just get a bigger drive to capture and convert AVI’s


BTW I have no problem at all with Standard VCD on the PV231 and have not had many problem with Capturing and Converting AVI's into xVCD with my other capture cards.

[Tony Yip]

It is out of sync when I preview it while capturing. I was expecting that.

I'm capturing at 2300 kb/sec (xvcd format)

When I view the raw capture mpg file, there is NO sync problem

But when I use tmpeg to remux it, it gradually gets out of sync at the
end of the file (1 to 1.5 sec) on a 45 minute capture. This is exactly what
xvcdfan saw when he did his captures. The audio lags behind the video by
1 to 1.5 seconds.

I haven't used any of the Audio Compensation or Audio Adjustment
Periodically parameters in the settings. Do you know if I'm supposed to adjust any of these settings when using xvcd capture mode? Not really sure what these settings do.

I noticed that my raw capture file was 804 megs and the re-muxed file
was about 813 megs.

I'm re-muxing because when I use VCDEasy to create the bin file for burning, the mpg file has to be multiplexed.

Fravel, have you seen this problem? Maybe I need another program to re-mux the raw capture file.

Any help would be appreciated.

[fravel]

Tony Yip and bryanjohnfields:
No, I have never seen this problem, but I do little xvcds. I mainly use it for capturing vhs of old western movies for VCD. I've heard that MyFlix edited mpegs aren't very good. And you have to check your Pioneer DVD player grade of compatibility with xvcds. About the remuxing issue, if you use Nero for burning probably you won't have to remux.
As for the synch issue when remuxing, why don't you try to tweak the audio compensation adjustment in the PV231-33 software to the difference in synch? It might help. And, are you using Skittelsen's registry tweaks for the pv231-33? They fix some problems. You can get them at his website.

[Tony Yip]

The raw capture file does not work with Nero unles you re-mux it first
with tmpeg (or other app).

How did you burn it with Nero?

Now that a couple of us have seen this problem with xvcd's, we know that there is a problem after the re-mux of the file.

Maybe skittelsen has see this problem also.

Fravel, what did you set the audio compensation to?

It seems like xvcdfan already changed the audio compensation to -100ms
and he still saw the problem.

I would be less worried if the a/v sync happened on the raw captured
file but what does the re-mux in tmpeg do to cause the gradual desync
on the remuxed file?

[markm]

I do this all the time without any problems. If the audio is out of sync, it's very subtle, certainly not 1-1.5 seconds off.

I capture from the tuner at 2200.
I edit out the commercials using MyFlix Pro 4.0
I re-mux to non standard VCD using TMPGenc
I burn to VCD using VCDeasy
They play fine on the PC, and both my Apex's (5131/1500)

What I've noticed:
If I don't remux to non-standard VCD, audio skips on my players (but is in sync).
If I edit at all, with anything other than CineFilm or MyFlix 4.0, audio gets progressively out of sync with each edit.

It's possible it's the player. I've got an episode I'll be cutting up and putting on CD over the next few days. I'd be willing to make it available for someone to download in bin/cue format to try and see if it's the player, or the tools/process.

[Tony Yip]

When I view the un-altered 45 minute capture off of the PV233 card,
the a/v are in sync.

When I re-mux this un-altered file using tmpeg, the a/v are not in sync
anymore. What I did after this was to de-multiplex the re-muxed file
and i noticed that the video portion of the file was 45:30:00 while the audio portion was 45:31:50. This is probably why the audio is lagging behind the video by about 1-1.5 sec. There has been no editing of the
mpg file at all, just remuxed using tmpeg.

I will de-mux the original captured mpg file to see the audio and video
are of the same time length.

I wonder if it is the sound card that could bee causing this. I am using
a SB Live. I've heard a couple of problems with SB Live and Via
chipsets.

[Tony Yip]

markm, what version of Tmpeg are you using to re-mux the PV233
mpg file?

I only see the a/v sync problem after I have re-muxed the file.

Forgot to mention that the a/v sync gets progressively worse. That is, the
file is synced at the beginning of the file and then gets worse as you
get to the end of the file.

[vcdfreak]

Saw this forum posted ~2 months ago:

http://www.vcdhelp.com/phpBB/viewtopic.php?topic=70686&forum=2

Hope this helps. Just ordered 1 PV233. No chance to try yet.

After all these replies, my conclusion is to make sure that TMPGEnc is configured the right way (set to non VCD standard) and use the right software to edit for XVCD.

[Tony Yip]

vcdfreak, I followed all of the hints in the link you had and my mpeg1
file is still not in sync.

Updated testing, captured a 44 minute mpeg1 clip:

PV233 raw file = no audio sync problem on PC
PV233 raw file + tmpeg remux = gradual sync problem
PV233 raw file + tmpeg demux + tmpeg remux = gradual sync problem

I demuxed the files to see if the audio and video time lengths are the same and I found the following:

PV233 raw file: m1v = 43:48:206 mp2 = 43:49:067
PV233 raw file + tmpeg remux m1v = 43:48:206 mp2 = 43:47:931

As you can see, the PV233 raw files don't match up, the audio file is about 0.8 sec longer than the video file. I watched the clip but the audio and video seem to sync up properly.

The PV233 raw file + tmpeg remux files don't match up, the audio file is about 0.3 seconds longer than the video file. But when I watch the clip, it seems the audio delay is about 1 sec.

I don't understand this, after the remux the audio and video files times seem to match up better than before the remux but the audio/video sync
is 1 sec off. You would think the sync would still be there.

Thee only thing I haven't done is to take the original m1v and mp2 files from the raw capture (0.8 sec difference) and stretch/shrink the audio portion using Sound Forge to match the audio time up to the video time
and remux to see what happens.

If this works, it seems to be a real hassle capturing with the PV233 to have to do all these extra steps to get an A/V sync. Might as well go back to using my WinTV GO card to capture then convert using tmpeg where I didn't have any A/V sync problems. I'm not gaining any time if I have all these A/V sync issues with the PV233 card.

I'll have some more results tomorrow.

[fravel]

Well, it seems the prob is in 'muxing. I always leave the the default audio compensation. As I said before, I mostly create VCDs and burn normaly with Nero. That's why I'm very satisfied with my PV231. Do you try to burn in Nero as non-standard compliant VCD? Have you tried to burn with other proggie?
Good Luck!

[Tony Yip]

I capture XVCD at about 2300 kb/sec then I remux using tmpeg as a mpeg1 non-standard file.

The problem with the a/v sync I see is not with the burning but after I capture and remux with tmpeg.

Can you tell me what settings you usee for the audio compensation and
audio adjustment?

[markm]

I'm using one of the 2.0 versions of TMPGenc. Can you make a short clip that exhibits this problem available for download someplace? I'll see if I can reproduce what you're seeing. Maybe it's TMPGenc.

Like I said, I do this all the time, but it could very well be that I'm just not noticing a slight loss of audio sync. I think I'd see a second difference, but won't bet on it